"Locked and Cocked" is not ok with Mike!

[Adam Helmer]

My neighbor inheirited a mint Ithaca M1911A1 .45 Auto that is one of the 80,000 made in WWII. Mike has a CCW permit and wanted to carry his grandad's .45. Bless him.

We went to the backyard bench and ran some Ball and 200 grain SWC cast handloads through his .45. Afterwards, I showed him how to field strip and properly clean his prize pistol. We discussed holsters and carry methods. Mike has a perceived need to be armed in some places he goes. I discussed "Locked and Cocked" and sweeping off the safety during the draw and he got concerned. I told him John Browning made the 1911/1911A1 pistol SAFE for the knowledgeable user.

Mike prefers to carry his .45 Chamber Empty and will RACK the slide to get serious if need be. I pointed out that racking the slide will direct ALL the Bad Guys' attention to HIM when he makes that manuever. He just cannot carry a M1911A1 Locked and Cocked. I told him I could, but he needs to consider a revolver. I may get to trade a S&W M10 2-inch for a mint Ithaca.

Adam

[Steverino]

I have also met shooters through the years Adam that were uncomfortable carrying locked & cocked and then have had occassion to wonder why they bother carrying. Don't get me wrong, something is better than nothing. I personally have never (and hope that I am never) in a situation where the use of immediate deadly force is necessary, however, from many accounts from people far more knowledgable than I in such matters, they preach that when things typically go bad, they do so very quickly.

I also think that you are spot on with your recommendations of a revolver for someone with locked/cocked issues. I personally love my Springy .45 but am much more accurate with my revolvers. My wheels are my "go-to" guns in a pinch because of this!

[Jack]

Let's see... revolver, loaded: no safety.
1911 loaded, cocked and locked: 2 safeties.
:confused:
To each his own, I guess.

[BILLY D.]

I slept with one under what ever was being used as a pillow in 'nam.

I also didn't pull a Plexiglass with it either. Mine was always kept as clean as possible under the conditions and always carried cocked and locked.

Does your friend also wait to put in a magazine and carry it separately?

He ain't long for this world carrying that way.

Best wishes, Bill

[Mr. 16 gauge]

For those unfamiliar with "cocked and locked" carry, it can be a bit intimidating....at first. I know it was for me. It just takes some practice & getting used to. I have a friend who carries and he is afraid of carrying a firearm cocked and locked. I asked him "and how many accidental discharges have you heard of with a 1911 carried cocked and locked as opposed to other firearms?" Of course, the answer is 'none'. "Do you carry your deer rifle with the chamber empty, and rack it when you see a buck, or do you carry it with a round in the chamber and the safety on?" Of course, the answer is "round in chamber, safety on". "Then what is the difference between carrying the 1911 with a round chambered and the safety on, and a deer rifle with a round in the chamber and the safety on?"

Silence..............................;)

[Adam Helmer]

Thanks for the great responses guys.


Steverino and Jack,

I agree that a revolver is much easier for new handgunners to use effectively. Anyone who ever "shot" a water pistol or cap gun as a kid can use a DA revolver. It has to do with "transverance" of motor skills, or some such.

Billy D.,

You crack me up-LOL.

Mr. 16 gauge,

I think I have settled Mike's "locked and cocked" issues by showing him a Bucheimer thumb-break .45 auto holster that positions the thumb break strap over the rear of the frame and blocks a cocked hammer fall when the strap is snapped. It IS NOT a safety by any means, but it does reassure folks with locked and cocked issues-kinda like a pacifier, don't you know?

Merry Christmas, guys.

Adam

[gold40]

If Mike's gun is truly a mint WWII Ithaca M1911-A1 he probably should NOT be carrying it - it is too valuable. It may be worth $2k+. I'd suggest he not fire it again.

If that is his only handgun, perhaps he should buy something much less valuable to carry -- and keep the Ithaca as a family heirloom.

JERRY

[Adam Helmer]

gold40,

I agree, a mint Ithaca should be carefully cleaned and put into the vault with other valuables. I am lobbying hard to have him get a double action revolver for CCW.

Adam

[Nulle]

My Glock is always ready or I would just leave it at home.

[8X56MS]

hope that delay in a time of crisis won't cost Mike his life..........

