Why we're in this mess or the end of capitalism

[Classicvette63]

We all acknowledge the country's in a mess right now. Here's what some of the players in this fiasco recieved for ruining this country.

Kerry Killinger- 44 million
Alan Fishman- replaced Killinger, 19 million for 3 weeks of work
Stan O'Neal- 161 million
Charles Prince- 105 million
Angelo Mozilo- 56 million
Ken Thompson- 42 million
Richard Syrow- 16 million
James Cayne- 13 million
John Thain- 9 million
Dan Mudel- 8 million

These are the severance packages for people who couldn't do their fecking jobs. Grand total 473 million dollars.

Are people outta their @#$%^& MINDS! This country cannot support that kind of blatant greed. What do you or I get if we can't do our job? A pink slip, that's it.

Hopefully, someday in the future, folks will look back and see this as the beginning of the end for capitalism. It doesn't work, it hasn't worked and it can't work, get over it.

I've been saying this for years, time to come up with something else. Big business is bad business and if the events of the past couple weeks don't convince people of that, well....Castro is still holding out too.

In 2007, the top 1% took in 20% of the total income in this country. In 1980 that figure was 8%. The last time that figure was so grossly lopsided? 1928
1% taking 20% of the pie. That's about as assanine thing as I've ever heard. Unreal doesn't even begin to describe it.

[rattus58]

What you illustrate has nothing to do with the condition we are in. A board of directors, approved by the stockholders, enlisted these people and gave them their pay packages. Most of these packages are based upon the gains that the company made during the period they were employed. Nothing wrong with that.

With those that left in 13 weeks, well that's the Boards decision... if you don't like it... tough.. unless they have done something wrong. So what is your beef? You want to be able to set the salaries of someone in private enterprise? Good... then you are willing to limit the salaries of movie stars too then right? Someone makes or invents something... they can only earn so much right... the rest goes to taxes?

People make this kind of money because of capitalism... Just because you are jealous of this only tells me that you feel left out. Good... Barrak Obama has your answer... he's going to buy your soul for $1,000. Take from the Rich and Give to the Poor.... only means that there will be more poor in the future. The poor in this country aren't all that poor, compared to world standard, so actually I'm really not sympathetic. I've been on welfare, I've been on Food Stamps... I've been broke... and you haven't seen anything yet till Barroke Obama get's his way... Taxes comes from earnings. If there are no earnings, there will be no taxes. If the Rich decide to stop working because of taxes, and they have the wealth to do this, YOU will pay for... and of course you will do it gladly, because, you want to tax the Rich....

Give me a break... I don't like all the WHINING people do because of someone elses good fortune. If they broke laws... I don't care who they are, they go to jail and pay back all they stole. Period. This includes Barney Franks and all the others involved in the Freddie and Fannie and the $145 millon that went to Raines and Company with the hundreds of thousands in kick backs to Dodds and Obama.... what no problems there?

[fabsroman]

I'll side with both of you on this one. I'll side with Classic in that I think the Board of Directors are out of their mind in giving such great severance packages to these execs. However, the reason such great severance packages are needed is because they draft up terrible employment contracts with these execs. Classic, you are probably what is considered an at-will employee. That means, an employer can fire you on any given day for any reason whatsoever, except a protected right (e.g., religion, sex, sexial orientation, nationality), and you can quit on any given day for absolutely no reason. Now, when there is an employment agreement in place, the employee usually needs a good reason to quit to get out of the agreement, and the employer needs a good reason to fire the employee (i.e., for cause). Some severance packages are used to get rid of execs that are performing badly. Personally, I think this has been a poor negotiating spot for most companies. They should make a decrease in stock price a cause for terminating employment, and then not have to use a severance package. I know of some employees that get pretty good severance packages when their employment is terminated before the end of an employment contract.

