Congress does it again???

[bulletpusher]

Well its now being reported on the radio that Congress has now passed a bill (called the Mustang act) that allicates $700,000.00 per year for horse condums and horse abortations!!!!!!

What is this world coming to. Why are they wanting to spend that much money to prevent horses from making little horsess

This makes about as much since as sending all of the horses to sex education classes to explain about population control among the horses.

Besides who's supporse to put the condums on the damn horses anyway.

Now if its some of these asses in congress, would attempt to do the job, I might pay a dollar to see one of them try that, and watch the horse stomp a puddle in there middle.

God help us, if they caint keep coming up with more stupid ways to spend out money.

What do you guys and ladies think about this.

[PJgunner]

Back around 1973, an old ecoreak called Wild Horse Annie got a jillion hysterical kids and bunnyhuggers to get the Congress to ram through the Wild Horsre and Burro act, giving them federal protection. :mad: Since then, these NON-NATIVE broken down useless horses have been under federal control. I used to have a neat hidey hole where deer were plentiful until a hear of those damn nags moved in. :mad: My hunting partner and I had scouted the area about two weeks before the season and there were lots of deer and deer sign. We wee there before sunrise on opening day and not a der in sight. We did not see a one, but we saw a damn big herd of mustangs. The horse literally fouled the water hole with urine and their droppings and no self respecting deer would want to have anything to do with trying to drink that mess.
We were sorely tempted to shoot every damn one of those nags and Wild Horse Annie as well. Our huntng group cheer the day we heard she'd gone to her horse pasture in the sky.
Those horses and wild burros are not native animal to North America. They were brought here by the Spanish explorers and when they left, they turned the horses loose to fend for themselves. Same deal with the burros, abandoned by prospecters who went bust trying to find gold. At one tome prior to 1973, government hunters were paid to shoot them to keep them in check. Both the horses and burros have done extensive ecological damage out here in the west and frankly. IMHO,they should be shot off.
When I lived in Nevada, there was a water hole where I used to call in coyotes for their hides. One day, a mustang showed up that was definitely badly hurt, probably hit by a car as it looked like a broken shoulder. I lived in a small touwn where everybody knew everybody so I got hold of the local BLM agent and told him about the horse. We went out and although this animal was in serious pain, neither of us could shoot it due to federal law.:mad: One day, when I went to try for a few yotes, trhe hose was there, dead. Looks like the coyotes took it down during the night. :( It didn't take them all that long to clean up what was left.
The government needs money. Shoot the horses and sell the meat to the French. They love horse meat. The hides make good leather.
Wee
ll, we keep putting those jackasses in office so we're getting exactly what we deserve.
Paul B.

[bulletpusher]

I didn't vote for any one of the commie sh** head basterds up in Washington. As far as I'm concerned that commie sh** mascarading as president has yet to prove that he is even an American, born here in the United States of America and not overseas in some rag head sh** hole. He tells all of the Arab countries that we are not a Christian Nation, then comes back here and says something different to keep his front up.

The people I voted for haven't voted for all of the crap going on now. If they do, they will never get another vote from me and I'll do everything within my power to find someone else to vote for to take their place.

But I digress, "I did not vote for him or any of his followers". I would never vote for someone that is showing the Evil that his guy is bruing up.

Believe what you want, my complaint is about the stupidity of government spending.

[Jack]

Here are a couple links to what is in H.R 1018, known as The Mustang Act.
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1018/show
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1018
http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/111_HR_1018.html
I see nothing in the text of the bill about horse condoms or horse abortions.

[bulletpusher]

Jack,

I have not read the bill as of yet, I just reported what was on the radio, from 3 different comentators at 3 different times of the day on 2 different radio stations.

My complaint is about the $700,000.00 spent on population control of horses that was reported on the radio.

I can remimber when I was a youngster the radio reports and newspaper reports about the government spending money (millions and millions) on things like "Studies to find out how a bumble bee fly's, can frisbees be used as flares, etc., etc. It appears that the government has not changed even after all of these years, the commie liberal demicrats where in power then also.