[Swift]

I wasn't aware that there was any other way to carry one other than "locked, cocked , ready to rock" :D

[Adam Helmer]

Swift,

Apparently you were never an MP, or AP, in the U.S. Military. I was and our mandated mode of carry was a 5-round magazine inserted and the chamber EMPTY on the M1911A1. I did not agree with that mode of carry, but that was the SOP.

Many civillians opt for the Chanber-Empty, Mag inserted mode of carry. When the NEED arises, it takes a very LOUD function to cycle the .45 and get "One Up The Spout", Meanwhile, every Bad Guy zeroes in on the racking sound and unloads!

The M1911/1911A1 is for the savvy folk who know what they are about. The rest of the folks needs to find a DA revolver because all semi-auto pistols function best with a round chambered in Gravest Extreme.

Adam

[Swift]

Yer right I was never an MP or AP but did 6 yrs service and whenever there was a security alert ( not known to us, which the gunners usually informed us of ) I went locked and cocked.

Also stuffed the Mossberg full of 00 buck standard SOP or not I was not gonna be a casket if I had any say in the matter.


Just never told my Gunny..;)

[Adam Helmer]

Swift,

We are both of a like mind, LOL! Been there and done that, alright. I had my chamber-loaded .45 many times when I decided it was the BEST course of action for my survival. I cleared the chamber BEFORE the end of guard post and nobody knew the better, eh, wot?

Adam

[Rapier]

Adam,
I was an armoror in the 101st, I was also a coach and member of the pistol and rifle teams. I instructed folks who were issued 45s as TO&E on its use, after the official briefing was done. I also fixed the clattery guns so they would shoot. None of my guys ever went into combat with an empty chamber. The 1911 was designed and adopted to replace the revolver and the very basis of the design is cocked and locked with one up the snout. There is nothing unsafe about a locked and cocked 1911.
Best,
Ed

[buckhunter]

Combat is one thing. Always cock & locked. For me when I carried the 45 is was on half cock, chamber full. I praticed enough to thumb it back when needed. In my head it was safer, in reality no it wasn't.

When in the service and on watch, it was a empty chamber and mag inserted,

[Skinny Shooter]

Swift has the right idea. :D

I also carry my 1911 cocked and locked.
At first it seemed intimidating but it was designed that way.
I will probably never be a Vic and am defintely not an expert.
If violence is suddenly thrust upon me, there may not be time to do anything but seek cover as the safety is thumbed off as I draw.
Racking the slide to chamber a round while fending off an assailant in most situations would be impossible and may only get you hurt or worse.

I've carried a glock and a centurion. Didn't keep them for long and went back to a 1911 because its the most comfortable fitting handgun I've shot. Thanks Uncle John! :cool:
My Springy XD45 points almost as naturally as a 1911 and do not hesitate to carry it.

Adam, has Mike gotten himself a revolver or another 1911?

[Dutchman01]

I just don't understand the problems so many seem to have with cocked and locked. I just don't get it. :confused:

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I just don't understand the problems so many seem to have with cocked and locked.

Dutchman;
I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with people (experts) telling us NEVER to trust a mechanical safety, which is basically what you are doing when carrying cocked and locked.

[Gil Martin]

You know the first round is going to feed properly because it is already in the tube.

Carrying with an empty chamber is not only noisy and takes time to chamber a round, but also requires two hands to get it done. All the best...
Gil

[Dutchman01]

Dutchman;
I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with people (experts) telling us NEVER to trust a mechanical safety, which is basically what you are doing when carrying cocked and locked.

I'll buy that. However, I have to wonder how these same people feel about glocks.

[popplecop]

I agree with cocked and locked as the way to car. In the fifties in Korea, mine as carried on have cocked with a round in the chamber of course, was not my primary weapon. I like the 1911 frame and try to keep all my semi autos on this frame. I bought a Para Carry Nine of CCW, it is LDA 3" barrel. Other than being double action looks like any 1911 same controls, and will say the light double action is a joy to shoot.

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01,

Welcome to the Forum.

I have carried the 1911 and Glock 19 on duty for many years before I retired. Folks who balk at "Locked and Cocked" merely do not understand John Browning's 1911. Very few handgun owners shoot enough rounds to really KNOW their handguns. We fired 750 rounds for Transition Training to go from revolvers to the Glock 17/19.

