Just braggin' about my new baby

[TheSollyLama]

Went out yesterday and sold off a Walther P38 to raise money for a big game rifle.

I could get any gun in the $500-600 range. The options at that level are limitless.

So what did I choose to make my 'one gun'? The gun I'll hunt everything from pronghorn to elk and bear?

A Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe in .257 Wby Mag.

A bit of an unusual choice, but I have always admired Roy Weatherby and the .257 was his personal favorite. That's a heck of a testimonial!

I realize it's actually a Howa 1500, I have a Howa in .22-250 that I like, so that wasn't an issue. But to be honest, the only reason I got a 'Weatherby' Vanguard instead of a Remington or Winchester rifle is for that .257 Wby Mag cartridge.

It's just a round I've been intrigued by and something about the name Weatherby has made for itself both in the US and in Africa.

Not the most practical choice- since it's basically a slight improvement over the 270 Win or 30-06. And ammo is about 3 bucks a shot!

But the snob in me said Weatherby. The punk in me said be different. The hunter in me said make your legacy with Roy's favorite round.

Now to pick out a scope worthy of this chambering................

[Adam Helmer]

TheSollyLama,

Welcome to this Forum; I see this is your first post.

I hope that P-38 was not a mint condition early war pistol with holster and capture papers.

The .257 Weatherby is not an improvement over the .30-06 in my humble opinion; the heaviest bullets listed in the Lyman reloading manual are 117 grains! Just what bears do you plan shooting with that .257W? Maybe a .270W or .300 Weatherby would be better bear medicine. Use the .340W for Kodiaks.

Again, welcome to the Forum.

Adam

[TheSollyLama]

I've hunted bears with a .30-30 back east and never felt under gunned. Unless it's a griz or polar bear, I'd feel just fine with a .257 Wby.

Roy Weatherby killed a cape buffalo with a 100 grain round from a .257 Wby, so I don't think it's under gunned for anything in North America.

It's an improvement in terms of trajectory over the .270, which is an improvement over the .30-06 sprg. It's an incredibly flat shooting round.

I like the .270 Win alot too, but I always wanted to shoot with a Wby chambering.
Several gun writers have called the .257 Wby a 'Mouse to Moose' caliber. It's also a favorite for plains game in Africa.

Chuck Hawks says this- "The bottom line is that the .257 Weatherby Magnum is perhaps the ultimate ultra-long range medium game cartridge."

I'll let you know from personal experience soon enough though!!!!

[Adam Helmer]

Solly,


So, Roy Weatherby took a cape buffalo with a 100 grain .257W round. Wow. Is that round legal for the cape buffalo in any African nation? I have heard of folks dropping an elephant with a .22 Long Rifle round, but not many PHs would recommend it. LOL.

Be well.

Adam

[TheSollyLama]

oh to be sure I wouldn't use the .257 for anything that large. but for any North American game? Certainly it's more than adequate at extended ranges on virtually anything in the lower 48.
It's right around .270 win by the numbers. A little faster, little flatter. And admittedly, probably a difference I will never notice in the field.
My choice was more about getting something a little different, and being an admirer of Roy and it was his personal favorite.
Had I not gone with the Wby chambering, I would have gotten a .308 win, which is just another personal favorite of mine.

[Adam Helmer]

Solly,

Why send a "Boy" to do a 'man's" JOB? For big critters, please be fair to the game and use "Enough Gun.".

Adam

[TheSollyLama]

And I have long disagreed with the magnumitis that seems to have infected the hunting world. Seems today you can't kill a squirrel with a .30-30 and forget deer with anything less than 50BMG. It'll just bounce off them.......

I wasn't aware wild game had gotten hold of body armor in recent years.

The .257 Wby is a world famous caliber, used to hunt all but the largest game, spoken of with reverence by every gun writer, and proven since 1944 or so to be absolutely lethal on all manner of game here and on safari.