Rattus,

I think the Board of Directors are completely out of their minds to give execs the level of compensation that they do. No company exec should be earning that kind of money, especially when a company stock is tanking. I think the same way about athletes. They should all be given a one year contract based upon how well the team does as a whole. One clear example I have is an E-Trade CEO that made 80 million one year around 2001/2002 when E-Trade's stock had taken a beating. The Board ended up firing him, but they couldn't get any of that 80 million back. Wish I could get 80 million for completely screwing up. The good thing is that the stockholders elect the Board, so they are somewhat to blame for it. However, the small guy like me just goes along with what everybody else picks. I hardly have time to keep track of the political issues during this election. So, I have absolutely no time to research who is on the Board of companies I own stock in, and therefore I am an uninformed voter when it comes to that stuff.

[Tall Shadow]

But fabs, The things that you and Classicvette63 have listed, are at the heart of why Capitalism is such a great system.

If these Companies and/or Sports teams over due their "Top People's" salaries/compensations, then they will be hurting themselves. Causing their "Businesses" to be unprofitable, and leading to their own failure(s).

It is a "Checks & Balances" type of system. It is "Self correcting".

That is the true beauty of Capitalism.....If it is left to "Self Correct!"

Is a local or national company doing the "Golden parachute" thing for their new CEO,CFO, or HNC?

STOP BUYING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING!

When Your local Sports team raises it's ticket prices to 2-5 times what they were, because they were willing to pay "The New Guy" $100 million....Just don't buy the tickets, sports ware, or any of the products that make them money.
Trust me when I say, that this will be the best solution to this kind of BS.

This is America.
Not (yet) the Socialist states that Obama and his kind wish it to be. We are free to earn whatever we are able to, and I for one encourage EVERYONE to do Just that!

However!
Just because you can earn $100 million, does not mean that you SHOULD be!...Or that you are worth it.

You take the risk, make the play, provide the service, or product that Enough People are Willing to Pay For....Then Yes! you earned it, They payed you for it, it's yours!

We run it to trouble when we ask Government to "Step In" and "Fix It" RIGHT NOW!

If left to it's own, a capitalistic system will self regulate.....
That isn't speculation.....That is FACT!

We (Consumers) just have become "Spoiled" by our "I DEMAND THAT YOU GIVE IT TO ME NOW!" and "FOR FREE!" and "WITH NO CONSEQUENCES or REQUIREMENTS FROM ME!" society.

If you don't like the way someone does business, go to their competitor, and let them provide you with a "Better" product.

That is Capitalism. The old "Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door!" in a nutshell.

It isn't a perfect system, but it sure beats the HELL! out of Socialism/Communism! :D

Tall Shadow

[LoneWolf]

Tall Shadow has hit the nail on the end.
There is nothing wrong with the system, if it is left alone.
Sink or Swim.
You know, kind of like most of us middle classers do everyday. I haven't heard anybody coming ot bail me out. Nor do I expect or want them to.
Unfortunately, that isn't how most of our "give it to me know, you owe me, and thats not fair" nation sees things these days. :mad:

[fabsroman]

No, there is seriously something wrong with the system, and I will tell you what it is. Retirement accounts. How much money do these investment companies, etc. make just because most Americans with a 401(k), 403(b), or some other type of retirement account are forced to stick their money in stocks or bonds? How much money is blindly flowing to these people without the investors actually knowing what is going on? I know I have absolutely no idea what stocks my wife and I own in our retirement accounts, and that is $100K today. It was a decent amount more a month ago. Do you guys think I have the time to look at all these companies that my mutual funds invest in, or to look at the compensation packages that the Boards of these companies approve for these executives. Mind you, a lot of the people on the Boards of these companies are probably people that are getting something back from the executives. I wouldn't doubt it if there are attorneys/accountants/etc. sitting on these boards and the executives hire them to provide services to the company.