The instructions from HQ mandated we pack ALL revolvers for Turn-in to be unloaded, securely packed "With revolver safety catches engaged." I called Washington DC and asked the author of those instructions to tell me where the "revolver safety catch" was located. After a bit of time on "Hold" the female agent admitted she "only took her revolver out of her filing cabinent for semi-annual qualification" and was sure there was a "Safety" on her revolver when she issued the instructions, but could not locate one on her M10 S&W at present. Big Duh there!

Most agents were not competent with firearms as I determined in 10 years of being the firearms instructor for all of the 100 agents in New England. I suspect civillians, who have to buy their ammo, are even less firearms competent. Thus, the M1911 is a huge mystery to most handgunners.

Adam

[Dutchman01]

Dutchman01,

Welcome to the Forum.

I have carried the 1911 and Glock 19 on duty for many years before I retired. Folks who balk at "Locked and Cocked" merely do not understand John Browning's 1911. Very few handgun owners shoot enough rounds to really KNOW their handguns. We fired 750 rounds for Transition Training to go from revolvers to the Glock 17/19.

The instructions from HQ mandated we pack ALL revolvers for Turn-in to be unloaded, securely packed "With revolver safety catches engaged." I called Washington DC and asked the author of those instructions to tell me where the "revolver safety catch" was located. After a bit of time on "Hold" the female agent admitted she "only took her revolver out of her filing cabinent for semi-annual qualification" and was sure there was a "Safety" on her revolver when she issued the instructions, but could not locate one on her M10 S&W at present. Big Duh there!

Most agents were not competent with firearms as I determined in 10 years of being the firearms instructor for all of the 100 agents in New England. I suspect civillians, who have to buy their ammo, are even less firearms competent. Thus, the M1911 is a huge mystery to most handgunners.

Adam

That's so funny. On the other hand the idea most agents were not competent with firearms I find completely mystifying. I mean, we're not talking rocket science here. So, tell me, does this same agency feel completely ok with the glocks? Are there problems with the glocks? I've been hearing police are shooting themselves with them doing things like....reholstering them. Any truth to these rumours?

[8X56MS]

I stopped trying to convince folks how to carry properly years ago. It is their life, not mine.

[popplecop]

Never heard of anyone shooting themselves while holstering a GLOCK, probably the most common carried pistol by LE in my area. !911 is still my favorite combat pistol, and if not using my Para Ord, my 1911s are cocked and locked, lot of folks don't relize that there is a grip safety that has to pressed before it will fire too. I agree with 8X56MS.

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam

[Dutchman01]

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam


This is what I've been hearing for quite some time. I'm just wondering just how dangerous is cocked and locked compared with glocks. It may be something no one can answer satisfactorily.



source (http://www.browardcrime.com/gun_maker_glock_frequently_sued_.htm)



Gun maker Glock frequently sued over safety;
Model of deputy’s sidearm that killed driver in accidental shooting has detractors and defenders

By Marc Dadigan staff writer

November 9, 2003


INDIAN RIVER COUNTY -- The manufacturer of the handgun a St. Lucie County sheriff's deputy used in an accidental fatal shooting of a 35-year-old man Oct. 10 is one of the gun companies most commonly sued for product liability, according to a Washington, D.C. watchdog group.

The .40-caliber, semiautomatic Glock 22, manufactured by Georgia-based Glock Inc., has been named in at least 50 lawsuits in the past eight years, said Josh Horwitz, acting director of the non-profit Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence.

"There lawsuits are for a variety of defects. We think it's a dangerous design, but it's a gun that's become ubiquitous in law enforcement," Horwitz said.

A 1999 Washington Post article reported Glocks were being used by half of all law-enforcement agencies in the United States. Officials extol the superiority of the weapon because of its power, light weight and accuracy. However, critics claim the Glock handguns have a hair trigger that leads to accidental discharges and lament its lack of external safeties.

The Indian River County sheriff's deputies traded in their revolvers for .45-caliber Glock 21's more than a year ago, and Sheriff Roy Raymond has continued to trumpet their praises.

"If you fire a Glock, every shot has the same trigger [pressure] from the first shot to the last shot," he said. "I've bought one personally, and I don't see any downside to the Glocks."