I've found that when someone says 'enough gun' it is actually describing what is enough for that person's ego. It makes no difference to the tens of thousands of deer killed every year whether it was a .30-30, .257, or .338 Win Mag.
Punish your shoulder if you really think it makes it better. We'll agree to disagree that things get any deader than dead.
I hunt pronghorn, mulies, elk and the occasional bear. The .257Wby is more than 'enough gun' for any of them.

[fabsroman]

"Certainly it's more than adequate at extended ranges on virtually anything in the lower 48."

That is the statement that I have an issue with. I've been watching this thread for a day or two now, debating whether or not to chime in. Wish I had my Barnes manual here to see what amount of energy it recommends for certain game and what the .257 Weatherby is capable of at certain distances.

Aren't there grizzlies and moose in the lower 48? I would think that the .257 Weatherby is definitely not enough gun for either of these animals, but I could be wrong. Don't get me wrong, the .257 Weatherby will probably work in ideal conditions most of the time, but hunting isn't full of ideals. Sometimes, shoulder bones have to be broken and every once in a while a rib is hit. Oh yeah, then there are people that don't make the perfect shot ALL the time, me included. Every once in a while I'll screw up and the shot will be too far forward into the shoulder on a broadside shot, etc.

Enough gun for me is something that will break through bone on whatever game I am hunting and still be effective on dropping that game without a long chase. I also understand that no caliber other than an RPG or Howitzer can make up for an extremely bad shot (e.g., gut shot, rear leg shot).

The other thing I find quite funny is that you are not a fan of magnumitis, but aren't Weatherbys a magnum of magnums? The .300 Weatherby Magnum makes my .300 Win Mag look small.

[Lilred]

Howdy Sama...
First off....welcome to the board!
I must make these comments, simply cause I'm curious.
Please dont let em offend you, I'm kinda dry and to the point.
With that, I apologize in advance.

I've found that when someone says 'enough gun' it is actually describing what is enough for that person's ego.

Honey..let's talk bout ego here....

The .257 Wby is a world famous caliber,
But the snob in me said Weatherby. The punk in me said be different. The hunter in me said make your legacy with Roy's favorite round.

With that said...them deer, bear, elk er whatever DOES NOT know the difference between a Rem, Ruger or your Weatherby. They will know the difference in shot strength.
I'm thinkin you either work for Weatherby (walkin billboard), or you are in some kinda dream world and suffer from Peter Pan disease....(If you dream it...it can come true)

I understand everyone's got their brands..but your words are way beyond a brand preference..and I dont give a rats if every writer in the world says it's so...it dont make it so.
Does anybody remember my rant on Ruger in Anything Goes??

Sir, I ask you read that thread...you might find it interestin...and I do hope we don't find you over in Africa runnin fer dear life.
BTW, I aint knockin Weatherby.

[TheSollyLama]

got a link to that thread? I'd be happy to read it.

I already went blind staring at charts. The 257 Wby is on the level of 270 win or .30-06, with better trajectory. That's all it is. Never said it was a elephant gun.

While Wby is a magnum, I meant the Ultra Mag craze that has half the hunting world convinced you need to bring an M1 Abrams to shoot anything but prairie dogs.
Heard the same thing about my 'puny' .30-30, which has killed more game than all the big belted magnums combined, several times over.

I'll draw an analogy. I am a biker. Lately I've liked sport bikes. Everyone of them will vastly exceed any responsible speed or lean angle. Yet the craze is there too- go bigger.
While the 600cc class used to be the street class, now everyone 'needs' the 1000cc or larger bikes. Not a one can handle the additional power or even put it to use on the street, yet the liter bikes fly out of show rooms.

I see the hunting world going the same way. Just fire the biggest cannon you can manage. I just disagree with that notion.

Never bought into the hand cannon notions. I've killed plenty of game in my life and never had to use handheld artillery to accomplish it.

