Detroit vs US Senate

[Larryjk]

Senator Christopher Dodd (Conn) has called for the CEO of General Motors to step down. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
He took a "special" rate loan from Freddie that saved him about $75,000 and now thinks the CEO of a mega corporation is incompetent.
Seems the best way to steal money is by being elected as a representative (Barney Franks), or a Senator (Schumer or Dodd).
Then you can steal money by having it donated to you as a campaign contribution.

[RagingBullPa]

i actually laughed out loud even more so for the knowledgeable people who voted for a buffoon like Dodd of course our Senator Casey voted for the loan also Specter is too old to remember what he did 5 minutes ago, including changing his depends , him they should just replace along with our Gov Rendell

[RagingBullPa]

for the workers in away it is their livelyy hood but the unions greed for more , more , more, over the years also didn't help the situation either, right now my work place iis in contract negotiations , it doesn't look good , as a union worker myself i just hope the right negotiations are done and i still have a good job while retaining the benefits i already have, they are a lot more important than the monenetary issues

[Steverino]

I agree with you completely Larry,

The kicker is that their own constituents will undoubtedly vote all of these bozos back into office at the end of their terms- you watch. Then they'll blame the current Bush administration for the financial meltdown (that is if they're not alreadfy doing it).

My wife had some of her liberal family members over at our house for Thanksgiving and after a couple days of biting my lip playing cards and hearing the liberal crap spew forth, I couldn''t take it anymore. My wife bowed her head and made a hurried exit out of our dining room as I began my tirade.

It went something like this: "Lest no one leave my humble abode uninformed, I have sat at this very table with all of you the past couple of evenings listening to misinformation, distortion of the facts and just plain liberal bull***t!

The Democrats have been at the helm of Congress for the past two years. Not that I am particularly pleased with the Republican party at the moment, because I am not, but if I were a card carrying Democrat, I would be furious!

Christopher Dodd and Barney Frank held (hold) powerful senate chairs on banking and finance subcommittes. Where the hell where they during this mortgage lending mess and bail-out of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac?":rolleyes:

[fabsroman]

Steverino,

I couldn't agree with you more, but I don't have your problem with the in-laws. All of my in-laws are staunch conservatives.

[Larryjk]

Unfortunately, these theives will be voted in again, when their current terms are up. The way they do it is by giving their constiuents everything they want, even if it is screwing the country. That is how Kennedy has stayed in for 40 years. Those guys have strong stomaches because it doesn't bother them to look in the mirror while they shave. Hopefully, there is a day of reckoning when they are eventually judged!

[Steverino]

I was personally never a Chysler fan growing up (did like Mopar though) but always liked and respected Lee Iococca. Thought that this article was interesting as well as timely to this topic.

DETROIT – Lee Iacocca, the man who led Chrysler through a government bailout in the late 1970s, says the CEOs of Detroit's automakers should not be forced to quit as a condition of getting government loans.

Iacocca, Chrysler's retired chairman and chief executive, said in a statement Tuesday that now is not the time to make executive changes, as suggested by Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, D-Conn.

"Having been there, I do not agree with the sentiment now coming out of Congress that the management should be changed as a condition of granting loans to the Detroit automakers," Iacocca said. "You don't change coaches in the middle of a game, especially when things are so volatile."

He added that the auto industry has been hit by an unpredictable series of events beyond its control.

"The companies may not be perfect but the guys who are running them now are the only ones with the experience and the in-depth knowledge and understanding of how the car business really works," he said. "They're by far the best shot we have for success."

Dodd said over the weekend in a television interview that Wagoner "has to move on" as part of a government-run restructuring. President-elect Barack Obama, without naming names, said current auto industry management should be ousted if it doesn't understand the need to make changes. Dodd didn't name Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally or Chrysler LLC's Bob Nardelli.

Chrysler, General Motors and Ford are seeking up to $34 billion in loans to help them weather the worst auto sales climate in 26 years. Congress may vote this week on a plan to give them temporary relief while being held accountable for restructuring.

Iacocca persuaded Congress to issue $1.5 billion in loan guarantees for Chrysler in 1979.

The bill was passed four days before Christmas and signed into law by President Jimmy Carter in January 1980. Like the bill now under consideration in Congress, the 1979 legislation gave the government broad oversight of the company and an ownership stake. Chrysler avoided bankruptcy and went on to develop its highly successful fuel-efficient K-cars.

Chrysler eventually drew down $1.2 billion in loans and repaid them within three years, seven years early. Chrysler turned a profit in 1982 and the government made $311 million in the sale of stock warrants and another $25 million in loan guarantee fees.

