Your not gonna like this: [Archive]

rattus58

08-22-2008, 12:39 PM

Immigrant issues? Don't look for Obama for help. I'm not sure you can count on McCain on this either.

Barak Obama is anti american. I don't give whit for his populist rhetoric, his messiahonic projections from Palosi and the Democrats, I prefer to just look at his actions. I also don't like people speaking "down" to me, and I don't like people who LIE. And LIE he does, the latest was his vote against medical attention for a live baby delivered after an abortion. When I heard the tape from Obama's speech against medical help for the baby, it made me physically sick to my stomach...

Essentially, that rectal orifice, said that to get care for the baby would require getting another doctor to take care of it and that would be a burden on the hospital and doctors, well how about that live child?? He went on to say that saving the baby, giving it medical care, or basically attempting to give it life would be against the wishes of the mother of the baby.

Who ARE these people? He is about as close to an anti-christ as I've seen recently. He has said, and I'm sure you've all seen it yourself by now, the tape of him saying that if his daughters made a mistake in judgement, he didn't want them burdened with a baby.

This guy is way beyond being pro-choice, he's for infanticide as well.

His stands against free trade, his stand against the columbia treaty to allow OUR MANUFACTURERS to be able to sell without tarriff (and let me tell you, it isn't only unions workers he has to represent) because unions in their (not all) idiotic protectionist rhetoric are for a zero sum life for americans. Well no thanks.

My vote is AGAINST THIS YOYO.... even though I don't think McCain is much better, he is at least prolife (mee too..) but that is not my issue, taxes is my issue, gun ownership is my issue, and the right to fill my car with gasoline, since I'm not wanting to trade in two new cars for electricity right now... besides I love spooling my turbo.... :)

Valigator

08-22-2008, 01:14 PM

Get em...rattus58

BILLY D.

08-22-2008, 11:15 PM

+2 for rattus.

Best wishes, Bill

fabsroman

08-22-2008, 11:51 PM

So far, of all the political ads I have seen run during the Olympics, the one I like the best is the one by McCain stating that this nation has had a rough 4 years. At least he understands that. Sad thing is that I don't think it is going to get any better.

The issue with taxes isn't an easy one. Honestly, if I were elected as President, I would cut off some of the benefits to the poor and tax everybody else some more. Not only do we need to cut spending, but we need to generate more money through taxes. How else are we ever going to balance the budget and at least partially reduce the national debt of $9,000,000,000.00? That my friends is a rather large number. What my generation, the older generation, and younger generation has done is take from every generation. We have taken from the prior generations and the generations to come, and we want more. We want our turbos to spool away, we want our vacation homes, we want a rifle in every caliber and a shotgun in every gauge, and we want a farm to hunt on too.

The next thing I would address is social security and medicare, and create a further sliding scale to do away with it gradually. Those under 18 will be responsible for their own retirement. That way, people will not feel a false sense of security that the government is going to take care of them after they retire. There are plenty of people out there that didn't save for retirement, thought they could live off social security, and then were horribly shocked after they retired. Same goes for medicare. The younger generation would also experience a decreasing social security and medicare tax as they got older.

Immigration would be another issue.

Health care, while being an issue, I have no idea how to address it other than to tell Americans to buy a catastrophic insurance plan that covers incidents above $10,000. Most people can afford minor hospital bills, but it is the unexpected large bill that kills people. I have one client that pays over $800 a month for health insurance. That is $9,600 a year for her and her 3 daughters. I'm sure she could pay most of her medical bills for the year with that $9,600. When people have great, or free insurance, they tend to go to the doctor for every single cough and sneeze, which drives up the cost of insurance.

rattus58

08-23-2008, 04:34 AM

Hi Fabrosman.... :)

I agree with all you say except the raising taxes. Increased expense reduces consumption and that is what taxes does. Create an environment where people spend money. Giving the Government too much money gives them too many ways to waste it.

Otherwise you is right on ... :)

Aloha... :cool:

L. Cooper

08-23-2008, 12:48 PM

Fabs, you need three more zeros in that National Debt total.

For perspective, if you had a million dollars ($1,000,000) and you spend it at $1000 a day, it will last 1000 days or about 3.5 years.

If you have a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) and spend it at $1000 a day it will las about 3500 years.

The American National Debt is going up at a rate of over One Billion dollars a day

There is a disaster on its way.

rattus58

08-23-2008, 02:38 PM

Coop... :)

Though I share your concerns of the debt, aren't you sorta assuming course that there is no other income coming in, no growth, so to speak? The ratio of national debt to Gross National Product is high right now because of the war. If we can get out of Iraq, not go through another 9/11, and quit spending money on roads to nowhere. But on that note, its not as high as its ever been by some 30 points.

