Indoor Range - No Lead Bullets?

[Rev]

I just went to an indoor pistol range today. I had never been to an indoor range before (I always had gone to outdoor ranges). The range rules stated NO LEAD BULLETS. They said it was the city (Houston) that required that rule due to the danger of lead poisoning.

I shoot almost entirely LSWC's in my center fire pistols, so I guess I won't be going back to that range. Is this rule generally enforced in indoor ranges?

I'll just stick with my old outdoor ranges as they don't get as smoky and I can shoot any ammo (non armor piercing) that I want to.:D

Rev

[Jack]

A lot of indoor ranges ban exposed lead bullets now, due to lead particuates in the air. Several years ago, OSHA tested the air at several indoor ranges and discovered very high levels of airborn lead.
One solution is a ventilation system, but some rather high powered fans are needed to adequately ventilate. I shot at an indoor range with a ventilation system a number of years ago, and I could feel my clothes flapping....
Rev, have you noticed the plated bullets that are showing up in many reloading places now? Plated bullets qualify as 'no lead exposed', and are OK to shoot at most indoor ranges.

[Larryjk]

Air- born lead was the problem. We have a city owned and operated range at the municipal recreation center.( Wyoming) Some politically correct people tried to get it shut down to make into a weight room and got EPA to test the air. They said it was one of the best ranges they had tested and it passed with flying colors. Some people had blood tests and found some were quite high in lead in their blood. Turns out most of those with high blood levels were auto mechanics and coal miners. Turned out the worst complainers about their blood were running a cast bullet operation out of their garage with very little ventilation.

[Adam Helmer]

Rev,

It seems more and more ranges are tightening their rules.

We had an indoor range at the agency and passed the inspection initially, then OSHA made the lead limit four times stricter and we had to add two new ventilation units to comply with the new specs. Our range was like a wind tunnel with 2 or 4 changes of air per minute, as I recall.

I prefer outdoor ranges.

Adam

[PJgunner]

"Turned out the worst complainers about their blood were running a cast bullet operation out of their garage with very little ventilation."

I'm thinking they did a lot more wrong than poor ventilation.

I've cast bullet for 54 years man and boy, both for my own personal use and for an outfit that cast bullets for sale. The casting was done in a small 10x10 foot room witht he door closed, usually at least three of us working with each of us having two pots going, one to cast and the other with fresh metal melting. it doesn't take long to drain a 20 pound pot when you're using two 6 cavity molds, alternating back and forth. We smoked, drank Cokes and even ate out lunch there which as we all know today was something that should not have been done.

Many years later, when Kommiefornia started griping and moaning about lead, I had my blood serum level tested. It was not only normal, but was considered below what was considered average for a person of my age and below what the current allowable standards of today are.
These days, I'm very careful to keep things that way.

FWIW, those total Metal jacket bullets that are nothing but copper plated lead are acceptable at most indoor ranges. Some of them now make you buy their ammo which has the TMJ bullet and lead free primers.
Paul B.

[Larryjk]

PJgunner, You guys did it all,------if you were trying to have high lead levels in your blood! Small room, with no ventilation, smoking , drinking, eating, and I'll throw in having a good time.
I am always into guns or ammunition and should have a lead problem, but I have other habits and problems that helped me out. I have sinus problems, so I have always taken large doses of vitamin C. Turns out that helps shed lead from your system. Since I am always into the guns or ammunition, my hands are usually needing a washing, and I wash them quite often. The first wash should be with cold water so your pores din't open up and hang onto the lead contamination. Then use plenty of soap a brush to get your hands clean. Don't eat without washing your hands first. Don't smoke in an environment where lead contamination may be present in the air. When I am melting lead, I have an exhaust fan going right over the melting pot. If I am melting large quantities, I do that in my garage with the doors up and a large fan pulling fresh air in the back door and blowing across the work area out the big doors. Just seemed like a good thing to do. My blood has very little lead contamination.

[Rev]

Heavy metal poisoning is certainly no joke. The term "mad as a hatter" came from the mercury that was once used in the manufacture of hats. It is my understanding that one gets heavy metals into the bloodstream from either breathing the fumes or eating it. I don't think you can absorb it directly through the skin. I think that applies to all heavy metals. A good rule is an ounce of prevention............but I can't see any need to obsess on it.