I can tell you the conversations about the horse condums and abortatons was broadcast live over the air waves.

Take it for what its worth.

[GoodOlBoy]

* On Friday July 17, the House of Representatives met to debate . . . Go on, take a guess: Health care? The cap-and-tax racket? Stimulus Two? No, none of the above. Don’t worry, they’re still spending your money. Wild horses couldn’t stop them doing that. The Bill provides condoms for horses.

The welfare mustangs are supposed to be put up for adoption. But, what with the government taking all our money to fund the Barney Frank Institute of Bureaucracy Studies, many of us no longer have the necessary discretionary income to stable a mustang in the rec room. A lot of the nags in managed-care facilities are getting a bit long in the tooth, and thus unlikely ever to find homes. So, rather than go on attempting to flog near-dead horses, the BLM was considering inviting the seniors to do the decent thing and sign up for assisted suicide or, in the designated euphemism, death with dignity. In the Netherlands, pretty much everyone over 47 who goes into hospital for a minor hernia winds up getting talked into death with dignity. Given that mustangs were introduced to America by the Spanish, its not inappropriate that they should meet a European end. With all this in mind congress decided to mandate enhanced contraception for horses and burros. Yes that’s right $700 million for Horse Condoms.


http://monroerising.com/2009/07/20/barney-frank-wants-to-spen-700-million-for-horse-condoms/

didn't take much of a search to find about 50 websites with this information in it.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

House Democrats plan to hold a vote on the “Restore Our American Mustangs Act” (H.R.1018), which would create a new $700 million welfare program for wild horses. This floor action comes at a time when unemployment has soared to 9.5 percent, a 26-year high, and the federal deficit has grown to a historic $1 trillion.

“There are serious issues facing our country right now and it’s absurd that Democrat leaders believe that spending $700 million to pamper wild horses is the best use of our time and Americans’ tax dollars,” said Ranking Member Hastings. “Instead of restoring American mustangs, let’s restore American jobs and put the horsepower back into our economy.”

Here’s what HR1018 proposes to do with the $700 million:

* Conducts a horse census every two years
* Provides “enhanced contraception” and birth control for horses
* Establishes an additional 19 million acres of public and private land for wild horses
* Covers $5 million tab to repair horse damage to land
* Mandates that government bureaucrats perform home inspections before Americans can adopt horses

Birth control … for horses. How exactly does that restore the mustang population? If it needs “restoring”, doesn’t that suggest that we need to encourage reproduction rather than launching a mustang safe-sex program? Of course, mustang rubbers would make each successive “horse census” easier, assuming mustangs can figure out how to wear them.

And what exactly does a government inspection of a home for “adopting” a mustang mean? It sounds like a back-door way for the federal government to interfere with horse sales, or at best a wildly stupid idea about the role of the federal government in relation to American homes and pet adoption. Note that the federal government does not do home inspections for human adoption; those get handled by state governments.

Of course, it’s the third point that really means anything at all. It’s a land grab. Congress wants to condemn another 19 million acres of land for their own control, and they’re using the mustangs as an excuse. It’s transparent, and transparently stupid in the middle of this economic crisis. Democrats need to quit laying money on the horses — and while they’re at it, quit betting with House money on socialist schemes.

from another site. . . .

GoodOlBoy

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Bulletpusher, they could employ one of those people that are called ' bullmilkers'...now if they can do that job, they are mean and tough enough to put condoms on a horse....lmao..just need someone to hold their sign

[Jack]

GOB, I can see lots of references in the links you've shown- but again, not in the bill.

[GoodOlBoy]

Fine, I could read it aloud for you but we cannot attach audio files.

‘(10) Research, develop, and implement enhanced fertility control for mares, stallions, or both, such as surgical or immunocontraception sterilization or other safe, humane, and effective methods of fertility control.’.

‘(J) the percentage of the Bureau of Land Management budget devoted to contraception annually;

‘(L) which herds have been administered contraception and with what results.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1018

you would think that someone who had read the bill would have noticed the word contraception mentioned in plain letters THREE times (oops immunocontraception once of three wouldnt want to misquote).

