I hear that neck shots on deer are UNETHICAL?

[rattus58]

i've talked to hundreds of hunters probably over my lifetime, and hundreds of hunters have their own opinions as to just about everything in hunting. Ethics and what's ethical always seems to garner a great debate from hunters depending upon what and where you are schooled. Baiting, for example... ethical? Don't forget to duck. Running goats over a cliff? That just happened here in Hawaii yesterday or the day before... but Kamehameha ran 10,000 warriors off a Pali... was that ethical....

Now I hear that neck shots are unethical

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/rattus58/deer-skeleton0neckshot.jpg

The argument for neck shots is that it usually is instant results. A big bullet will short circuit the spinal column with spectacular result on occasion.

While on Lanai one year, after a long arduous day of hunting, I did my usual set up for the afternoon (found a comfortable shady spot for a nap) and after the requisite length of preparation, I spotted this very fat doe come trotting along a windline of Kiawe (mesquite to the heathens.. ) and popped out right in front of me. After duly assimilating my good fortune (of the opportunity)I raised my rifle and squeezed the trigger. And there she stood as the smoke of my 91 cleared away from her as a fog lifting in a gentle breeze... While referencing a note to myself to get more range time, I slowly dropped my buttplate to the ground, popped the cap on the speed loader which had mysteriously appeared in my hand, loaded powder and bullet, and was just lifting the ramrod out of the stock when the doe, stiff legged as a redwood, fell over in front of me. The shot as true as I had imagined... center of the neck. This is unethical?

So how do you feel about neck shots? Should they be avoided at all costs on ethical reasons? Remember, we're talking muzzleloaders here...

Aloha... http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/rattus58/deer-skeleton0neckshot.jpg

[fabsroman]

A big bullet will short circuit the spinal column with spectacular result on OCCASION.

Me, I don't take them, but since they aren't illegal, I'm not going to say whether somebody should or should not take one.

If that neck shot was effective on that doe you shot, it would have broken her neck immediately and she would have dropped like a rock. The fact that she was still standing after the smoke cleared means that it wasn't as effective as it could have been.

Me, I just shoot them through the heart and lungs. It allows for a little more leeway as far as mistakes are concerned, and I use a rifle most of the time. Head shots would be even better, but those don't allow for much error and shooting the jaw off a deer is a terrible way for it to die.

Ethics are within the hunter. If a hunter always takes neck shots and hardly ever loses a deer, then I say go for it. Me, I'm just not comfortable doing it unless that is the only part of the deer that I can shoot at and it is one huge buck. Others wouldn't even take the neck shot if it is a huge buck and that is the only shot presented.

[rattus58]

You mean you've actually seen a deer shot in the spine with "any" bullet not drop on the spot? I know they don't all die immediately, but I've never heard or witness one not drop immediately.

Well I've shot a few others that did all sorts of entertaining DRT arrivals. This, however you want to characterize it, was the strangest occurrence I've witnessed with a neck shot, but it qualifies in every way... did not move one inch, did not buckle and fell over STIFF LEGGED!.

I don't know what you'd call this deer, I called it DRT two miles from the road.

And certainly, the double lung shot is ALWAYS terminal, at some point. With big bullets, its terminal usually within eyesight, some others 300 yards away. If you are competent, have confidence in your shot, and have a big enough bullet, I don't see taking a neck shot as being a bad decision.

Aloha... :cool:

[gd357]

I've used the neck shot with success a number of times. Closest shot was about 10 yards, longest was better than 200 (facing me). In fact I shot 2 does in the neck this year during gun season. Both on a full run, both one shot kills. I'd say that seeing a deer cartwheel at the shot is a testament to the effectiveness of the shot placement. However, if you don't know where the spine is in the neck, wounding is possible. I don't have any problem with neck shots, but I've never screwed one up. JMHO

gd

[fabsroman]

Rattus,

My first sentence in the post above was a quote from your first post, but I just made the last word, OCCASION, capitalized for emphasis. So, calling me out on it is kind of hilarious, since it was your words and not mine. By the way, it is the second sentence after the picture in your initial post.

