45-70 question

[Critch]

I don't own a 45-70, but what is the hottest load that a person could safely shoot out of a modern rifle, such as a Ruger NO 1?

I've heard so many stories about this cartridge, and frankly, even though it's a heavy bullet, it's got to be losing a lot of energy downrange.

[jmarriott]

Check out the loads from buffalo bore.

[Mike Moss]

While I honor the 45-70 has a USA military cartridge I aways viewed it as high kick and low hit.

For normal hunting it would be a disadvantage for most of us. Someone could find a special use where it would work ok.

Besides an old trap door thats gone I had chances to pick up 45-70's and I am glad that I did not bother with the round. To each his own.

[PJgunner]

It depends on when that ruger #1 was made. Mine is from the 1970's and has a nice long throat and I can seat a 500 gr. bullet out far enough to get past 1800 FPS with a cast lead bullet. A serious load that hits hard at both ends. I shoot only my home cast bullets in the 45-70.
Check out a copy of Ken Waters Pet Loads. He shows some stiff loads for use in stronger guns. The only place where I disagre with him is in using those loads in a New model 1895 Marlin. One theykick like hell and two, the lever will snap open at the shot. Almost an automatic ejection systen and I wasn't even close to his loads yet.
Paul B.

[Rapier]

Critch,
Pay attention to Paul and the #1 issues, he is a #1 kinda guy. I am exactly like Paul when it comes to the Marlin, I own two, it just aint that strong and popping a lever is getting danger close for no legitimate reason.

I have a few #1s but none in the big bore range. On the other hand, I do own two Siamese Mauser based 45-70 guns. They are in my way of thinking, superior to just about every other 45-70 chambered configuration when it comes to pressure. The Siamese is a late 98 Mauser built by Arisaka for the Siamese government, chambered for a rimmed cartridge. I also own some real shoulder beaters, like a 458 Lott and a 20-inch carbine in 338 WM.

Probably the best thing to talk about in the 45-70 in the Mauser configuration is the fact that you can not get enough powder in it to flatten the primer until you go to a pistol powder like H-4227. Yeh, well, after several hundred test rounds, I got tired of firing a round and it dropping out of the chamber with a round primer so I loaded up a 525gr RCBS cast until I got a flat primer so I satisfied myself that it could be done.

Mauser Only:

With a 300gr Rem HP you can get 2,600 to 2,700 using R-7 at about 1 inch at 100
With a 300 Rem HP you can get 2,500 fps using 2015BR at .75 inch at 100

Here in the SE I have not seen a need for the bigger bullets in the 45-70. A 300 at 2,600 to 2,700 fps is about all a 150-pound whitetail needs for a clean kill. :D

The Mauser is my illusion gun... causes a deer to just disappear.
Best,
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

More to the point there is really no reason to go that high in a 45-70. Despite the high kick low hit rep of the 45-70 it has been used to take many elk, buffalo, and other large game safely and cleanly. IMHO the 45-70 with a 405grain lead and a a case full of black powder is all you will ever need to take game on the American continent. That is unless you want to sit in nebraska and shoot them in alaska. I have a H&R handrifle in 45-70 and it is VERY strong. If anything the Ruger#1 is stronger. Ramping up a BP cartridge that was already a very effective large meat killer is pointless. If you need more than what it already gives than maybe you should be looking at a 50 BMG, or you should stop hunting armored personnel carriers.

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

Aw now GOB, there you go with that 6 letter word that goes with that four letter word, reason and need. Buying, shooting or reloading for guns requires no reason or need. :D

Besides, there was a good reason, the 45-70 testing and the 458 Lott shooting required a new piece of equipment, a lead sled. :D:D
Best,
Ed

[popplecop]

I've been shooting a No. 45-70 for 21 years. I use 350 gr. Hornady and 3031 powder. Ihave taken a number of whitetails with it all one shot kills and don't have to trail them very far. It is scoped with an old Redfield 1.5-5 scope, very accurate rifle. I also have 3 other 45-70s. My so called brush gun is a Bikaal 45-70 SxS, easy to carry and lighter than my No. 1.