Does it mean condoms per say as it is listed in the bill? No. But Barney Franks was the one who sliped up during a private interview with a liberal newspaper and used the word condom. Afterwards it spread to the media in sarcasm. They still want birth control for wild horses. PERIOD.

No I don't have the link to Barney Franks slipup, it was a blurb on TV and believe it or not my danged tv don't paste links, at least not from local TV news stations.

GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

"Does it mean condoms per say as it is listed in the bill? No"
Nor does the word 'abortion' appear.
And that is all I said.

[bulletpusher]

Jack,

Your defication is compacted so tight that your svinkter is puckered tighter than Dicks hat band.

No one can please you. You just keep wanting to bring up does it really say put condums on horses or abortation of damn horses.

Do you even care that the damn government, lead by and illegal alien, spends us, and our decendents for about 200 years into the poor house and will be paying for all of the crap those a**holes are spending our money on.

I give up, you win, your butt is the blackest.

[GoodOlBoy]

Franks mentioned abortion in the same interview he talked about condoms.

The bill doesn't mention it, but it danged sure leaves the loophole open for it.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

"Does it mean condoms per say as it is listed in the bill? No"
Nor does the word 'abortion' appear.
And that is all I said.

I'm with Jack on this one and I haven't even read the bill yet. What is hilarious is that people on here are complaining about too many horses screwing up their hunting spot and getting rid of the deer, and then they are complaining about the government doing something to try and decrease the horse population.

Now, I completely understand that there are too many horses, and the cheap way to get rid of the problem is to allow people to shoot them all. Now, after you kill a group of 100 horses, what do you do with the carcasses? Do you just leave them out there to rot for the vultures/buzzards, and for the bears and wolves? Next thing you know, you guys will be complaining that there are too many wolves and bear around and they are eating all the deer now because they ran out of dead horse carcasses. So, you will want to start shooting the bear and wolves. After they are all gone, you will be complaining that the proliferation of deer are causing way too many human fatalities in car crashes, but there will not be enough hunters out there to take care of the deer over population. Believe me, I know, because we have this problem in Maryland right now.

I am a conservative, and my father in-law watches some conservative show on Fox or some other channel every time he visits. Well, this one guy was going down the list of 100 top pork spending amounts, but he was going through it so quickly and not spending any time on any one of them. I had so many questions about them, and some didn't really seem that off the wall.

Honestly, I think way too many liberals and conservatives (i.e., Americans in general) get their political information from radio shows and TV shows where it is the hosts only goal to make sure that people remain tuned in. Imagine actually going through all the reasoning behind some of these spending bills. People would turn off the TV/radio because that is not what they want to hear. Conservatives want to hear how bad the current government is doing, and the liberals want to hear how good it is doing. Americans really do not want to read through proposed legislative bills, especially ones that are 1,000 pages long. Heck, our representatives don't even want to read through that much stuff.

If you dig deep enough, I'm sure there is plenty of money being spent on CRP and other things that we as hunters find to be great ideas, but the rest of America thinks is BS.

[GoodOlBoy]

fabs I understand what Jack originally said. Not it doesn't appear in the bill, but the word Ruger Blackhawk doesn't appear in the HR45 handgun bill either and you can bet your bottom it will be affected as well. What people are up in arms about, and where this comes from are the words of one of the Bill's MAJOR sponsors Barney Franks (may he grow a boil on his backside the size of his ego). You can bet that if Franks has said these things (which I heard from his mouth via a newscast assuming they didn't manipulate the audio track on the video) then you can bet he intends to try them once the Bill is passed.

Hunters or no hunters the Bill is BS. First a Bill comes along to save the wild mustang from extinction (which there was little danger of if you look at the numbers back then) and now they want contraception because there are too many of them. This from people and organizations who can't even get an accurate headcount!