I have never seen a neck shot taken and I have never taken a neck shot, so I really don't have much opinion on the matter. However, I can see people missing the spinal column in a deer's neck pretty easily. I have hit a deer in the spinal column on top of its back, and that deer dropped like a sack of potatoes. That was the first deer I killed and the shot was at 15 yards, if that far. I wasn't trying for the spinal column, but that is where the bullet entered as it split in two, one half piercing the deer's heart and the other half piercing one of the lungs.

Me, I'm still going to stick with the lung shot because I know I can make it.

In the end, a shot to the spinal column is probably the most humane shot possible, but something tells me that most hunters out there cannot consistently make that shot.

[gumpokc]

I think the reason alot of people consider neck shots unethical is because come hunting season, you've got alot of people hunting who _might_ get one day of shooting a year.
The ones who say "sightin? why? i sighted my rifle in 10 years ago, and it's always worked fine".

Neck shots can work as well as any other, IF the hunter places it correctly. It's a smaller target usually though, and very hard to hit from some angles.

Alot of wounded deer, come from missed neck shots, or shots that "just" hit abit high or low but didnt kill the deer.

So the general consenses probably came about that "neck shots are unethical" to help prevent those who quite frankly don't have the necessary skill or patience to do it right wounding or crippling game.

That's just my thoughts, any others?

[skeet]

But in my opinion a neck shot is not the easiest shot to make..especially with a muzzy. They usually are not as accurate as a centerfire. The reason I say it isn't the best shot to take is because the target isn't the largest in the world and in the field we usually aren't able to make the accurate shots we can make off a bench. Now I have shot a few deer in the neck...mostly running and led just a bit too much(see what I mean about accuracy). I have also led a little to far behind and hit a few in the spine which I really do not like. They try very hard to get away and aren't able to move their hind legs so a follow up shot is always done pretty quickly in my case. Now as to neck shots..an experience kind of turned me off on them. I was looking for a meat deer for a friend one day(I did crop damage shooting with permits). Happened to see a nice large doe at about 75 yds. Took very good aim and shot her in the neck. Dropped like she had been hit by a meteor. DRT??...not. Threw her in the trunk of the car and took her to my friends place a few miles away. I figured he could take care of the details himself. Lo and behold...when I opened the trunk the deer raised its head and looked at me. Shut the trunk in a hurry. My friend kinda looked at me and I said what we gonna do? He then said..open the trunk and grab her and I'll help pull it out and cut it's throat!! Oh yeah... Well we did it but I thought that deer was gonna kill me afore he got the job done. Talkin about it now it was kinda funny...but it sure weren't then! So I quit shootin for the neck. The aiming point is just too small for consistency...even with a very accurate rifle. Slug guns, handguns and Muzzys?? No way! Even if you happen to be as good a shooter as Annie Oakley

[rattus58]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Rattus,

My first sentence in the post above was a quote from your first post, but I just made the last word, OCCASION, capitalized for emphasis. So, calling me out on it is kind of hilarious, since it was your words and not mine. By the way, it is the second sentence after the picture in your initial post.


Hey Fabsroman, the quote I made was in reference to some spectacular kills with a neck shot, which GD357 sort of alluded to in his post as to spectacular.

Regardless of whom makes the EMPHASIS, in this case it was you, I, being of simple mind, take them litterally, and so, if you refer to that as "calling you out" then you've been "called out" I guess. See, even I can misunderstand, calling out in my day usually ended up with a black eye for one of us, many times that bein myself.

Your emphasis, made it seem to ME... that you were emphasizing the OCCASION, which to ME meant you're understanding was that there was a significant number of times YOU didn't think that an animal would drop from a neck shot, spine shot, or otherwise disrupted nervous system IN ITS TRACKS.

This was ENTIRELY your doing. Now as to the rest of your post, I agree with you on most all of what you post, except that since you don't have experience with necks shots you don't have the benefit of seeing the result.

One thing I would like to point out here, is that most of us are shooting round balls or conicals of some larger diameter. This does a great job of expanding the influence of the hit.

Otherwise, have a very merry Christmas and a really prosperous New Year ahead....

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
But in my opinion a neck shot is not the easiest shot to make..especially with a muzzy. They usually are not as accurate as a centerfire.

Boy now that is a statement of statements. Every muzzleloader I own today is easily as accurate as ANY off the shelf centerfire. I'm not as good a shot with my flintlock yet, but that is not the guns fault.