What we need is the ability for stockholders to bring derivative suits with more teeth in them. The members of the Board need to be responsible for these outrageous compensation plans, and most compensation plans for executives should be enough for them to live well off, with bonuses for increased profitability of the company that results in an increased stock price. Granted, tying their bonus compensation to the stock price tends to create some very creative accounting that leads to stuff like Enron, Fannie Mae, Mills Corp, and more, where they bend and break accounting rules to increase profit so they can get their bonuses.

There is plenty of white color crime and collusion, and that is the problem with the system. We need bigger jails for both the violent criminals, and the white color criminals.

Oh yeah, back to my original point. We need to make it mandatory where any employer sponsored retirement plan includes CD's in them, where an employee can at least put something away that will be completely stable. Yes, I have heard the "stock market, over any 30 year period has returned 8%", but today's market is a lot different than 30 years ago. The internet itself has a huge influence on the stock market.

My mother in-law is 58 and lost a good amount in her 403(b) because the plan did not offer anything very conservative like a CD or a full bond fund. At her current age, that is completely unacceptable.

[Tall Shadow]

Fabs,
I understand your (Our) frustration about the whole financial mess that is/has been going on.....I/we are all in the same boat....I'm 46, I have 2 kids, and I work in the automotive industry in metro Detroit....Trust me! I know times are not good right now!!

But the system really is self regulating....IF! you let it alone to do so.

We are (Mostly) in this whole mess, for precisely that same reason....The system was screwed around with too dang much...By the very people who now are bitching about it the loudest (DEMOCRATS in the house & Senate)

Loans were given to people, WHO HAD NO BUSINESS GETTING THEM....Because they were poor risks in the first place.

"BUT THAT IS UNFAIR TO THE POOR!!" was the battle cry....and legislation was passed that obligated the lenders to give these people loans.....and guess what happened?!?!?!?!?!

Add huge corruption & more payouts & loans to Our good friends (Democrats again!)

+ That, as Our financial market goes, so goes the world's.

And we end up right where we are today!

I understand that your mom's finances are in a shambles right now, All of ours are! I know mine is.
But this is why we can not let government get it's hands in to so much of our lives.
Their involvement was the catalyst that set this whole thing in motion in the first place!

To "Call Them Back" and let them "Take the wheel" of this crisis, is a bad idea at best, and just downright Dangerous, at worst!

As for your/My/Everyone else's 401ks, or other retirement plans..... Read, understand, and plan accordingly. If your company doesn't offer the plan(s) that fit/suit your needs....Move it to someone who does!

Afterall....It is Your/Our money!

Tall Shadow

[Tall Shadow]

You all might also want to see my latest post, and read the story that it points to.

My other post (http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47560)

Tall Shadow

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by fabsroman

There is plenty of white color crime and collusion, and that is the problem with the system. We need bigger jails for both the violent criminals, and the white color criminals.



Did you mean "white collar," or was that supposed to be a complex double entendre?

[fabsroman]

No, I meant white collar. It was late, I am sick, and I have a ton of work and a growing A/R, besides, isn't white a color? LOL

Tall Shadow,

I agree with you completely. They never should have given people tax breaks to save for retirement. That should have been something people did on their own. There are also a million other problems, and it looks like this $700 billion bailout isn't even being used as legislators thought it would be by the banks it is being given to. Supposedly, it was thought that the banks would be more likely to lend money once they received this money, but from what I have been reading, they have chosen to sit on the cash and de-lever their positions with this cash. So, it isn't pumping any additional capital into the market at all for those that are looking for loans. We should have let them all fail instead of letting the government try to save them.

As far as moving retirement funds out of an employer's account, that is kind of hard to do as long as you are employed by that employer. A lot of these retirement accounts do not allow them to be transfered or withdrawn from as long as you work for the employer. Plus, with the employer match of up to 5% of salary, it is kind of hard not to participate in them even if the investments are risky. What is tough is relying on those investments as the employee gets closer and closer to retirement. Who knows, maybe employers will fix this problem with the retirement plans that they offer.