It is the same thing happening OVER AND OVER

Example #1
The hog problems in Texas. In the 80's reactionary Congressmen caused the pig market to just about go bankrupt because of a few cases of pigs with runny noses. People couldn't sell their hogs for enough money to pay for the feed they cost so they declared bankruptcy, opened the pens, and left. Now the 90's come along and the pigs are destroying crops, fields, and pastures so people begin to trap and hunt them as a favor to property owners and sell the meat to slaughterhouses. A Congressman decides that it is making money off of a natrual resource and we can't have that so a bill is passed declaring that feral pigs cannot be sold to slaughterhouses since it is a natural resouce, against the advice of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. You can eat it, or you can leave it to rot, but you can't sell it. Now the 00's roll around and Texas is talking about passing a Multi(read hundreds of)million dollar deal to help landowners deal with the staggering number of feral hogs destroying the countryside, crops, hay fields, etc. To solve the problem the idiots that the overeducated helped put in office could simply repeal the 90's law and let people begin to trap them and sell them again, but in order to do that these overarrogant overeducated buggers would have to admit they were wrong, and they are not about to do that.

Example #2
In the 80's a small feed company in Texas found that they could use a specially designed boat to harvest the hydrilla (we just call it seaweed even though its freshwater) from lakes and ponds and make highly nutritious cattle feed out of it. They begin to do so, and feed prices drop slightly with this feed being the lowest priced stuff you could buy. Small farmers and ranchers loved the stuff and we bought it by the truckload since cattle did VERY well on it. A Congressman decided this was making profit from a natural resouce (again) and sponsered a bill that was passed into law to put a stop to it. The 90's Roll along and now those with lakeside property are having to pay thousands of extra dollars a year, and taxpayers are paying even more in the counties with these large lakes to have the hydrilla poisoned, harvested, and burned to get rid of it every few months. Now the 00's come along and it is discovered that all the "harmless" poison used to kill the Hyrdilla was actually killing out other aquatic plants as well, and now there is a problem with pollution and O2 saturation levels in the lakes. So now we have a Bill sitting in the Texas house waiting to be passed to spend multi(yet again read hundres of)million dollars to rebuild the native aquatic plants and find a way to deal with the hydrilla. Why not let the small buisness make cattle feed again and employee the hundreds or workers it once did? Because they would have to admit they were wrong.

Example #3
Nutria rats in Louisiana. In the 60's and 70's Nutria rats were reintroduced to Louisiana bayous and creeks to help get rid of problems in overvegatated areas. In the 80's the population of these little buggers began to suddenly grow by leaps and bounds. Enter the 90's. Now the rats are cutting burrows in dikes and dams and causing other problems with Louisiana public and private waterways. A Japanese company offers to build a plant in Louisiana to harvest, clean, and can Nutria meat (which is a delicacy in Asian countries) and hire 1400+ people to start. The plans include the eventuality of building Nutria farms (and hiring more people) once the wild population has been brought under control. Louisiana congressmen decide that this would be making money off of a wild resource and say no. 00's roll around the Nutria problem is worse than ever. The worst of the areas have a bounty (ranging from $20 to $50 a head) on Nutria and the state is looking to pass a multi(yep you guessed it hundreds of)million dollar bill to help combat the increasing populations.

This is the lack of common sense, and the tendancy to make the same mistakes OVER AND OVER AND OVER by overeducated dimwits put into power.

There are common sense low cost solutions to almost all of these problems. Now go try to convince a senator, or congressman to help do them and sit back and watch as their eyes roll back in their head and they begin to foam at the mouth chanting "Can't make money off of the system." while drooling on themselves.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

GOB,

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm not going to agree with you either. Things always seem so black and white. Kind of like how we used to have tons and tons of Bison. What happened there? Market hunters almost made them extinct. There used to be an over abundance of waterfowl too, until market hunters brought some of them to the brink of extinction. With waterfowl, we still have years where the entire season on them is closed (e.g., Canvasback, Pintail, the Atlantic canada goose).

With the feral hogs and the seaweed, I would say no problem because they both seem like pests. However, what happens to the price of pork once market hunters enter the scenario? Will the price of pork go up or down as the supply steadily increases? I can tell you the answer to that. The price will go down. So, what happens to the pig farmers? They will get less and less money for their pigs, and will do the same thing. Up and quit and let the pigs run free. Now, what happens after the market hunters wipe out the pigs and there are no more pig farmers around? I guess we can hope that more pig farmers will get back into the business. I'm willing to bet that these smart people are being tugged by the pig farmers and the current feed regarding the pig hunting and seaweed harvesting respectively.