All of my Green Mountain Barrels are excellent, as are all the Clerke Barrels I shoot, so I'm not arguing with you, but I am taking issue with muzzleloaders not being as accurate, for in my OPINION, they surely are as accurate as any centerfire.

Aloha....

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I have not heard that neck shots were unethical and they are not outlawed in our hunting regulations. The neck shot is effective if you can make it. I have cut up enough deer to know the neck vertarbrae is a small target-even at close range. I would bet not 20% of the deer hunters would know where to find it on a deer's neck.

Your muzzleloaders may be "as accurate as any centerfire", but some other folks do not find it to be so. I own accurate muzzleloaders and some not as accurate as iron-sighted bolt rifles. I prefer the heart-lung shots over the neck shots because there is more room for error and it is fairer to the game in my humble opinion. Every year the local game warden gives out tags to hunters who bagged gangrenous, and unfit for human consumption, deer wounded by inept hunters. Botched neck shots and paunched deer are a waste.

Adam

[rattus58]

Hi Adam,

No question many hunters botch shots. I personally haven't seen the numbers of gangrenous shots you have, only one sheep several of us collaborated on a few years ago, but I disagree with you about muzzleloader accuracy.

Most shooters don't hardly spend a day at the range with their guns. Even my old 54 CVA years ago was capable of terrific accuracy, but if one doesn't practice one doesn't shoot straight.

Dutch Schultz, who I talked to at length about his booklet on accuracy with a round ball, had shooters that cut dimes if they would take the time to find the right combination of slickness necessary with patches.

Accuracy with muzzleloaders comes down to the shooter in my estimation, not the gun.

Aloha... :cool:

[Dom]

But, the real question is, why would you take a neck shot and increase your chance of not killing the animal?

Think about this, if you got a broadside shot, or wait for it, why risk a smaller target? There are some situations where, yes, that's all you got and are willing to take the risk. Is it a risk? Of course, every shot has a certain risk in it.

For those who take neck shots, if it works, that's great. However, be warned, one day it may not work. Have I taken them? Yes. Have they worked? Yes. And I've also spent a little extra time getting to sleep one night asking myself why I didn't just put it through the boiler room, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

Merry Christmas.

Here in PA, a deer bagged that is unfit for human consumption, can be reported to the WCO who takes the carcass and issues a tag for the hunter to hunt another deer. I have seen some, far too many in my view, that were injured by botched shots by archers and rifle hunters.


I agree, far too few hunters spend enough time at the range to really be proficient with their arms. I have shot muzzleloaders for more years than I care to remember, but I have not found ML accuracy comparable from, say, a M98 with good handloads or with the Swedish M38 6.5mm at 100 yards.

What is the best, and consistant, 100 yard group you have had from any muzzleloader with iron sights?

Adam

[fabsroman]

Rattus,

It seems as though you have started this thread just to argue.

My quote was from your very first post to this thread, which essentially started this thread, and there was no reference to GD357's post or that those words came from GD357.

The entire statement that "A big bullet will short circuit the spinal column with spectacular result on OCCASION" just goes to show that neck shots should not be made. If it only short circuits the spinal column on OCCASION, that just isn't good enough. Maybe, if it was ALMOST ALWAYS short circuited the spinal column, then I think you can make an argument for it.

As far as the accuracy of muzzle loaders compared to center fire rifles, I find that you are comparing apples to oranges with your custom barrel muzzle loaders to off the shelf center fire rifles. How about comparing off the shelf muzzle loaders to off the shelf center fire rifles, or after market muzzle loader barrels to after market rifle barrels. For real consistency, how about comparing after market muzzle loader and after market rifle barrels from the same manufacturer. Somehow, I think the center fire rifles will come out ahead. Sure, you can win your argument if you compare the best shooting muzzle loaders to the crappiest center fire rifles, but that comparison wouldn't hold for the majority of hunters. Maybe it holds true for you in particular because you only have fine shooting muzzle loaders and crappy center fires, but I can assure you that a lot more hunters have better shooting center fires than muzzle loaders.

If you just feel like arguing about something, why not also put a post on here about taking deer with a .22 caliber rifle.

After the .22 caliber rifle thread, start a thread about whether or not 800 yard shots on deer are ethical.

This isn't the first time I have seen this neck shot subject on here, and who knows, maybe you even participated in a thread or two about neck shots already.

