Pistol for new job????

[Jon707]

Hey everyone iam going through my final stages of a new job with a armored truck service here in the San Francisco bay area specifically Richmond-Oakland dangerous job in these parts heres the question.I have limited choices on handguns revolvers it can be a Smith 38/357 with 4 inch barrel or a ruger gp100 in the same or colt double actions.Auto pistols are pretty flexible .40 cal and under double action.Iam thinking a Glock 31 in 357 sig i have owned one in the past and liked it i think i would feel safe with it in the past few years there has been alot of truck jackings here so i need a good gun what do think?

[Adam Helmer]

Jon707,

Welcome to the Forum. Are you required to buy your duty handgun or is one of several issued to you? How much handgun experience have you had and what training is provided BEFORE you go on duty?

Give us more information so we can be more helpful. Also, do you have a 12 gauge shotgun in the armored truck? If not, why not?

Adam

[Jon707]

There is a list of handguns you are given a gun allowance of $750 when you start the short list is ruger gp-100-s&w .357/.38-colt python or king cobra in .357 in autos its 40 cal and under some brands mentioned berretta,glock,sig,hk,ruger most guys carry nines because its easy to range qualify with i shoot alot mostly with my para 1911 or my blackhawk 44 or redhawk 480 iam very good with a handgun.

[Jon707]

yeah and the shotgun there is one next to the driver and sometimes a mini 14 in the back gotta love california every where else it would be a ar-15 its a high paying job here at a grocery store in my town a truck was held up by guys with Ak-47s they chose not to shoot it out and handed the money over

[Adam Helmer]

Jon707,

Thanks for the additional information. It sounds like you should go with the handgun you feel most comfortable with.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

Ruger gp100 with 4 or 6 inch barrel in stainless with full barrel shroud would be my pick. If you can't hit them in 6 shots you can beat the rhino they are riding to death with the full barrel shroud. :D
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1707&return=Y

For ammo I would use magtech 158gr Semijacketed soft points. If they are trying to run you off the road you need barrier (IE vehicle door or roof) penetration. Yet you still want some expansion in soft tissue.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=211425&t=11082005


GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

Among the handguns you can choose from, pick the one that points instinctively for you, and then make sure you practice with it enough to make operating all it's features instinctive.
Magazine capacity is nice, but remember that only hits count, not how many times you shoot.

[BlkHawk73]

Regardless of which handgun you choose, I'd think it would be in your best interest to some top notch training. It's just an automatic - have handgun instant tactical expert. You've got Thunder Ranch to your north and Gunsite to your south. Either is a perfect choice.

[Rapier]

Jon,
You have several considerations, not just what feels good but also the quality of the gun and its parts. I would suggest that you find a shop with a smith that works in the shop. Ask the smith what gun he reccomends, do not ask the salesman. What you want is a oneway gun, it goes out and never comes back for repair. That ain't a Glock. Go look at the H&K USP it is a business handgun.

Best of luck.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

Top notch training is a beautiful idea. Now that we are back in the real world where we don't get paid that much lets look at some things you can and SHOULD do.

1. Whatever you buy practice with it till you are sick of it.
2. Get comfortable holding it, I don't care if you have to sit in the living room and fondle it while watching all the lethal weapon and die hard movies. I have seen officers who were not comfortable holding their own gun and let me tell you you can see the difference when they shoot.
3. Shoot what you practice with. Don't be a bonehead and buy 500 rounds of wadcutters because they are cheap, then put premium stuff in the gun you have never fired and wonder what happened.
4. Practice some more.

It is better to be the overpracticed gunloving nutjob that the guy who did just enough and gets a company paid for funeral.

my 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[Esox357]

I highly recommend glocks due to the simplicity, reliability, and durability of the firearm, of course you already know this. Pick a caliber that you want, I would suggest a 9mm if you do not have much training with a firearm. You can shoot the 9mm cheaper that most other calibers and with a good hollow point ammo it would be fine for work. I like the 357sig round but you will be paying much more for ammunition and I am not sure on the availability in your area, of course you can order it online as well. Esox357.