[Larryjk]

I have always raised hell about the cost of cars, the unions that make them, etc. There is one thing I always try to remember about the auto-makers.
When we get involved in a war, these are the folks we turn to to get trucks, tanks, guns, you name it. Maybe we can get cars from Japan, Chine, Korea, Sweden. etc., but I am not sure some of those countries could be counted on to deliver the war materials we might need in a hurry. That sweet old Garand was made by International Harvester!

[RagingBullPa]

yup some were made by international harvester , some by remington ,some by westinghouse, smith and wesson , harrington and richardson , and of course springfield armory , our legion posts rifle drill squad uses m-1 in parades and military funerals and there was a slew of manufacturers that produced them during ww2, great american knowhow, we had i believe 21 m1's in our mini armory we were quite on demand when it came to parades and military funerals, love those weapons

[Ol` Joe]

Originally posted by Larryjk
I have always raised hell about the cost of cars, the unions that make them, etc. There is one thing I always try to remember about the auto-makers.
When we get involved in a war, these are the folks we turn to to get trucks, tanks, guns, you name it. Maybe we can get cars from Japan, Chine, Korea, Sweden. etc., but I am not sure some of those countries could be counted on to deliver the war materials we might need in a hurry. That sweet old Garand was made by International Harvester!

My mother in law assembled 50 cal machineguns at AC (Delphi now) and an uncle built planes in what was I think a Buick factory dureing WW2. Inland Guild (fisher body) built M1 carbines. Chrysler built tanks until 15 or so years ago.
The auto sector is THE manufacturing center of the country. There is no bank or service sector around that can tool up and build war machines if needed.

[Steverino]

"There is no bank or service sector around that can tool up and build war machines if needed."

Don't worry OJ, as long as the US doesn't go to war with China, we'll be okay as they can churn out whatever we need! :rolleyes:

[skeeter@ccia.com]

The steel needed to make these items in an auto plant if were needed like past years use to come from places like Pittsburgh...the 'steel city'....well now here we go again in the destruction of America from within. Not only did they close down the major steel mills here around this area, but to make sure they never fire them up again if need to make tanks, guns or what ever, they tore them to the ground...naked dirt there now..I drive past these miles and miles of fenced in dirt..so, if we need to turn over the auto plants again, where we going to make the steel needed?...our ship is already sunk.
I am a retired union worker also and believe me they needed someone to help with the working conditions back when...that is what they were all about in the beginning..all the way up to now..unions are great for keeping the jobs for people that loose them for say ...drugs..booze..just not showing up for work..you know the ones that don't want to work...but in this day and age, can we expect to take a pay cut when the top dogs are getting all these extra dollars?...I use to remind my boss now and then that he would not have a shop if it were not for his employees..but when times were lean, we employees helped out all we could to save our jobs...even a buck an hr would help these auto boys keep things rolling..

[Larryjk]

The Pres of the UAW was on the news tonight and was asked if it was necessary to have 42 days of vacation along with 17 paid holidays since the pay was between $42 and $71/hr? He said they were always being asked to sacrafice. Looking at those figures, I think there is serious room for sacrafice. Some sacrafice might beat the hell out of no pay at all.

[Jack]

'Those figures' being an interesting point.....
I've seen that 71$ an hour figure thrown around- and I wonder what all is included. Pay and benefits, obviously- but I suspect included also is pension costs for the retired workers.
And that's the big difference between the newer foreign plants in the US and the big 3. The big 3 (Ford, GM, Chrysler) have been around for a long time- long enough to have many retired workers on pensions. The newer foreign plants have NOT been around long enough to have significant retirement costs- assuming they pay pensions.
I got a feeling that if you tried to actually find an auto worker being paid 71$ an hour in pay and benefits you'd have a great deal of trouble finding one.

[fabsroman]

Isn't retirement a benefit?

I have read in several places that Ford's health care costs in 2005 were $6 billion. That is a good chunk of change. They also made the mistake of using defined benefit plans instead of defined contribution plans, but the defined benefit plan was all the rage 20 to 30 years ago, until investments didn't return as much as they had hoped and they came up with huge shortfalls that they needed to fund. I think this almost broke Remington. Now, almost every employer uses defined contribution plans like 401(k)'s, and hopefully the Big 3 are doing the same.

Ultimately, I think both management and the UAW need to cut out a lot of stuff to get the Big 3 back on track. They should approach this as I am cutting X, what are you willing to cut, and continue on until there is nothing left to cut.

[Ol` Joe]

Originally posted by Larryjk
The Pres of the UAW was on the news tonight and was asked if it was necessary to have 42 days of vacation along with 17 paid holidays since the pay was between $42 and $71/hr? He said they were always being asked to sacrafice. Looking at those figures, I think there is serious room for sacrafice. Some sacrafice might beat the hell out of no pay at all.