What we HAVE to get a handle on, are all the "unfunded" debt we have such as social security and medicaid/medicare, which the way they have it now by paying a flat amount per month to insurance companies to handle medicare is a better way to do it, but now they want to cut payments to insurance companies. You cannot trust this government (Democrats).

Republicans have got to start attacking Democrats on facts. Republicans have got to start making heroes out of those who support their families, take responsibility for their actions, and who stand up for the rights of kids to have a true education through real choice and not rhetoric.

We have the highest debt that we've had is true, but our economy is also the highest its ever been and with George Bush, its grown an AVERAGE of 4.5% a year outside of 9/11. This is better than clinton, who they all like to say had the greatest economy on earth... he had a true republican house and senate who made it what it was, but he raised taxes and that hurt, Bush had a wildly spending bunch of repuplecrats and still outgrew Clinton and probably Reagan.

We only have to reign in spending. Obama will expand spending at a rate that will make Bush seem like a Quaker.

Aloha.... :cool:

fabsroman

08-24-2008, 12:18 AM

Coop,

You are right. That was only 9 billion that I posted and not 9 trillion. 9 trillion dollars looks like this:

$9,000,000,000,000.00

Rattus,

Yes, you can argue that if the government didn't tax people as much, they would have more discretionary income for spending. That is a theory. However, they don't always spend every single dollar of that extra income. Sometimes, they save it instead of spending it, which probably wouldn't be a bad thing with this generation.

Does anybody know what a single year's budget for the US government looks like? Is it more than $9 trillion, or is it less. I actually have no idea what the number is, and it would probably help me put my head around the national debt number. For instance, if somebody owes $9 in debt, but makes $100,000 a year, it is pretty easy to reign in spending to pay off that $9 debt. Now, if somebody owes $100,000 and makes $9 a year, that is a whole different ball game.

rattus58

08-24-2008, 05:31 AM

I'm not an accountant nor a cpa, but I understand finance some in my business as a financial planner. Tax revenues go up when taxes are low. This has happened always. It is true that you cannot tax your way out of debt nor to prosperity.

Spending is the root of all debt, period. Just remember that the war is sucking up billions, creating this debt. Obama wants to trade the military debt for local spending, so don't expect the Democrats to do anything but continue the debt, reduce your freedoms, and they WILL take your guns away.

Aloha... :cool:

fabsroman

08-25-2008, 01:07 AM

"Spending is the root of all debt, period. Just remember that the war is sucking up billions, creating this debt. Obama wants to trade the military debt for local spending, so don't expect the Democrats to do anything but continue the debt, reduce your freedoms, and they WILL take your guns away."

Trust me, you won't find me voting for Obama even if he was the only candidate running.

To a point I think you are right about the reduction of the tax rate causing a greater return in total for the government, but it only works to an extent. As a hypothetical, suppose the US lowered the tax rate to 1%, do you really think the total amount collected would be more or less than at the current rates? By the way, this is the lawyer side in me. LOL There is always a gray area somewhere.

rattus58

08-25-2008, 04:42 AM

Hi Fabsroman... :D :D

If our economy was really burning up and Everyone paid that 1% tax, maybe. If everyone paid a flat tax of some amount, that would take care of it too... no loopholes to hide in... but then you have the social engineers saying that whoa... wait a minute... that works against the poor and is regressive... so we carve out the poor somehow... maybe make food, drugs, and the first home tax free... and then in twenty years we'll be right back to volumes thick tax code again.... :)

Aloha.... That is the cynic in ME.... :)

Aloha again... :cool:

fabsroman

08-26-2008, 12:20 AM

The whole flat tax thing will never work
just because it would be hard on the poor, along with a million other issues. Currently, I think a married couple with 2 kids can make $40,000 without paying a dollar in tax. The tax code will never be simple again, which is nuts in itself.

By the way, a flat tax on income wouldn't be regressive. However, a sales tax is regressive because the poor usually have to spend all their money to survive, whereas the rick do not. The current estate and gift tax we have is a progressive tax because it only taxes the rich. Personally, I'm all for a flat tax. Everybody pays their share, period. No ifs ands or buts, regardless of whether you are rich or poor.