I do enjoy the fact that the Weatherby has a world famous reputation. That's doing one's homework.

And I examined my typical big game hunting now that I'm more mobility limited- and decided that old Roy's favorite was right up my alley.

As for Griz, well I don't plan on hunting them. I am a local hunter, and trips abroad for them isn't my cup of tea. I'm primarily a pronghorn and mule deer hunter. Elk and black bear on occasion.

I'm fully confident in this chambering's ability to drop anything I hunt, do it efficiently, and do it humanely. All that without toting an anti-tank weapon

[MacD37]

Originally posted by TheSollyLama
got a link to that thread? I'd be happy to read it.

Solly, I haven't read the srting you were invited to read, but I have hunted all over the world, and Killed my first bear at the tender age of eleven yrs. My first deer at the age of seven yrs, and My first head of African game at the age of 45 yrs. In between those years from seven to age 45, I have hunted just about everything North America has to offer, and with everything from a 22 lr to a 577NE double rifle. and have hunted Alaska, Canada, and Africa, every yr from 1982, till today.

Now why am I telling you all this? Well it is simply that I am 71 yrs old, and have some experience with not only just about every cartridge shot from a shoulder gun, and on just about every animlal. That gives me some knowledge on the subject at hand. This is so you don't get the idea I'm a lonely highschool kid trying to tell someone much older (LIKE about 20 yrs old) what is what. I'm not saying that I haven't made mistakes, some of them exactly the one you are makeing now, I have, but I learned by them.

I already went blind staring at charts. The 257 Wby is on the level of 270 win or .30-06, with better trajectory. That's all it is. Never said it was a elephant gun.

First off, the 257 Wby Mag is a varment/deer cartridge, and is certainly not on the level of the 30-06, or even the 270 Win. It is flatter shooting than either, and faster, but it doesn't have the SD to work effeciently on large heavy boned animals. You are makeing the mistake of looking a fPE and trejectory. the speed will get you on target farther out, but that 117 gr bullet will not give you the pennertation you need. A 180 gr, 30 cal. soft point controled expansion bullet will, even at 300 fps less speed!



While Wby is a magnum, I meant the Ultra Mag craze that has half the hunting world convinced you need to bring an M1 Abrams to shoot anything but prairie dogs.
Heard the same thing about my 'puny' .30-30, which has killed more game than all the big belted magnums combined, several times over.

What you say is true for some folks, who make the same mistake you are makeing! They try to replace shot placement and heavier well constructed bullets, with speed, and flat trejectory.


I'll draw an analogy. I am a biker. Lately I've liked sport bikes. Everyone of them will vastly exceed any responsible speed or lean angle. Yet the craze is there too- go bigger.
While the 600cc class used to be the street class, now everyone 'needs' the 1000cc or larger bikes. Not a one can handle the additional power or even put it to use on the street, yet the liter bikes fly out of show rooms.

I see the hunting world going the same way. Just fire the biggest cannon you can manage. I just disagree with that notion.

Your analogy, is interesting, but not valid when compared to the discussion here, The 257 Wby Mag, is not even the equal to the old 1906 30 gov(30-06) and the the 30-06 is not a cannon by any stretch of the imagination, and is a small bore on the world scale, and not even legal for any of the big five larger, or more dangerous than a 200 lb Leopard in Africa, and in some countries not even that, being restricted to plains game, and the .257 bore diameter is not either, in any country in Africa. It just barely makes the grade for elk in Colorado, and New mexico. I certainly wouldn't recomend it for Alaska's brown bear, and on really big black bear, I'd rather have the 30-30. (Coastal Grizzley)

Never bought into the hand cannon notions. I've killed plenty of game in my life and never had to use handheld artillery to accomplish it.

I do enjoy the fact that the Weatherby has a world famous reputation. That's doing one's homework.