Rev

[Larryjk]

Rev, One of my shooting friends is also my family doctor. We had a long discussion about lead problems and those steps were his recommendations. Archie didn't obsess but gave me all of the things that would help duck the lead problem.

[Rev]

Originally posted by Larryjk
Rev, One of my shooting friends is also my family doctor. We had a long discussion about lead problems and those steps were his recommendations. Archie didn't obsess but gave me all of the things that would help duck the lead problem.

Larry, I didn't mean you or anyone specific was obsessing. I agree that good ventillation and lots of hand washing are prudent. I plan to shoot lead bullets for the duration though. :p

Rev

[dakotah]

Years ago we used to shoot indoors at National Guard armories. I don't know of any that are still open to the public. I think the reason was lead in the air.

I never was convinced that that was the problem. But then I might be one of the first to blame things on politicians.

[Larryjk]

Rev, I too will be shooting lead bullets in my handguns for sure and some of the long guns as long as they are available , and as long as I can make them. I won't be running out of lead for some time.

[PJgunner]

"I don't think you can absorb it directly through the skin. I think that applies to all heavy metals. A good rule is an ounce of prevention............but"

How many times have you eaten birds you've shot and maybe swallowed a few pieces of shot. it'll pass right on through.
Regarding absorption through the skin, yes and no. You've seen those very old cartridges where the bullet has turned white with lead oxide? That white powder is redily absorbed through the skin. I don't think a bullet casting elcetric pot will get hot enough to cause elad to evaprate, at least mine don't, but if you're using something like a Coleman stove where there is no thermostat to control the temperature, now there could be a problem with lead evaporation and brathing the stuff in. it's not so much of a problem with lead levels in the body. Today, housed are no longer painted with lead based paint. Tetra/ethyl lead is no longer used in gasoline so that's remove massive quantities of lead from the air. Too bad. That stuff made my 66 Mustang go like a bat out of hell. :D
My ex-son-in law used to be a mechanic for a Ford dealership and they sent him to a school to be an emmissions specialist. he was told that the fumes from the current unleaded garbage we have to stick in our cars actually affects your imminue system in a negative way. You don't her anything about that from the ecofreaks. :mad:
How many of us here used to play with mercury as a kid? I sure did. I was about 6 or 7 when I came dowm with Scarlet Fever. The fever and chills with the attendant teeth chattering and bobily tremor was something else. They tried to take my temperature one time and I bit clean through the thermometer and ended up swallowing some glass and mercury. The doctor said to not worry, it'll just pass though. Today, if that doctor used a mercurial thermometer and I bit through it, I'd have some scumbad shyter trying to get me to sue the doctor.
What a sad state of affairs this country has become.
Paul B.

[Larryjk]

PJgunner, I don't think I am paranoid, but I do take all of the precautions I can with my health because I have limited kidney function from a reaction with prescribed medicine. It will really gets your attention when a kidney specialist says " Well, you won't have to be on dialysis yet." My ears perked right up so I wouldn't miss anything he said. Yes, I am darned cautious.

[PJgunner]

Yeah Larry, I too am a lot more cautious when working with lead. I never knew that vitamin C was good in helping expel lead from the body un til somewhat recently in my bullet casting life. Seems like my tendency to drink a lot of orange juice may have been a contributing factor in keeping the lead level in my body as low as it has been. I guess that sometimes one does the right thing even when one doesn't know any better.
Paul B.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah Rev. Even Shooters Station in Conroe now bans lead bullets on its indoor range. Good luck finding one around any more that doesn't

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

Hey, Fellows. It may be a long drive for some of you but lead bullets are not banned on the indoor pistol range of the Rawlins Family Recreation Center. Indoor range is closed for the summer but the Outdoor range located I mile north of town is open 7 days a week. Hours are 1:30 pm to 8:00pm Monday through Friday, 8:00am to 8:00 pm Saturday and Sunday. Besides action pistol ranges (8 ea.), and three cowboy ranges, there are skeet (2 fields), trap (4 fields), 10 covered positions on a 300 meter large bore range, and longer ranges for big bore and buffalo rifles to 1,000 yards. Come play!