[GoodOlBoy]

lol now Rapier you surely have a point there. testing, thumping, and hotroding rounds CAN be fun, just sometimes unnecessary. Reminds me of the old boy who ramped a 32 S&W up to compete with a factory 357. My question then and now is why not just buy a 357?

popplecop a 350grain hornady bullet would deffinantly be a deer killin dude from a 45-70. I imagine it would teach feral hogs a few manners as well, though I still prefere solids for them.

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

Critch, The Ruger No. 1 is probably the strongest action you can find. I know a lot of folks will be upset, but I would rather have a Ruger No. 1 than any bolt action for strength. If you can take a Ruger No. 1 and make it into a .458 Lott or any of the other large African cartridges, there isn't much to worry about. However, I am sure any enterprizing reloader can exceed the limits of even the Ruger No. 1.

[Rapier]

Larry,
Most will tell you that it is just easier to bugger up the process of a falling block than a bolt gun. I have built quite a few of both and the bolt will go past the falling block when it comes to hanging up after a stout load. But frankly, I am past either one becoming a problem. A sticky drop or sticky bolt handle is not in my cards.....:D Oh, probably the nastiest falling block ever built was the 8mm Panzerbüchse built by the Germans. The round was based on a 20mm case necked down to 8mm. A bad, bad boy indeed.

Hey GOB, most of us nuts do stuff cause we can or it's there or a combination of the two.

I sure was looking for the penetration test data I found on the neta couple of years back. But alas, the page is gone. I found the listing but nada when you click on it. The old 45-70 was first or second as I recall. The hard cast 400 or 500 is just so tough and does not do anything but plow.
Best,
Ed

[skeet]

I really don't see where the 45-70 is so bad. I keep one in the truck for hunting in the black timber for elk and it will also work ok on ol grizz. I do use the 405 gr bullet in about the middle of the road loads for my ol Marlin 1895. Shoots good and not that much recoil. I must say that the 300 and 350 gr bullets do have a bit less recoil.:)

[Larryjk]

Rapier, I am only referencing one falling block action on this thread, the Ruger No. 1. I have several others, but they come nowhere near the strength of a No. 1. The Ruger No. 1 is "No. 1" when it comes to strength because of the wall thickness and the thickness of the steel back of the falliing block. That is what puts it ahead of the Winchester High Wall and the Sharps. The sides on those are just about the same but they don't have quite the support back of the block that the No. 1 has. Only rifles that the block slides almost straight down have the strength for the really high pressure loads.
Martinis, Ballards, Rolling Blocks etc don't have that. I have seen some very strong bolt actions and the "prettyest" ones are not the strongest. The old Arisaka is very strong as is the Enfield 17 and 14. The Mausers, Springfields come after them. If you are going to shoot overloads on a regular basis, shoot the Remington 700. I have seen them survive some terrible loads. My humble opinion based on people that worked in armories during WWII and subsequent trials.

[oger]

My load book says. 500 gr RN. 2.720 OL. 53.0 gr H335 CCI 250 in an 1885 Browning as shooting well but the recoil was so bad I quit using the load.
In the very heavy Siamese Mauser. Same bullet, same OL. 55 gr H4895 CCI 250. consistent 1900+ FPS. 3 shots under an inch at 100 yards but even in that club the recoil wasn't fun.

[Rapier]

Oger,
The 500 gr bullets in the 45-70 are in my opinion, like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, it feels good when you stop. I bought a Lead Sled specifically to take care of the 45-70 in my two Siamese Mausers and the 458 Lott in the MRC while testing loads. But I did learn a lesson in the process, actually relearned, anything over 400 grains and over 1,700 fps is not pleasant in any of my guns. The sled makes it OK but the non sled shooting tends to leave my fingers tingling, from the irritation to pinched nerves between 3-4 at shoulder / spine juncture.