In today's world, nothing is very simple, and very few things are black and white.

[bulletpusher]

After looking at your post, I would like to correct a couple of your misconceptions.

The plains buffalo was killed down almost to extinction to stop the Plains Indians that were giving the U.S. Army Calvary such a hard time. It was not for market hunting.

The buffalo (of which there where 3 or 4 main heards numbering in the hunderds of thousands in each heard) was the main source of food, clothing and tool sources for the Indians.

Since that time, the buffalo have made a come back to the point people are paying big bucks to hunt them on private ranches that have heards of them in the hundereds of thousands again and still growing.

You said that the Canadian goose seasons are closed some years. Well the last 4 or 5 years the Canadian government has opened a spring and fall goose hunt seasons because the geese are so thick that they need to hunt them 2 times a year just to help control the overpopulations of the geese. They are doing this because the geese are eating themselves into starvation due to lack of areas that can hold that many geese at one time.

I read in another place where you commented on global warming. Just so you know Global Warming is a big lie. It is the new religion some people. The main thing it is, is a way for some people to get rich quick, working on someone else's fears, like our former vice-president and lier Al Gore. He owns two companies that sell carbon credits, so yes he wants everyone to buy carbon credits. "Its all a big lie".

As far as what I listen to on the radio or the TV, thats my buisness. I don't listen to most of the tv news programs because they are a bunch of liberal communist lieing idots with $150 hair cuts that can't think with out a teleprompter, just like the pretender in the White House and they would not know the truth if it bit them on the ass.

The radio shows that I listen to are of my chooseing and I listen because they are for the most part telling more of the truth than anyone else.

Now you can disagree with me, I don't care, I will not try to change your mind or persuade you to come over to my side. You can believe what you want to believe, thats your problem, not mine.

But you might want to consider that things are black and white most of the time and sometimes with shades of gray for a little spice.

[GoodOlBoy]

Market hunters will never be able to wipe out feral pigs (and it is a real shame they can't) First of all Pigs begin breeding at 8 months of age, gestation is 112-114 days, and the litters run from 6-18 in feral pigs (although litters above 12 do not have a good survival rate) The Texas Parks and Wildlife announced last hunting season that they believe the feral pig population in Texas alone is growing by about 60000 (yes thats sixty THOUSAND) a year.

Tell me how market hunters are going to keep up with that? Two days ago I saw 6 full grown sows surrounded by more than sixty piglets that looked to be 2-3 months old. By deer season they will have bred, and by February 2/3s of them will have had liters of 6-18!

You want to throw buffalo in there because of it? We are not talking about a native breed wiped out by the US government to starve native people! We are talking about a wildlife catastrophe CREATED by the government from the time they started using scare tactics about pig disease in the 80s until the time they banished selling the meat! Now most ranchers pay people to come shoot the pigs and roll them into a ditch because the meat can't be sold, you can only eat so much pork, and Hunter's for the Hungry won't take pork in case it offends the PC crowd!

You know whats black and white? Hay and vegetable prices in east Texas because of the crops that have been destroyed by feral pigs, THAT'S whats black and white. Even attacks on people by pigs have gone through the roof in the last few years. The autobody shops around are seeing record numbers of pig destroyed cars (yea destroyed you hit a pig and you aint pullin that dent out!)

Ill post some links later

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

GOB,

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm not going to agree with you either. Things always seem so black and white. Kind of like how we used to have tons and tons of Bison. What happened there? Market hunters almost made them extinct. There used to be an over abundance of waterfowl too, until market hunters brought some of them to the brink of extinction. With waterfowl, we still have years where the entire season on them is closed (e.g., Canvasback, Pintail, the Atlantic canada goose).