[PJgunner]

The sad thing about lead bullets being banned on indoor ranges is that the bullets are NOT the problem. :eek: :confused: Seems like most of the airborne lead came from the lead styphnate used in the ammo's primers. :eek: However, as lead in any form these days is not politically correct, the bullets get the axe and the cause of the problem stays. The one indoor rage I went to here in town will allow you to only use their ammo. Total metal jacketed bullets and lead free primers. They ain't cheap. :(
I just go to my outdoor range an shoot what the heck I want. :cool:
Paul B.

[Rev]

If lead bullets are the cause of any problems that I may have, it's taken 50 years for them to manafest themselves, and I still don't see them. As well as firearms, I've always enjoyed fooling around with cars, motorcycles, go carts, etc.

Long ago, we used leaded gasoline as a general shop solvent to clean parts. I never heard of any heavy metal poisoning from that use causing epidemics back then either.

I'm not saying that heavy metal poisoning doesn't exist, just that it doesn't often come from lead bullets.

Rev

[Larryjk]

Rev, I can't disagree with you because I don't know the science involved in the problem. However, try to convince the California condors ( I keep forgetting that California isn't normal) that it is something else that hasn't been identified that is causing them to decline.
I used to wash grease off my hands with gasoline on the farm and was more concerned about catching on fire than any other ill effect.
Lead is a lot like aliens. Everyone screams, points their finger and knows it is bad because that is what has been pounded into their beliefs for so long. Kind of like global warming.
The ice at the north pole is melting but I see Miami isn't under water yet! Maybe the calculations were a little off!
Anyhow lead is under fire no matter how we feel about it. The price had been down to $1570 a metric ton and jumped back to $1700 over the weekend. Can't wait to see the London quote tomorrow.

[PJgunner]

Does anyone know exactly how many Condors were found dead?
I ask because when they pushed for the lead shot ban in waterfowl hunting, it was based on two dead loons. I forget where I read that, but I do remember it said two. The late Elmer Keith proposed that we stay with lead shot and use heavier shot. He felt that the heavier shot would sink deeper into the lake bottoms and not be eaten by the birds. Of course, he also felt that the .270 was way too light for deer.
Interesting thing though. If lead gets banned for all bullets, it's put several bullet makers out of business. Nosler has a monometal bullet aas does barnes and maybe a few smaller companies, but do Hornady, Speer and Sierra have anything ready to go. Are they even trying.
Paul B.

[dakotah]

I really don't believe that the ban was based on facts. I am convinced it was/is an attempt to ban hunting one step at a time. (I wonder about the cruel inhumane treatment police are going to be called down regarding shooting criminals with bullets containing lead?)

Most centerfire rifle and pistols shooters have a choice -- albeit one I don't want to have to make and it of course adds costs. They can go to copper or a combination of materials such as heavy metal base with copper surrounding th heavy metal for the base and a copper front section. But what about the traditionalists. I just can't see a coon skin capped hunter with his old flinlock out hunting deer with a sabbotted copper bullet. It is an image that does not add up.

About Elmer Keith, I think he was right about most hunting situations for where he hunted. (I think a 270 is OK for deer--don't get me wrong.)

The lead poisoning issue is based on emotions of people with little understanding -- at least that is my belief.

[Adam Helmer]

I could not find a "body count" on condors, nor could I find a range of area they fly around in.

It seems the sophisticated folks in California banned mountain lion hunting to spare the "nice" cats from hunters. Now, the cats eat joggers on a regular basis. I see this lead ban as more social control that the facts will not catch up with in our lifetimes, but the bans will go on and on.

Adam

[Larryjk]

Ffirst it was no lead for waterfowl. Now no lead for areas inhabited by condors. What next? Maybe some research that shows what really kills these birds and is the remedy worse than the lead! What if the condors keep dying. Do we let them disappear quietly without bringing attention to this stupidity, or do we go on to the next step? I'll bet the truth will be very hard to find.