Cannon? Nothing you have quoted here, can be considered a cannon! In fact the little 30-30 you seem to think is a whimp, is far more effective on things like black bear, and Moose, then the 257 Wby Mag, within it's range. The 170 gr soft point .308 dia bullet @ only 2300 fps is superior to the 17 gr bullet from the 257 wby mag at 3000 fps withing 100 yds, and on animals as large as elk, @ 150 yds with the same placement.

As far as reputation, yes wby has one, but it ain't what you think it is. Serious hunters laugh when Wby is mentioned, that is the rep they have.

The rifles that are actually made by Wby, and non existant, and are made by Miroku for the most part, but actually that is a good thing. Why do you think the WBY line can be bought in any Wal Mart in the world for less than $800. A rifle that qualifies as "WELL SUITED" for anything in North america, that is worth owning will cost that much for the action alone! First off any rifle used for anything that bites back, should start out with a CRF action, and the Wby isn't CRF.

And I examined my typical big game hunting now that I'm more mobility limited- and decided that old Roy's favorite was right up my alley.

As far as Roy's favorite, you are mistaken, his favorite was the 300 Wby Mag, and if he shot a cape buffalo with a 257 Wby Mag, he broke the law, because he only hunted Africa in Africa, in the countries of Kenya, and Botswana, and the minimum for buffalo is .400 cal, and even the lion and leopard were listed as .375 minimum.


As for Griz, well I don't plan on hunting them. I am a local hunter, and trips abroad for them isn't my cup of tea. I'm primarily a pronghorn and mule deer hunter. Elk and black bear on occasion.

I'm fully confident in this chambering's ability to drop anything I hunt, do it efficiently, and do it humanely. All that without toting an anti-tank weapon

As long as you stick to muledeer, and prong horn, and place your shots well, pick your shots, and don't shoot too far on your targets, you will be fine with the 257 Wby Mag, as long as you use the heaviest controled expansion bullet, and stay off the heavy shoulder bones. However, if you run onto a grizzley, I'd much rather have that 30-06 with a 220 gr Nosler partition, than any .25 cal bullet ever invented!

Sorry son,I hate to rain on your parade,And there is nothing worng with the 257 Wby Mag, but it isn't the magic cartridge you think it is, that's all.

The people here are giving you sound advice, however, you are not required to heed it, or even believe it, if you do, fine, and if not, then enjoy ...................... :D

[Minihuntur]

SollyLama,
I must say that if I owned such a gun I'd call it my baby too. I own a Vangaurd SS in .243 WIN and I LOVE it. That being said I think Weatherby has been around longer than Howa so it would have been Howa that copied Weatherby. I have no doubts about Mr. Weatherby taking elephants with his .257 but I wouldn't use anything smaller than a .416 (but I wont be going to Africa any time soon) but I say nothing larger than black bear with a .257 WBY. No offense but bigger bullets are quite helpful on bigger animals. P.S. how fast does it go?
Minihuntur

[Lilred]

Dont get me wrong, I do agree with the general statement that some hunters "overdo" with rifle & shotgun size. Fer example, a 3 1/2" magnum....some love it. Others think it unnecessary.
Shotguns are a whole different story, so I wont go there.

I also agree with MAC's statement on the 30-30...they are one of the most versitile rifles out there IMHO, except in long ranges. I aint never killed a bear or elk w/ a 30-30...but I have killed many deer with it and different ranges, many over 100 yrds. My uncle used it to kill a 403 lb black bear.
Shells are relatively cheap, and reloadin them is even cheaper and the brass is easy to find. Recoil aint bad either.
It dont matter how big the hole is goin in er out...unless you shoot it in the hind quarter er the tenderloin lol
:rolleyes:
So, I say the more damage you can make, the better.
Aint that the point of it all anyway? To me, I want to make as much damage to the animal as possible. Damage = quicker/humane death.
Shock is what kills quicker anyway.
Example: a 180 lb deer.
Shot with a bow...he'll run..on average...75 yrds.
Shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader w/ 80 gr and a soft lead HP sabot...he drops like a hammer.
The difference? Shock.
Faster and smaller aint always better, cause it delivers less shock.
At least that's how I look at it...
Interestin thread though :)
BTW..I had an old Savage bolt 30-30. It was sweet as silk, smooth and soft on the trigger and well balanced. Not high-falootin...but very effective.