The reason I came back to this thread is because of this article:

http://finance.yahoo.com/focus-retirement/article/105617/The-Only-Way-to-Fix-Social-Security?mod=retirement-preparation

It seems as though social security will be in the hole by $7 trillion by 2017 and medicare will also be in the hole by $34 trillion. That is utterly nuts.

rattus58

08-26-2008, 11:57 AM

Actually you're right, I got the tax proposals mixed up there, the universal sales tax and the income flat tax, and you're right again, they'd never work though I am a strong proponet personally for an income flat tax, as unpopular as that is.

I've always wondered how long people will take to realize that the Democrats who started Social Security, never expected to pay out from it since life expectance back then didn't reach the age of social security. By the 40's there were some reaching social security age, and by 1958, we realized that oh oh...

By the 80's Social Security was in the tank and it was empty. Bush tried to address it, the Democrates Demogogue it and nothing gets done. This is where Republicans really tick me off. If you stand for something, stand up for it. I like a flat tax, I get criticized for it all the time, even from, it seems, mostly republicans... I don't think Democrats understand the concept... I mean that sincerely. I'm gonna be working till I die... I've resigned myself to that... :grin: My kids can't bail me out.

Interesting article and I believe it, have believed it, and have preached just that too

Aloha... :cool:

Classicvette63

08-26-2008, 12:42 PM

What's wrong with a tiered flat tax? If you make 0-xx,xxx, you pay X%, if you get into the next tier, you pay a higher percent. No deductions, loopholes etc. Do away with all other taxes to keep things simple.

Why is it that if Fabs and I make the same amount of money per year, but his tax guy is better than the tax guy I hired, he gets to pay less in taxes? That's messed up.

I agree that we shouldn't raise taxes. The more money you give them, the more they will spend. Ain't any of you guys been married?:eek:

Valigator

08-26-2008, 05:19 PM

Look I am no tax genius like Fabs, we have an amendment 5 on the table here for a penny cent increase, initially I was for it because let the freakin illegals pay their share of everything they walk out of the store with...but then I got you know what up my backside and decided before they come crawling for money again let them cut the fat...out of the over-bloated underperforming agencies we have spent millions on....teachers are whining big time here...but you know Val, she follows the big money on the school budget and the scams being perpetrated by vendors and buying property for new schools got my feathers in an uproar...I have nothin against teachers and they need to be paid their due, but they also need to police their own budget which they dont do...instead they come to the taxpayor when they should demand an audit of where thier funds go to..

Valigator

08-26-2008, 05:21 PM

Oh and why you guys are tinkering back and forth on the tax issue, you might want to read the fine print in either of them, somehow they dont quite put that on the ballots...

rattus58

08-26-2008, 11:10 PM

Of course I'm married, that is where all my "spendable" income goes :grin: I need a little for myself now.... :D :D
Aloha... :cool:

fabsroman

08-27-2008, 08:42 AM

Hey Classic, why is it that if you and I commit the same crime in the same jurisdiction, and I have a better lawyer than you I will get off or get less time than you? LOL

Last night I met with 3 people that are starting a home improvement business, one of whom already owns a commercial asphalt business, and he was telling me that his CPA from last year was so negligent with his taxes that the IRS audited him for a week and they didn't even want to talk to his CPA on the matter. He ended up getting dinged for some interest and penalties, but not too much once they pieced his entire return together.

Pick your professionals carefully. Yes, some tax preparers can promise the world, and I have seen some returns that would land people in jail if they were audited. I don't know if the taxpayer even knew that when they signed the tax return. If it is too good to be true, it usually is. If one preparer can get you a much larger refund than another, you need to sit down and ask yourself why.

Anyway, this is the reason that Maryland is requiring every tax preparer to register in the state for a license if they aren't already an attorney, CPA, or enrolled agent with the IRS. The new bill passed this session also requires them to obtain a certain amount of continuing education every so often.

As far as the progressive "flat tax" that you are proposing, I definitely am not for that. That doesn't even make it fair at all. Honestly, we could accomplish the same thing right now just by using the current tax brackets and getting rid of the rest of the code.

The reason why we will never have a flat tax is because the tax code allows government to influence how we spend our money. The current code encourages things like buying a home, starting a business, remodeling a home with energy efficient windows and doors, buying a hybrid vehicle. Heck, they just passed a bill giving new home buyers a $7,500 tax credit if they buy a house before some time in 2009.

How many lobbyists do you think work on having provisions put into the tax code to favor their industry?

By the way, I'm married too, and my wife is a saint compared to me in the spending category and I thought I was pretty good about it before I met her.

rattus58

08-27-2008, 11:26 AM

WEll then.... we need a tax break fer her interests then... :D

A Flat tax won't work because the governors (Congress) can't stand to let things be ungoverned.