Earlier this month, St. Lucie County Deputy Ronald Stickney accidentally shot and killed Nathan Tompkins with his .40-caliber Glock 22 as he was trying to remove Tompkins from his vehicle. Stickney had pursued Tompkins on U.S. 1 for a few minutes before Tompkins pulled over in Indian River County.

St. Lucie County sheriff's officials aren't commenting on the case until they complete an administrative review.

Safety features

Holden Kriss, range manager for the Indian River County Shooting Range in Sebastian, said the lack of the external safety for the Glocks is offset by three internal safeties. A safety attached to the trigger of the Glock makes it impossible to be accidentally fired if dropped.

"It's a very safe gun, a very high-quality gun," he said. "I haven't encountered any problems with it in more than 20 years of running ranges." .......

[Dutchman01]

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam

In a related/unrelated vein when the classes come to requalify for chp I always quit shooting and go and stand behind them until they're done. I've seen some scary stuff out there. :eek:

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01,

We always budgeted 10% of needed qualification ammo for individual practice between qualification cycles. Only 4 or 5 agents out of 100 ever asked for a few boxes of ammo to get ready for the semi-annual qualification. Bottom Line: Darn few of our agents were really competent with their issue arms. It was even worse with the shotguns and subguns. I usually shot off the practice ammo between cycles in my Glock 19 and MP-5.

Adam

[jl1966]

Adam,
I think the solution is for your buddy to get another type of weapon, be it a revolver or semi auto of a different type. I have been carrying for some years, and investigated the 1911 platform, owned a few. It was not for me. I carry a Glock 19, no more or less safe than a 1911. Any gun is unsafe if the correct level of training is not attained, and if that level is not also maintained through practice. I attend a few training courses a year, both rifle and handgun, as well as shooting competitively at least once or twice each month. I see all kinds of errors, no matter what type of gun is used. Being military or law enforcement is no gaurantee of competency. A lot of military are given only a basic understanding of the manual of arms pertaining to the weapon they are issued. Cops often tend to shoot only when they need to qualify, which mystifies me, as I would think they would train more simply because of the nature of their job. According to Massad Ayoob the 1911 was designed for military use, in a combat situation. The scenario is: a soldier in a combat situation, an attack is eminent, the weapon is made ready, safety applied, hostile forces present themselves, the safety is removed and everyone not wearing the same uniform as the user is a target. Although the gun is pressed into service for many other uses in military service, this is its primary purpose. It was not designed with the idea of holding an attacker at gunpoint while calling for help, being carried day in day out in populated non hostile situations and so forth. This is not said to down those who carry the 1911, that is your choice, and it is a fine weapon, just not one to be considered by the inexperienced, or poorly trained.

[Rapier]

JL,
This is not intended or directed just to you, but to anyone on a board or this board. If a person wants to comment on history or design they must, I repeat, must, know that history or design.

In the case of the 1911, it was not designed or intended or built to do anything but replace a weak energy, double action, revolver, curently in military service. The cocked and locked carry was specificly created to replace the DA revolver's capability of pull trigger and fire with a loaded cylinder. Nothing else.

The "we can't do that" situation came later from military officers within units that thought the cocked and locked carry was not safe, due to their inexperance with the gun and the design of the gun, in the first place. They then, and many today, simply can not get it through their head that a 1911 has 3 safety features that must be acted upon before it can be fired from the condition 1, locked and cocked position. 1)The thumb safety must be put on the fire position. 2) The grip safety must be depressed. 3) The trigger must be pulled and held. Number 2 and 3 must both be done at the same time. You can not fire a 1911 by tapping the trigger with a pencil, even with the grip safety held down. Nor can you pull and hold the trigger without the grip safety depressed.

I think you have misunderstood what MA has said or intended. Otherwise MA would have forgotten that the military has several layers of police and that regular GIs are not and never have been issued handguns, only those with a handgun TO&E (Army term) are issued handguns. As an example, I was an armoror in the 101st Abn. I had 300 M-16s and 24 1911s. The 1911 were issued to officers, grenadiers, machinegunners, and very few NCOs.
Best,
Ed

[popplecop]

Agree with Rapier, except for last paragraph. 1911A1s were standard issue for some specialized units in Korea, from PFC on up, didn't have any Pvts in our unit and only a few PFCs.