With the feral hogs and the seaweed, I would say no problem because they both seem like pests. However, what happens to the price of pork once market hunters enter the scenario? Will the price of pork go up or down as the supply steadily increases? I can tell you the answer to that. The price will go down. So, what happens to the pig farmers? They will get less and less money for their pigs, and will do the same thing. Up and quit and let the pigs run free. Now, what happens after the market hunters wipe out the pigs and there are no more pig farmers around? I guess we can hope that more pig farmers will get back into the business. I'm willing to bet that these smart people are being tugged by the pig farmers and the current feed regarding the pig hunting and seaweed harvesting respectively.

In today's world, nothing is very simple, and very few things are black and white.

Well Fabs..as far as the wild critters in this country you should know better than what you said. As was pointed out with the Buffalo that was a governmental decision that brought the natives in this country to their knees along with other measures. As far as the ducks and geese..Fabs market hunting has been outlawed nearly 100 yrs. That isn't what is affecting waterfowl numbers...and you do know it. Breeding areas have been lost in large measure to urban sprawl and modern farming practices. Wintering areas too. Got any resident geese in your area?? Yep..I know so.. I also remember when there were no geese in Md..probably less in the winter than live in Prince Georges county now. Then farming practices changed and geese faired well. Then they took a turn for the worse with bad nesting years. Yep..we kept shooting them..but with a bit of luck they will come back.

As far as feral pigs..or grizzlies or wolves....only when man makes ridiculous laws do we have real problems. Feral pigs are a big problem in more areas than Texas..but especially bad there. Wolves in Wyoming are turning into a real problem.. The Elk herds are being affected tremendously by the wolves and grizzlies. With the new crop of calves at a survival rate of 3% or less..guess what will happen? And the grizzlies are not afraid of people. We just had another grizz attack..and a mountain lion attack etc etc. Hate to say it Fabs but there are many black and white solutions to many black and white problems..Seems like too many gray areas are created by politicians. And must I say... too many politicians are ...Lawyers:D:D

[fabsroman]

Bison were hunted almost to extinction in the 19th century and were reduced to a few hundred by the mid-1880s. They were hunted for their skins, with the rest of the animal left behind to decay on the ground.[16] After the animals rotted, their bones were collected and shipped back east in large quantities.[16]

The US Army sanctioned and actively endorsed the wholesale slaughter of bison herds.[17] The US Federal government promoted bison hunting for various reasons, to allow ranchers to range their cattle without competition from other bovines, and primarily to weaken the North American Indian population by removing their main food source and to pressure them onto the reservations.[18] Without the bison, native people of the plains were forced to leave the land or starve to death.

According to historian Pekka Hämäläinen, Native Americans also contributed to the collapse of the bison.[19] By the 1830s the Comanche and their allies on the southern plains were killing about 280,000 bison a year, which was near the limit of sustainability for that region. Firearms and horses, along with a growing export market for buffalo robes and bison meat had resulted in larger and larger numbers of bison killed each year. A long and intense drought hit the southern plains in 1845, lasting into the 1860s, which caused a widespread collapse of the bison herds.[19] In the 1860s, the rains returned and the bison herds recovered to a degree.

The railroad industry also wanted bison herds culled or eliminated. Herds of bison on tracks could damage locomotives when the trains failed to stop in time. Herds often took shelter in the artificial cuts formed by the grade of the track winding though hills and mountains in harsh winter conditions. As a result, bison herds could delay a train for days.
This map based on William Temple Hornaday's late-nineteenth-century research.
A pile of bison skulls in the 1870s.

The main reason for the bison's near-demise, much like the actual demise of the Passenger Pigeon, was commercial hunting.

Bison skins were used for industrial machine belts, clothing such as robes, and rugs. There was a huge export trade to Europe of bison hides. Old West bison hunting was very often a big commercial enterprise, involving organized teams of one or two professional hunters, backed by a team of skinners, gun cleaners, cartridge reloaders, cooks, wranglers, blacksmiths, security guards, teamsters, and numerous horses and wagons. Men were even employed to recover and recast lead bullets taken from the carcasses. Many of these professional hunters, such as Buffalo Bill Cody, killed over a hundred animals at a single stand and many thousands in their career. One professional hunter killed over 20,000 by his own count. A good hide could bring $3 in Dodge City, Kansas, and a very good one (the heavy winter coat) could sell for $50 in an era when a laborer would be lucky to make a dollar a day.