Merry Christmas buddy, and keep the argument coming just for the sake of argument. Right before New Years, I think you should post one of the subjects above so that we can all argue about something that has no real answer and is completely subjective from hunter to hunter.

In the end, if neck shots work for you, please continue to use them. However, please respect the rest of us that decide not to use them.

[rattus58]

Fabs.... you are the one arguing. I merely pointed out that neck shots on occasion produce SPECTACULAR results. It was not meant to say it does not kill 100% of the time in my experience. As to GD357, he mentioned some of the results which I did not go into detail.

YOU are the one who emphasized the OCCASION and YOU are the one who misread the quote you posted.

Aloha

[Mr. 16 gauge]

It seems as though you have started this thread just to argue.

SEEMS!!?!??!?!?! ....it's the only reason he posts in this forum!:mad: He just loves to stir the pot and get everyone riled up.

Another reason to quit this particular forum......apparently, the mods/administrators prefer to tolerate this kind of bullshit.

[rattus58]

Hi Adam.... :)

My Volunteer can shoot 1" groups periodically and less than 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards consistently with a 470 grain gas check bullet and a 480 grain Lyman 457121.

My Green mountain barrels in 58 and 40 shoot touching at 50 yards. I've not shot them to 100 yards except at bowling pins, which the 58 plasters them regularly. These groups are from shooting off of two bag rests, a very accurate arrangement for sighting in.

My Whites all shoot accurately too, with my T-bolt doing better than an inch from time to time my last target was 5/8" for two shots. I knew when I was ahead.

The problem is Adam, I don't hunt off of a two bag rest. I can't shoot worth a darn beyond 20 to 25 yards offhand, and so have to be sitting for any shot beyond that. Normally my hunting ranges are usually quite close, my longest recently was a lasered 123 yards in a nice in velvet axis buck on Lanai

Of the neck shots I have taken, one was about 3 yards, several others maybe 7 to 10, the doe that started this thread was at the most maybe 12 or 13 yards.

What shots do I take mostly? I advocate the double lung as the most effective shot for any hunter and take them every chance I get, but there are other very effective shots with big bullets as well besides the double lung.

Have a Merry Christmas Adam and enjoy a prosperous new year!!!

Aloha... :cool:

[rattus58]

Originally posted by Mr. 16 gauge
SEEMS!!?!??!?!?! ....it's the only reason he posts in this forum!:mad: He just loves to stir the pot and get everyone riled up.

Another reason to quit this particular forum......apparently, the mods/administrators prefer to tolerate this kind of bullshit.

Really.... MR SIXTEEN GAUGE... and how did I stir the pot here? Who was the one who misread, and INCORRECTLY emphasized my quote? And who is arguing MR SIXTEEN GAUGE it is not I.

And I really don't see YOU especially offering anything constructive on these threads so what is it... and let's let talk about bullshit, shall we... how does this thread rile up anyone... or are you one of those who feels that the TEXAS HEARTSHOT is the most ethical shot to take?

[skeet]

But as I said the average muzzy really isn't as accurate as the average centerfire...let me quote you

Boy now that is a statement of statements. Every muzzleloader I own today is easily as accurate as ANY off the shelf centerfire. I'm not as good a shot with my flintlock yet, but that is not the guns fault.

All of my Green Mountain Barrels are excellent, as are all the Clerke Barrels I shoot, so I'm not arguing with you, but I am taking issue with muzzleloaders not being as accurate, for in my OPINION, they surely are as accurate as any centerfire

Seems to me that your rifles are somwhat customized if they all have green mountain or clerke bbls. Sure some muzzleloaders are very accurate but I'm talking the average and it is almost impossible for them to be as accurate. The average muzzleloader shooter is just as inaccurate as the average centerfire shooter too. The only thing that makes them different is that the centerfire shooter has ammunition that is more consistent and better produced than what the average muzzy shooter is using. Also the rifles for the most part are not made any where near as well as the average centerfire. YOURS may be as accurate but of the dozen or so I had and have at this time the Savage ML 10 is the only one that comes really close. Oh and I must say..yeah...you do like to argue..not discuss. From time to time I have also done the same thing....but generally with people I know personally.:D

[Adam Helmer]

Merry Christmas to All.

Let's let this matter rest and ALL enjoy Peace On Earth for the next few days.

The Peace of the Lord be with you all.....