[GoodOlBoy]

I wouldn't use 9mm unless I had NO other choice. PARTICULARLY if you are an armed driver. 9mm has (particularly HPs) barrier penetration that is just this side of sucks. a .40 S&W is almost as cheap with better penetration, a .45 auto has MUCH better penetration, and it is hard to beat the ballistics on the 357 sig (but easy to beat the price of ammo). The PD I work for has unoffically banned 9mms altogether. IE you can carry one, but when you go to the range you lose extra points towards qualification for every round that is even slightly off of dead on.

Remember FBI heavy cloth (heavy cotton T-shirt, with flannel shirt over it, with down or flannel lined denim jacket) will stop a 9mm and a 38 special dead in its tracks. My understanding is it still hurts like a bear, but it stops the round and is MOST effective against HPs. Now take the same setup and shoot them with a Semi jacket soft point 158 gr 357, a 230 grain ball ammo 45, or a good quality .40 and see what happens to them.

In warm weather, thin t-shirts, and no barriers in the way yes a 9mm or 38 will work and work well. But since you don't want a summer gun and winter gun to go with your wardrobe I would stay away from them. Besides I can't see too many t-shirt wearing, convertable driving bad guys trying to jack an armoured car.

my 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh and if you go for an automatic by all means look into "bonded" or "tacitcal bonded" ammunition. They were designed for better windshield penetration.

GoodOlBoy

[Adam Helmer]

GOB,

I like your "Summer gun and Winter gun" definitions. One question: Do I need a third gun for Indian Summer? LOL.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

Thats when you carry yer belt fed 12 guage shotgun. :p

GoodOlBoy

[Tall Shadow]

While I also would HIGHLY recommend something in a caliber starting in .4x, I wouldn't bet my life (or anyone else's) on any clothing stopping a 9mm....short of a ballistic vest. ;)

(For a good bit of "real World" testing, look up "The Box-O-Truth" website...you will be very glad you did.)

I would go with whatever you feel most comfortable with/have the most training, and Practice! with.

Tall Shadow

[Esox357]

The 9mm not penetrating? I disagree. The 9mm with a 147 tends to overpenetrate! The section density of the 9mm allows it to penetrate like crazy. The 9mm has killed plenty of people and was designed for that. Gold Dot, Golden Saber both work fine. I would use the 115 or 124's. Esox357.

[GoodOlBoy]

Disagree all you want then go read the FBI tests, the Texas Highway Patrol tests, the California Highway patrol tests, and just about everybody else who is going AWAY from the 9mm because of the lack of penetration. Also keep in mind I am talking about barrier and heavy clothing penetration, not shooting through some naked psycho with ball ammo.

And no the 9mm was not designed to kill people. It was designed to create one heck of a wound channel. The original intent of going to the 9mm instead of the 45 acp was that the 45 acp was a killing round which should not be carried by a "peackeeping" force.

Don't listen to the BS. Read your history.

Does that mean the 9mm is not valid particularly as a self defense round? Heck no. It is MUCH better than nothing. And it performs well against unarmored, thin clothed targets, particularly with HPs. Does that mean I would carry one as a cop OR an armoured car driver. In a word NO. By the way the Gold Dot/Golden Saber comment show JUST what I am talking about. HPs do NOT perform as barrier penetration unless designed to do so (Such as the Golden Saber Bonded POLICE version ammo. Not the civilian bonded version.)

Anyway as I was saying that is the reason most officers are begning to carry 40s, 357 sigs, or even going back to the 45 acp. Myself if the department was buying ammo and cost wasn't an object and I HAD to carry an automatic then I would lean towards the 357 sig. And thats sad because I am a 45 fanatic.