I have the 525 gr RCBS mould and pushing that lovely hard cast over 1,700 results in a memorable event for all of my guns. The 525’s penetration is about one brick house, but it kills at both ends in the process. So that is an item “I have” and I pretty much shoot 300gr bullets normally, as our critters in the SE do not require triple body penetration. :D Even a big hog is no match for a 45-70's little 300gr and bang flop is the order of the day.
Ed

[skeet]

Dem heavy boolits do hurt a bit. I traded my 1895 off for a Cowboy model..well actually bought the CB and sold my Micro groove because the CB shoots lead boolits so much better. Been trying to get a moose license so I can go up in the black timber and shoot one with the ol banger and 400 grain lead boolits. All the moose I see are under a 100 yds. and it would be kinda neat to do a moose with that caliber. Even the 300 grainers are not fun to shoot off'n the bench..shooting at game is a I didn't feel the gun go off thing..kinda sorta. Shot a yote the other morning with it.. He was close..about 35 yds and not such a large one..but there is a 30 dollar bounty on 'em right now in our area. Cattlemens assoc puts it on evey year to thin the yotes down in calving season..which is now thru February. Seems like a cold time O' de year to be calving. but there are good reasons for it

[GoodOlBoy]

my point is still that you can't name a north American game animal that you cannot kill cleanly with a 45-70-405 cast lead at around factory load levels. Sure you can supe it up, but why? If you are going dangerous game hunting in Africa my suggestion is another caliber in a nice double rifle. If you are hunting from bunny rabbit to moose in the US and Canada the 45-70 will do the job just fine. AND with old style black powder loads you can eat right up to the hole, you don't loose meat from shock damage all over the place. I have a couple of boxes of 305 grain remmy hollowpoints I picked up (mostly cause I needed brass) and they will take anything in Texas just fine, and are overkill for more than a few critters.

GoodOlBoy

[oger]

The 1885 and the Siamese are both toys. Neither is really usefull for anything but punching paper. I definately agree on the 405 cast they are much easier to live with, in fact the most common 45-70 load I shoot is a 300gr cast out of an old 14 Contender.

[skeet]

Oh heck GOB..they ain't nothn in Texas big enough to put the scares into a 243!! LOL But I do gotta say.. I ain't shootin a grizz at handshakin range with the ol blackpowder loads. Yep..it'll kill 'em but how bout right now!!...And there are much better rounds to use for everything on a day to day basis. We use the 45-70 because of nostalgia and we think it's neat..not just you..me too. Many use it just cause it's the way the old timers did it. It really doesn't make it better..just neat. That's why I want to shoot a moose with it

[oger]

They do work. A friend was given a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70. He does no reloading so I loaded him some cast 350gr at maybe 1200 FPS at the most so he could get used to the rifle and get the sighting close. Next time I saw him he said the loads worked great, only one shot was needed. I asked what did you kill with the rifle? He helps someone with a small herd of buffalo. Every year they cull one to use as meat for their families. My comment was those were practice loads not hunting loads. The range was very close but maybe you really don't need that much of a load to kill just about anything you will find around here.

[Rapier]

You guys have lead a sheltered life. I know about a half dozen folks around here who hunt with a sporterized Siamese. And guys, a 300 JHP at 2,800 fps is no toy and is my load of preference, using R-7 for putting the whoa to a big hog. By the way the action by itself is now at $450 or above, before modification.
Ed

[skeet]

Remember when the Siamese were under 100 bucks for the whole rifle??..Boy they were UGLY. An awful lot of Buffalo are grown and used for meat here. Almost all are shot..most by guys with 45-70s.. for nostalgic reasons. I have a friend who used my 1895 with factory jacketed to kill his buff. And it ate good. He used a Highwall in 45-100 this year(I think). It's kinda hard to corral an animal that big..if he don't want to go where ya want him.. Actually it is impossible