[jl1966]

Rapier,
You make some valid points. As I do not know the story of how the military came to mandate their style of carry for the 1911, I will defer to your wisdom on that. As to the troops issued the gun through the years, there are many documented cases of combat troops getting and using arms they were not officially issued. I have a coworker from Boston who was in the Navy, he doesn't know one end of a gun from the other, but he knows he was issued a .45 pistol. So my point was, maybe a 1911 is not the best weapon for daily carry for an inexperienced individual. 1911s are more prone to being malfunctioned by the user, due to the safety aspects you mention. Thumb safties get knocked back on, a proper firing grip is not obtained activating the grip safety, slide stops get activated. Not to mention the fact that the more highly tuned they get, the more ammo finicky they are. In just about any match or shooting school I have attended the bulk of the down time is due to someone, usually an inexperienced shooter, trying to get his 1911 sorted out. My opinion, and everyone has one;), is that a glock, sig, or some such system is preferable for everyday carry. You cant beat those 1911s for target work though, and they sure are pretty.

[Dutchman01]

Rapier,
You make some valid points. As I do not know the story of how the military came to mandate their style of carry for the 1911, I will defer to your wisdom on that. As to the troops issued the gun through the years, there are many documented cases of combat troops getting and using arms they were not officially issued. I have a coworker from Boston who was in the Navy, he doesn't know one end of a gun from the other, but he knows he was issued a .45 pistol. So my point was, maybe a 1911 is not the best weapon for daily carry for an inexperienced individual. 1911s are more prone to being malfunctioned by the user, due to the safety aspects you mention. Thumb safties get knocked back on, a proper firing grip is not obtained activating the grip safety, slide stops get activated. Not to mention the fact that the more highly tuned they get, the more ammo finicky they are. In just about any match or shooting school I have attended the bulk of the down time is due to someone, usually an inexperienced shooter, trying to get his 1911 sorted out. My opinion, and everyone has one;), is that a glock, sig, or some such system is preferable for everyday carry. You cant beat those 1911s for target work though, and they sure are pretty.

I carry a browning hipower, same cocked and locked system as the 1911 except the grip safety and I just hafta' say if you can't handle a manual safety you surely don't need to be carrying glock! I mean, honestly. Glocks seem really dangerous to me if only because they don't have a manual safety. I might make an exception for that NY trigger but that can't be good for actually hitting something.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I think we have all heard or seen about this clip....so much for the 'safety' of the glock. I think that the bottom line is this: it is the nut behind the trigger that is responsible for safety.
Choose your gun based on your needs, and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE..................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PYHR72u51Q

...and then there is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0CTbO7L44

[Rapier]

For some reason several of you just did not understand my statement, so I will repeat it, "only those with a handgun TO&E (Army term) are issued handguns." TO&E for those not framiliar with the term is the military regulations that set forth the equipment every troop of every job class will be issued, from fork to weapon.

It does not make any difference if you are Army, Navy or Marines. If your job, at any time, calls for a handgun to be issued to you, you are issued a handgun, period, no other time, and that is by regulation. So if a unit has handuns it is by regulation, if a navy troop has a handgun issued it is by regulation. You can change jobs on a temp basis and a rifleman will have a handgun issued for that job, but the temp job class calls for a handgun. Troops in the military do not just wonder around with issued handguns just because they want one. That is just more Hollywood BS.

As an armorer, I had to know the regulations as every one wanted to carry a handgun while just walking around or on manuvers. Then everone wanted a rifle, no one wanted a handgun as a principal weapon, when the ballon went up.

What happens in combat, is a whole different matter, folks tend to pick up all manner of field junk and carry it. Example, in Europe in WWII very few GIs did not carry a small German or Italian pistol of some description in 32, 380 or 25. You see them everywhere in the US as returned souviners.

90% of all failures with a clip fed handgun are the result of clip problems, not a problem with the gun itself.
Best,
Ed

[Dutchman01]

I think we have all heard or seen about this clip....so much for the 'safety' of the glock. I think that the bottom line is this: it is the nut behind the trigger that is responsible for safety.
Choose your gun based on your needs, and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE..................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PYHR72u51Q

...and then there is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0CTbO7L44


Oh man, those videos are completely scary. So, is the problem the officers or the glock?