[Adam Helmer]

MacD37

Welcome to the Forum. You bring a wealth of sage experience to this discussion; that is what these fireside chats are all about. Be well.

Adam

[fabsroman]

Solly,

For the pronghorn and probably the mule deer, the .257 will be just fine. However, I think I would go with something that can shoot heavier bullets for the elk and black bear. Like I said earlier, better to have enough gun if you screw up the shot, than not enough.

If you had posted those four species as your intended quarry to begin with, it might have cleared up a lot of things for everybody.

Me, I own a .220 Swift, .270 Win, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag. The next bolt action on my list is a .25-06 and then I think I will have everything pretty well covered until I decide to hunt grizzly or in Africa. Might just pick up a .416 for the heck of it.

[Dom]

Welcome to HC Solly. JMO, the .25 caliber is too light for anything larger than deer. Like said, it'll do fine with a good bullet in the boiler room. Anything larger you don't have much leeway, like Fabs said, you don't always get those perfect shots, so you'd have to pass on the marginal ones. Personally, after spending the time and effort involved in hunting, why place yourself at a disadvantage if you don't get the right shot? Another reason is the .25 caliber leaves a smaller hole and is handicapped in weight of bullets for larger animals.

If you keep all the above comments in mind, you'll have fun with that .257, just don't overdo it and think it'll knock the socks off anything in NA, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

It's been quite a looooooong while since I was on the forums, am not on my own computer as it's been down for months now :mad: anyway I really missed the laugh here, seen some remembered names (nice to see you all)

Anyway this thread gave me a good chuckle :p Weatherby's are now made in the US or so I read however Weatherby still don't make them in fact I doubt they ever made a rifle! As for the "World fanous reputation" I notice it was not explained what this was for! Folks just seem to presume it's for being good :D but from what I have seen it's more likely for crippled game and poor performance and accuracy. So much so that I would not give one house room not even as a gift ;) so don't offer :p

The only good thing I can say about Weatherby it that Roy was one heck of a sales man ;) he could have sold snow to eskimoes :D .

Oh I have shot a few weatherby's, .257 and .460 in the MkV and .223 in the Vanguard. I didn't shoot the 30-378 MkV a friends brother had as it was hunting season and we were in camp and anyway it would have been wasting ammo as it rarely hit what it was aimed at. Two Swaroskis scopes, three trips back to Weatherby so that in the end only the action was an original part then finally total blue-printing by a Benchrest gunsmith got it shooting acceptably for hunting. This all took three years and respulted in several lost deer and numerous cripples. My advice to use it as a Boat Anchor was not taken :rolleyes: . I hear he still insists on hunting with that darned piece of junk.

As for being a snob, nope you just brought and swallowed the hype lock stock and barrel and Ole Roy laughed all the way to the bank!

I suppose snob value of a rifle could go with a names like Rigby's of London, sorry I cannot include the modern made ones from the land of fruit and nuts (California) Mauser Obendorf, Steyr Mannlicher, the original Winchesters, Fred Wells, Pachmeyer, Holland & Holland to mention a few but weatherby? nope not in the same league. Sorry

Now I really do hope you enjoy your purchase, and no I am not being funny, I also hope that you will learn by it as from your post you have lots of learning to do ;) it's one thing which we are never too old to do ........................ learn that is.

[Adam Helmer]

Brithunter,

Many thanks for the "Reality Check" on this matter; you know your stuff. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

Adam

[jplonghunter]

Brithunter

Good to hear from the other side of the pond. You are correct in that Roy had a terrific sales pitch and that he never actually made anything,just did a great job of marketing.