Aloha... :cool: :D

Skinny Shooter

08-27-2008, 12:59 PM

Aren't the ones who would be paying a flat tax actually the tax-paying residents of the US?

What about the rest of the individuals who dodge taxes?

rattus58

08-27-2008, 02:41 PM

If we find em we hang em.... what's wrong about dat? :D :D

skeet

08-27-2008, 04:35 PM

A flat tax would work. especially if we started it at a reasonable amount..say 10 grand. No write offs..at a flat rate of 6%. Make 40 grand pay 2400...100 grand pay 6000. No corporate write offs at a rate of 4% of profit before paying dividends. No tax on Social Security payments. Say it won't work...BULL. May not be popular because it would put a bunch of people out of work...especially lobbyists and tax lawyers but it would be good for the average taxpayer. And for the ones who say it ain't fair...who said life is fair. Live with a simple tax code instead of what we have...Even lawyers don't understand it all. How can the average person file his own taxes and have things turn out right(fair??). Not dissing ya Fabs but you know it is true..the lawyers(lobbyists) have made it necessary to have a tax preparer. Just shouldn't be that way. At least it would be the same for everyone!!

Jack

08-27-2008, 05:42 PM

"No write offs..at a flat rate of 6%."
That would be very nice!
Remember when Steve Forbes was running for the Republican nomination, and pushing the flat tax idea? He proposed a flat rate of 17%. Hmmmmm, maybe not quite so nice.
Then, some economists ran Forbes' numbers, and discovered that, to generate the revenue Forbes said the tax would generate, you'd have to use a flat tax rate of 33%.
Starts not sounding so good......

Skinny Shooter

08-27-2008, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by rattus58
If we find em we hang em.... what's wrong about dat? :D :D

Hmmmmm ;)

fabsroman

08-27-2008, 08:42 PM

Skeet,

I'm not going to disagree with you on the taxes issue. Heck, during tax season I find myself up late at night researching issues that my clients are bringing me for the first time. I don't even know all of it.

Then again, the laws in society are insane nowadays. That is why attorneys practice in specific fields. There is no way we can possibly know it all. The world is getting way too complicated.

skeet

08-28-2008, 12:16 AM

If every worker in the US and all corporations paid the flat rates of 6 and 4 percent ..the figures came out higher than what the US is getting from taxes(income) now..quite a bit higher if I remember correctly. Remember no write offs..every body would pay. No getting out of it. Of course this will never happen. Too many people would fight it tooth and nail...especially the politicians. They wouldn't be able to peddle their influence in tax issues any longer..Lobbyists.. Tax lawyers..Lot of money there. Fabs is right..they wouldn't let it float. And a lot of people would go ahead and pay their taxes if they knew it was done fairly and equitably..which isn't true now. The tax code should not be too hard for the average taxpayer to understand...much less a tax lawyer.:rolleyes:

Jack

08-28-2008, 10:54 AM

For probably more than you want to know about the flat tax concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax

skeet

08-28-2008, 11:20 AM

er....ahhh..thanks for all the info...I think. That article was even more mixed up than I am..lots of...info to be sure. Was they fer it....or agin it??:D :D

rattus58

08-28-2008, 11:45 AM

A flat tax would, for one, put out of business a new class of worker, the white collar cpa, according to many.... This is the problem with congress, they will never suffer by their actions. Ten years and they get a pension of 6 figures, free health care for life, and millions in perks along the way.... Term Limits, no pension, no free anything should be the rule.

A flat tax on ALL income would increase revenues without question. It would also eliminate the IRS. I mean, with no child left behind, we should be able to figure out 6% or 15% of something.....

Most of the proposals I've seen are 17% with deductions for home mortgages and healthcare.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

Jack

08-28-2008, 11:29 PM

"Was they fer it....or agin it??":D
Uhhhhh, yes.
Well, maybe no. :confused:
Oh, Hell, don't ask me, I just read it, and I can't tell!:D

fabsroman

08-28-2008, 11:48 PM

Rattus/Tom,

The white collar CPA wouldn't be put out of business. Plus, you would be surprised at how many non CPA's prepare taxes. Do you think the guys sitting behind the desks at Jackson Hewitt, Liberty Tax Services, H&R Block, etc. are CPA's. Not even close.

Us CPA's would still have plenty of work to do because there are things called audits, bookkeeping, certified financial statements, etc. Out of all the CPA's that I went to school with, I don't know one of them other than myself that prepares tax returns, and I do it because I am a sole practitioner who happens to be an attorney and CPA with a bunch of small business clients.