The hunter would customarily locate the herd in the early morning, and station himself about 100 meters (100 yd) from it, shooting the animals broadside through the lungs. Head shots were not preferred as the soft lead bullets would often flatten and fail to penetrate the skull, especially if mud was matted on the head of the animal. The bison would drop until either the herd sensed danger and stampeded or perhaps a wounded animal attacked another, causing the herd to disperse. If done properly a large number of bison would be felled at one time. Following up were the skinners, who would drive a spike through the nose of each dead animal with a sledgehammer, hook up a horse team, and pull the hide from the carcass. The hides were dressed, prepared, and stacked on the wagons by other members of the organization.
A bull bison, illustrated in The Extermination of the American Bison. Used on the obverse of the 1901 American Bison $10 bill.

For a decade from 1873 on there were several hundred, perhaps over a thousand, such commercial hide hunting outfits harvesting bison at any one time, vastly exceeding the take by American Indians or individual meat hunters. The commercial take arguably was anywhere from 2,000 to 100,000 animals per day depending on the season, though there are no statistics available. It was said that the Big .50s were fired so much that hunters needed at least two rifles to let the barrels cool off; The Fireside Book of Guns reports they were sometimes quenched in the winter snow. Dodge City saw railroad cars sent East filled with stacked hides.

As the great herds began to wane, proposals to protect the bison were discussed. Cody, among others, spoke in favor of protecting the bison because he saw that the pressure on the species was too great. Yet these proposals were discouraged since it was recognized that the Plains Indians, often at war with the United States, depended on bison for their way of life. In 1874, President Ulysses S. Grant "pocket vetoed" a Federal bill to protect the dwindling bison herds, and in 1875 General Philip Sheridan pleaded to a joint session of Congress to slaughter the herds, to deprive the Indians of their source of food.[20] By 1884, the American Bison was close to extinction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison

That Wiki article even provides footnotes for the source of the information.

If you guys need more links, please let me know.

Google is a wonderful thing. You guys should try it sometime, especially if you want to take specific positions on something. Again, it was commercial hunting that did in the Bison.

Now Skeet, why don't you explain to Bulletpusher how there was a moratorium on hunting the Atlantic canada goose population for several years, and even now I believe the daily bag limit is one or two birds.

[fabsroman]

And here we have another little bit about market hunting:

As the states became populated, market hunting developed into both a major business and a respected profession. With the development of the country, needs for specialized skills developed in the society. Shopkeepers, blacksmiths, doctors, wagon makers, and other craftsmen concentrated on their trades. While they may have enjoyed hunting as a personal activity, they could not afford to hunt for subsistence. One of the developing trades became market hunting. Market hunters provided a supply of wild game meat to the growing towns. These professional hunters specialized in their trade as well, making a living by hunting, trapping or otherwise providing meat.



Skilled specialists, market hunters were not restricted by bag limits or seasons in most states. As a result, their unrestricted harvests were able to deplete game populations significantly. Those impacts were enhanced by habitat loss. One state that was nearly completely forested in colonial times had only 16 percent of its forests by 1850. With the loss of that forested habitat came the loss of most forest and forest edge wildlife.



Although today we know that market hunting led to over-exploitation of many species, market hunters provided a necessary service. Immense game herds and flocks seemed limitless, but as demand for meat and market hunting efficiency increased, populations began to suffer. Obvious declines or even extirpations of deer, bison, antelope and elk took place. Waterfowl and upland birds, including the passenger pigeon, declined under continuous demand for game meat by the growing American population.



As these losses became obvious to sport hunters (non-commercial hunters), they developed a concern for the future of wildlife and began to work for change and improvement. As the end of the 19th century approached, sportsmen conservationists who recognized something was wrong began to call for controls on the harvest of game. They demanded that action be taken to conserve wildlife populations. In 1888, a group of sport hunters started the Boone and Crockett Club, which led a crusade to protect the nation's troubled game herds. Their actions led to the development of national parks and wildlife refuges as well as regulation of harvest. By 1900, twenty-three states enacted laws that limited harvest.