Last I heard Sarco was building the Weatherby.

jplonghunter

[Brithunter]

Hi There,

As I say we are all still learning :D

Ahhh yes I almost forgot that it's Thanks Giving in the US so that means the Missouri rifle season is over. I need to catch up how the brothers did this year :p .

I was lucky to have visited Rigby's in London after acquiring a Mannlicher built by then in 1908. The dealer didn't know what it was and it was priced low, I paid £225 which is about $450 US for it. After contacting Rigby's and talking with them I took it up to London and discussed it with them. There was some rust marking on one side prbably from laying in a felted gun case. We agreed the work and they cleaned it up best they could re-blacking the buttplate and magazine trigger guard and giving the whole rifle a clean and service.

When I collected it they had also found an original box of Kynoch ammunition for the rifle which I brought and gave me a copy of the page from their original ledger from 1908. I got to admire some of their rifles and shotguns in progress. Later I met Ron Wharton who was their habds on workshop manager and now builds rigby style rifles on his own and have visted his workshop several times. Due to my interest in classic sporting (huntign) rifles I have met several rifle smiths and custom makers. Ron put me onto Lewis Potter of Potter & Walker who fitted the new Steyr made barrel to my project Schoenauer Mdl 1903 and who fitted it up after blacking.

This interst led me to purchase a new in the box parker-Hale 1200 Super in 7.92mm (8x57 Mauser) from a special export order P-H did. Of course P-H is no more thanks to greed of developers and moey men from the holding company who owned them and the property they occupied. The 1200 super was made during a take over period and quality control suffered, the beddign was horrible as was accuracy. If P-H were still operating I would have returned it however another friend put me onot a rifle smith who specialises in beddign and regulation of rifles and it was sent up to him to be sorted. now it looks like it should and shoots as it should although the action is not as smooth as earlier made p-H riles I have. It seems they cut corners on this one but it's a representation of their late production and goes well with the late model BSA CF2 in 7x57 I have. Apart form the trigger which is betetr on the P-H being a Timmney type, the BSA has the P-H beat quality and smoothness wise hands down.

As for hyper velocity it's not new :rolleyes: Ross did it in 1906 with the .280 Ross, then Newton with his range of cartridges, later in the early 1920's BSA along with a ammunition maker brought out three high velocity cartridges the .26 BSA, .33 (or .3300 BSA and the .40 BSA in the model 1923 high velocity rifle. the rifle was built on a Pattern 14 action and ther .33 gave performance similar to that which the .338 Win Mag but some 30 years before it. Sadly they didn't have a Roy Weatherby to seel and market them and add in the depression and they failed with only a few being built. I nearly had a .330 marked one but after I left to do the research which took several weeks the shop closed down and no one seems to know where it went :( .

Perhaps on day I will get the chance to examine and handle one of the modern Californian Rigby's but until then I cannot put them alongside the originals and just relying on the hype in the media is not a good idea ................... to me anyway! ;)

Oh you might find this interesting. A friends grandson brought a Sauer 202 in 7x64, I was slightly concerned as it appeared to have a pit inside the muzzle probably from snow as it wwas used and the previous owner had done a lot of Boar huntign in Germany with it. Anyway he brought ti and various factory ammo but it shot horribly. He is an excellent shot but could get much better than 3" groups at 100 yards. After trying ever type of factory ammo he could get it finally went back to the shop who fitted a new Sauer barrel for him and it was still not very good. Finally he called it a day and swopped it for a Blaser R93 in 7x57.

Even reputable makers can put out a lemon :rolleyes: .

Now he has finally acquired the rifle he has always craved a Mannlicher GK in 7x64. It came through a contact of his grandfathers in Germany and he is very happy and it shoots well so he sold the Blaser professional he had to fund this purchase.

Hope you all had a good holiday :D .