Trust me, I think the tax code is way too confusing for most people to take advantage of the tax breaks out there. Come tax season, I spend half my time debating with clients over what is and what is not deductible.

By the way, I have no idea what "no child left behind means". Does that mean that children no longer get held back a grade if they are not doing well? If so, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Kind of like telling all children that they are always winners no matter the outcome, but I digress.

You have to wonder how simple the tax code was when it was first implemented.

Classicvette63

08-29-2008, 04:23 PM

Fabs, Why wouldn't a tiered flat tax be fair. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong. These figures are just examples, they could be adjusted either way.

You make $50,000 to $100,000 you pay 17% income tax
You make $101,000 to$200,000 you pay 19% etc.

The tiers or brackets could be large or small. And thats it. No deductions and no other taxes either. Goodbye sales tax, property taxes, school tax(what a F' ing rip that is, I have to pay it twice, once for my house and once for hunting camp and I don't even have any curtain climbers of my own) gas tax, everything.

Very simple, very easy, very fair and very unlikely. It's ashame we have to keep a convoluted system to benefit a few.

rattus58

08-29-2008, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by fabsroman
Rattus/Tom,

The white collar CPA wouldn't be put out of business. Plus, you would be surprised at how many non CPA's prepare taxes. Do you think the guys sitting behind the desks at Jackson Hewitt, Liberty Tax Services, H&R Block, etc. are CPA's. Not even close.

Us CPA's would still have plenty of work to do because there are things called audits, bookkeeping, certified financial statements, etc. Out of all the CPA's that I went to school with, I don't know one of them other than myself that prepares tax returns, and I do it because I am a sole practitioner who happens to be an attorney and CPA with a bunch of small business clients.

Trust me, I think the tax code is way too confusing for most people to take advantage of the tax breaks out there. Come tax season, I spend half my time debating with clients over what is and what is not deductible.

By the way, I have no idea what "no child left behind means". Does that mean that children no longer get held back a grade if they are not doing well? If so, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Kind of like telling all children that they are always winners no matter the outcome, but I digress.

You have to wonder how simple the tax code was when it was first implemented.

Hi Fabs... :)

I agree that first of all, I don't think that the flat tax will happen. Secondly, if the tax was implemented as some think it will, (I'm not of that school), the income tax will be just two lines... how much you make, how much they take. That will eliminate the need to scores of preparers.

Business interests, on the other hand, I haven't seen addressed by the flat tax proposals, so I'm not really able to comment on that part of tax discussion. The question of income from stocks and investments hasn't been addressed that I know of either, because if you lose $1,000,000, let's say, do you just wipe out income for just one year? I don't know... do you just get to write off $3,000 a year for the next three generations of your family? I don't know... lots of questions for such a simplistic, proposal. That being said, if after all the other deductions and so forth and closing of loopholes, whatever that really means, tax is a flat amount, I'm ok with that too.

I don't think any of it will happen..... and you'll still be with the eyeshades, and I'll still be peddling pre-tax cafeteria products.... :D....

Aloha... :cool::D

fabsroman

08-30-2008, 02:40 AM

Classic,

I don't think the current tiered tax rates are fair either. I just have a serious problem with taxing those that make more money at a higher rate. Yeah, you can say they can afford it better than the poor, but how is that fair? If you want fairness, everybody should pay the exact same percentage of income in taxes, regardless of whether they are rich or poor. We are always carving out little exceptions for the poor. For some, it is no taxes. For others it is welfare, food stamps, and section 8 housing. As far as I am concerned, enough with all of it. Those who work hard will benefit, and those that don't will not. No more free handouts, and that includes medicare, medicaid, and social security.

With the exception of the Civil War, you just have to wonder how there was no income tax in the US until 1913, and ever since it has been getting worse and worse. The poor had to take care of themselves back then, and everybody had to provide for their own health care and retirement.

What irks the hell out of me is that I am paying 15.3% in FICA/Medicare as a self employed individual, but others are only paying half of it because their employer picks the other half up. I guess that is the cost of being self employed. It wouldn't be so bad if social security wasn't scheduled to go broke right before I retire, and the only way to fix that problem is to RAISE taxes some more. I think I have said this before on here, but after taking into account what my wife makes, everything I make is taxed at close to 50%, and at 56% if we were to spend it (i.e., 6% sales tax). I told my wife tonight that if taxes are raised any further, I am going to quit working and just take care of our kids.

I just wonder where all this money is going to.