Personally I like revolvers better than automatics, but thats just my choice. A good 357 with a 158 grain semi jacketed Soft point does one heck of a job through a car window or roof, and even through modern doors on houses. (houses over 20 years old have a decent chance of having a solid core oak door. Good luck if you have to shoot a bad guy through one and you are armed with a pistol.)

GoodOlBoy

[Esox357]

The 9mm was designed to kill, the germans wanted a more powerful round hence the 9mm Luger design. Early 90's the 9mm had expasion problems but new ammuntion advances has put the 9mm pretty close to the other rounds and all will do the job with proper shot placement.
The 9mm will penetrate. It will go through drywall, car doors, windshield glass ect. All barriers are hard on bullets. Bonded is the new craze and helps, but gold dots were the original bonded bullet before the other manufactures jumped on board.
The 9mm is a good beginner round. Low recoil, cheaper to shoot, faster follow up shots, accurate, and deadly as anything else. I have yet to meet anyone that would let me shoot them with a 9mm because it is ineffective.
I personally carry a .40 caliber but that is due to my agency. I like both rounds but realize for someone new to the .40 can be a handful in the recoil deparment. Most of the newbies don't qualify as high if they had been shooting the 9mm. I like it but a 9mm would work as well for me.
The FBI tests I wouldn't put alot of faith in. The others I would have to look at. The 357 sig is a 9mm just at faster speeds, basically a 9mm on steroids. For the armored car job the 9mm would be sufficient. Esox357.

[GoodOlBoy]

True the germans did invent the 9mm, but again it was not the round it was touted to be. I should have stated that the peackeeping statement had to do with it replacing the 45 auto during the vietnam war. Ballistically the 9mm looks great on paper. But then again so does a 38 special. As for 40 S&W recoil thats bull. If you have a 40 that is recoiling badly you have a problem gun the 40 does not noticeably recoil harder than the 9mm which does not recoil that much harder than the 380 auto. Does the 9mm have a place. YESSSS. So does the 38 (I carry a 38 special)

The question was asked what gun to carry as an armoured car driver. To hang onto the 9mm like a tick on a dog because it is a popular round is completely stupid, and it took Texas Highway Patrol, the FBI, and California Highway patrol more than 10 years to finally realize it. For civilian carry there is not, I repeat not a thing wrong with the 9mm. I have shot, and considered buying both a 9mm torkarev (yes I know it is a different round) and a Ruger 9mm that I fell in love with a buddy had. I DIDN'T buy then because I had NO practical reason to downgrade what I was carrying (At the time a milspec 1911A1 45 ACP)

In my opinion a revolver is MUCH more practical for a driver. Carry a few speed loaders there you go. Ease of one handed operation, lack of confusion when operating the firearm, etc etc etc.

The 9mm DOES NOT DO WELL Penetrating vehicles. I have been at the range when we had this argument when we banned them here, and we went to the range with an old car (donated) and shot the heck out of it to see for ourselves. Not counting direct hits on a frame or the engine block 9mms did NOT penetrate reliably EVERY time (6 out of 10 on average, side windows it did well on, rear glass and windshield it did ok, doors. . . . . 7 failures to penetrate out of 10 shots). 40's penetrated 9 times out of 10 on average. 45 acps penetrated EVERY TIME. 357 mag penetrated every time, 44 mag penetrated all but once, and it was an OBVIOUS low powder load (Everybody at the range knew it as soon as the trigger was pulled), 38 special was not quite as well on penetration as 9mm, and 380. . . . we won't go into 380 its just sad. We banned 9mms and 38s on anything but backup guns, 380s are banned altogether. We had one officer bring out a 357 sig. He declined to shoot SIMPLY because we didn't have spare ammo for it at the time and he didn't want to burn up his personal ammo (don't blame him)

We can argue this all day, and some web pages have thousands of pages of this argument. But I have SEEN it done, it is not something I would put MY life on. Period.