Adam

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet.... :)

Ok... then let's argue :D, if that is all I do. I don't disagree with you that many guns don't perform well, but my first muzzleloader was a T/C that I got through the Hunter Education Program. This gun did not shoot accurately at all. All of my T/C's except 1, have had to be returned to the factory and all except one Big Boar have had the barrels replaced.

My first try at a kit was a CVA. With a patched ball, that gun was very accurate. Now, most of the guns I shoot, I don't shoot to 100 yards, nor do most of the others I see shooting. If I can put my shots into one hole or touching at 50 yards I'm happy. That's what I build a load to.

With the CVA I started with round balls. My first days on the range were pretty dismal if I remember I was depressed. At 25 yards I couldn't get 5 shots to touch so I started looking for reasons.

The answer for the CVA was a linen patch from Dixie that we soaked in a sort of moose milk. That got my bullets touching at 25 yards. Finally it turned out that I needed to change my powder, which I did, and all of a sudden my bullets essentially were covering each other.

Out to 50 yards and they were still touching or within 1/2" of each other. I upped my loads till the group opened up some then backed off. At 100 yards into a pie plate or bowling pins, we were able to put pretty much 10 out of 10 into the 6" pie plate and so I was ready to go hunting. I don't know what the group would have been off the bench at 100, but I'd level a bet that someone accomplished could do 2" all day long.

What I learned from this experience, is that many guns shoot much better than we think if we try just a little harder.

CVA hasn't been known to be the worlds classiest barrel, but after a little experimenting, a lot of help from others we got the gun shooting well enough to go hunting and it took its first mouflon sheep that summer on Lanai.

Aloha... :cool:

[skeet]

Had about 6 T-C rifles and a few others and all of 'em would shoot pretty well. I wasn't interested in benchrest accuracy...just angle of deer. My max shot with any of the muzzys has been about 75 yds but ya can't see too much farther for decent shots in the woods...at least in Md. I shot roundballs also so I definitely wanted to keep my shots under 100 yds. Shooting 100 yds from a bench the best groups I ever had was with one rifle and it would shoot just a bit larger on average than 2 inches. The Savage 10ML does that easily though with the recommended loads of smokeless. Pyrodex or 777 and black the groups spread out to about 3 inches. So ....I use ...smokeless:D :D BTW years ago I did a test with the brass powder measures for loading muzzys and they were so inconsistent it wasn't funny. As much as 10 grains different from load to load. Went to weighing charges and it was better for accuracy. How many hunters ever check their powder measures??:rolleyes: Just too many variables to the muzzleloader sport for the AVERAGE shooter to be consistently accurate. I would say..you just ain't average.:D So stop arguin with me!!:eek:

[Swift]

To each his/her own. I'll stick with the boiler room.

[rattus58]

:D :D Hi Skeet,

You're so right about the volume measures. Just tap your measure sometime and be prepared to be astonished at how much it can settle.... :D

I'm with you on the measuring part too. I think that one of the great benefits that the Savage brings to those that shoot various types of powders or guns is measuring and weighing.

I also use a wad between powder and bullet. Some folks are using such things like cornmeal and cream of wheat as a buffer with great results, though I have to admit I haven't taken to denyin the chilluns their breakfast fer my personal satisfactions just yet... :)

Another thing about accuracy is having people like you drop these little pearls... like the powder measure idiosyncrasies and weighing powder, or at least tapping the measure and refilling.

Smokeless is so accurate because I believe its more consistent. What can we learn from that... :D :D No... don't run out and load your gun with smokeless, but some powders are going to be more consistent than others.

As much as I prefer to use 3F for all my guns, if I'm shooting for burgers, I have to use 2F Triple Seven or Goex for my best groups. RS is not as good as either of the two in my 58's.

So, may Santa bring you sleighload powder, the keys to a private preserve where you can bring yer bud's to go hunting, and lastly, he brings you good health and prosperity...

Much Aloha and Merry Christmas

[fabsroman]

First and foremost, may Santa bring you health and prosperity. You can get whatever you want if you have those two, or at least live a pretty decent life with those two versus without them.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

[rattus58]

Hey Fabsroman... Same to you and yours.. Much Aloha... :cool:

[Deerman]

I've made one neck shot on purpose.The doe droped right in her tracks,but it took a follow-up shot to finish her.Last time I tried it.