Actually the senior workers get 4 weeks (20 days) vacation and 5 sick days. The 17 working days include the week of July 4th which is mandantory time off and is deducted from the employees 20 days of vacation time.

The $71 dollars/hr is also a bit high, I think the last figure I saw was an "average" of around $40+. They include retirement costs, unemploment insurance, social security costs, (remember the companies pay 1/2 of your SS. For every dollar taken from your check they add one to the payment the government gets) on top of health and life insurances. The last contract eliminated the high wages of anyone not concidered a "core" worker to $14/hr and caps it at $18/hr max. New hires will not get traditional retirement (401K only), health insurance is now a HMO only, deductables for health insurance are taken from both workers pay and retirees, past and future, on top of deductions that have been expanded on some services (office calls, medicines, X-rays, ect) that have always existed. Full benefits for a couple contracts have been fed to the newer employees a piece at a time over 3-5 yrs.
The companies are and have been useing "temps" agreed to in the previous contract @$14/hr with no benefits, vacation or sick time. I personally know people who have worked 3+ yrs with out a day off for fear of loseing their job due to this. They are still temps and if managment has their way will be in the future. This is all in effect today, with more coming in 2011 at the contracts expiration. I doubt GM has much more the 50% of the work force earning the old avg of $26/hr (a cost of living bonus is added to this, but I think they are gone now too or have been froze)

Toyota, Honda, ect, do pay less overall. Toyota pays as much or more per/hr in the workers pay check on avg then GM but less in other costs. High visible wages help keep the unions at bay. They don`t have the retirees, our auto companies do to pay, their workers are younger which keeps health care costs down, and they don`t pay health care at home. Their governments take care of that. BTW you might notice too, the southern states have gave very large tax exemptions to all of the off shore manufactures that are not offered to the existing US companies too. Ford might concider building a plant at home and keeping Americans working if they didn`t have to pay the taxes our government wants on their new factories

The Unions and auto companies are not blameless. They have made errors. The workers have been well paid, and have a decent retirement if older. The news media though has looked at the domestic auto industry like they do at gun manufacures, and workers like gun owners. Stretch the truth or hint at faults when possible.
The Government too is iffy IMO. They haven`t been collecting taxes as long as Ford has built cars, and their 6 trillion in the hole and questioning the auto makers business plans? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...........

" The steel needed to make these items in an auto plant if were needed like past years use to come from places like Pittsburgh...the 'steel city'....well now here we go again in the destruction of America from within. Not only did they close down the major steel mills here around this area, but to make sure they never fire them up again if need to make tanks, guns or what ever, they tore them to the ground...naked dirt there now..I drive past these miles and miles of fenced in dirt..so, if we need to turn over the auto plants again, where we going to make the steel needed?...our ship is already sunk"

Skeeter, My dad in the early `60s complained the US governmant had gave Japan our old ships, tanks, ect after the war, and they were melting it down and selling it back to us. He was sure it was going to bite us then, and it did. The Jap goverment subsidized steel production for years, under cutting American steel. Russia did the same for a while. It seems we are are our worst enemy. We protect our shores from enemy armies but sell it to their people. If China ever cuts off sales to the states we`re SOL...

JMHO, if ya don`t agree, go ahead and flame away. It won`t change a thing in what`s passed..... or to come...:(

[fabsroman]

If China cuts off sales to the US, it just means we will probably have to wait for the goods to be built elsewhere, and we might have to pay a little more for them. Supply and demand is what it is about.

Now, China would be SOL if it stopped sending goods this way. China is already struggling right now because the US is in this recession and Americans aren't buying Chinese goods, or any other goods for that matter.

[Larryjk]

Ol' Joe, Sorry if it sounded like I was flaming. There is plenty of blame to go around. The figures I quoted were from the evening news as given by Katie Couric on ABC. I thought she would do a better job of presenting that issue fairly!

[skeet]

I really don't mind giving loan guarantees to the auto companies but not an outright payment from the gummit to them. And if we give loan guarantees then the auto companies ought to show a new business plan...and be made to stick with it. Bizness as usual just ain't gonna cut it..and everyone here knows that, I think. The loan guarantees from Freddie and fannie came back to haunt us because it remained bizness as unusual with them. NO oversight means that there will be no changes for the good. We are on the verge of going to a new currency in this country... to the Amero...or some such bull. We should be responsible for our own debt..not the debts of other countries......or businesses. And y'all are right about the steel industry...and now Obama wants to do the same with the coal industry...and the United Mine Workers supported the useless scumbag. Just like our illustrious union leaders supported the NAFTA plan. Did away with more than a million UNION jobs almost immediately...WTH is up with the unions. They always support the democraps that do terrible things to the American(US) worker.:rolleyes: I don't understand that..other than the fact that unions are in some sense socialistic in their policies