My 2 cents (And I'm done)

EDITED TO ADD: The Germans as well as the Japanese perscribbed to the wounding theory of battle by the way. One man dead is one man dead. One man wounded is one wounded and two to carry him away. The Koreans later tried this same tactic in the Korean War. Not to say that this was why they invented the 9mm, far from it. Just saying.

GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

Folks, I really don't wanna get into this argument, but I will say one thing.
Comparing military usages of cartridges, where FMJ's are required, and civilian applications, where expanding bullets are common, is like comparing apples to airplanes.
Pistol cartridges tested with expanding bullets should be compared to pistol cartridges tested with expanding bullets.
Pistol cartridges tested with FMJ's should be compared ONLY to other tests with FMJ's.
The situations of expected use and outcome of the two different categories is totally different.

[Esox357]

GoodOlBoy, It makes the thread interesting at least! You have your experiences and I have mine thats what is nice about sharing the info. I am not arguing with you just having a conversation. I don't know how much penetration one would need I have heard everything from 12" to 18" which seems excessive maybe a middle ground? I might think that the agencies you listed may have needed to switch ammuntion not the caliber.
The .40 is not hard to control on recoil but to a new person that does not shoot much it is snappier for sure. Regards. Esox357

[GoodOlBoy]

Good point Jack.

Esox it has been interesting. I have heard those measurements as well. I have never seen a single company be able to actually demonstrate them in a live enviroment (and believe me several of them tried to demonstrate it for us)

GoodOlBoy

[Esox357]

Yep GoodOlBoy, they are hard to achieve with a handgun caliber,
see you on the next thread. :0) Take Care Esox357..

[PJgunner]

Well, getting back to the subject at hand, if a revolver, I'd go with either the S&W 686 First choice) and the Ruger GP-100 as second choice. I believe the S&W will have a better trigger that the Ruger which should make it easier to shoot. (I've had both and the Ruger was the firt to go. The 686 4" was sold very freluctantly as I shot it well, but mioney was needed. I miss that gun.
As to the semiautos, my first choice ain't there. :( The good old 1911A1. :D :cool: So, looking at what you have to work with, my first choice would be the SIG. I have a P-220 in .45 ACP and it's a real sweethert. I also have three very expensive custom 1911s and the SIG will not only shoot right along with them, but sometimes outshoot them. The Ruger P-85 I have shoots very well, is accurate enough, but doggone it, it feels like a brick in my hand. I ahven't played with any of the smaller and lighter Ruger so won't comment on them.
I like the 9mm and my night stand gun is an S&W 6906 loaded with 115 gr, Standard Federal HP's. (9BP) Still, Ialso have a 12 ga. shotgun under the bed loaded with alternating 00 and #4 buckshot, 8 rounds to be exact.
However, while I am prepared to repel boarders, I'm not in a job that requires being armed for my personal safety while performing my job.
My choice would be either the SIG or if they're on the list the Beretta in .40 caliber. Bigger holes let out more blood and let in more cold air, and that's what you need should, Gog forbid that you would have to shoot.
So why the 9 as a night stand gun. because my wife has too much trouble with the .45's recoil. Either the Colt Combat Commander or the P-220 are right close at hand for my use.
Here in Tucson, we don't worry too much about winter clothing for at least 10 or 11 months out of the year. :D
Go either .357 mag. or .40 S&W. I'd pick either one given the choices at hand.
Paul B.

[PaulS]

If you have to carry then I would also recommend the largest diameter bullet you can accurately handle. I prefer the wheel guns that Ruger makes - the trigger can be a little rough and a might hard BUT it can be fixed with a little work and I have personally fired over 10000 rounds through my Ruger and it still prints well. I know of Smiths that have been shot out with half that many rounds. I think the 357 is an excelent round for LE use. If you look at the velocity and bullet weight data you will find that 9mm and 38spl+p are so close as to be identical in ballistics. Not my favorite round but some like it. The 45s would also be an excellent choice. I never learned to trust an auto but some do so I guess it is personal preference.
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