Their efforts started a trend of caring for wildlife that continued into the 20th century as more game protection programs were implemented. In 1900, the Lacey Act prohibited interstate shipment of illegally killed wildlife. This provided some federal help under the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution to control market hunting. A forester at the University of Wisconsin, Aldo Leopold, wrote the first wildlife management text in North America in 1933 and helped formalize the emerging art and science of wildlife management. The Duck Stamp Act of 1934, lobbied for by waterfowlers, provided funds from federal stamps to aid in waterfowl management and to permit purchase of lands for federal waterfowl refuges. Sportsmen lobbied for an additional excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition to provide aid to states for resident wildlife management. In 1937, the Pittman-Robertson Act was passed taxing long guns and ammunition for this dedicated purpose. This legislation has perhaps had the greatest impact on wildlife research and management of any legislation ever passed.

http://www.gunmuse.com/Blog/Dr%20Jim%20Knight/218

[fabsroman]

Sure GOB, continue to tell yourself that market hunters would not be able to decimate the feral hog population if market hunting was allowed and there was a demand for the meat.

Let's talk technology here and the definition of market hunting. Market hunting is not sitting up in a tree stand with a rifle all day waiting to kill one or two hogs, but slaughtering the entire group when you come upon them. On top of that, it would allow the use of implements that sport hunters are not allowed to use to pursue the feral hogs. They might even allow the use of helicopters to locate and shoot the hogs. Imagine how much ground a market hunter could cover if it turned out to be a proftable venture. The pilot and the shooter fly around killing hogs and then radio the coordinates to the ground crew that come and pick them up with trucks and ATV's. Just take a look at market hunting of waterfowl, etc. that I posted above in response to Bulletpusher and Skeet. Again, if there is a demand for the meat, hide, etc. and the hunters can turn a profit, I'm willing to be that they would put one heck of a hurt on feral hogs.

I bet nobody would have dreamed that commercial fishermen would be able to fish the seas dry of fish, but it is happening. Believe me, when there is a profit to be had, man will exploit it.

[skeet]

It has merely been pointed out that the buffalo were wiped out for more than a commerciql reason. And of course fish and other natural resources are being over exploited. We all know what you are pointing out..but..tell us all how the US commercial fishing fleets are doing that?? US Fabs. We can not control other countries and what they do to the environment and wildfife populations.. We have control over our own borders. The Canada Goose hunting was curtailed on the east coast(Atlantic population) for quite a few years. There was an unforeseen over harvest and an unforessen under recruitment of young..meaning that the geese were losing numbers. They were not able to keep the numbers up because of several years of unsuccessful breeding attempts. The reduction of numbers wasn't due solely to market hunting as you seem to be pointing out. They were overhunted(not just in the US) at the same time they were unsuccessful in breeding due to weather. Market hunting of waterfowl and other shorebirds was stopped in 1918 I think. Was it wrong to market hunt?? To our way of thinking now it was..but in it's heyday ...doubtful. Remember Fabs..When did we reach the goal of 100 million people in this country? Heck we didn't reach 200 million until the 1960's..and it has gone downhill for all species of wildlife since then..except for the ones that sports men and women have helped through the P-R taxes they helped initiate..and through organizations such as DU and others supporting game such as quail turkey pheasant deer and Elk. There really is NO such thing as any organized "market hunting" any longer. At least on any large scale. Tell me how the Petas and HSUSA are helping all of the animals in this country. You know talking about the buffalo..there used to be wolves that followed the herds around. Those same wolves were still in the area around Yellowstone. Not here now though. They were smaller than the Da*N wolves that lobbyist got introduced. Guess what killed 'em off?? My neighboor saw wolves regularly before the wolf introduction. It was NOT a re-introduction. And all the no fur people..many furbearers are predators. Guess how the wild bird populations are fairing in some areas. Those people complain about the wearing of fur while the reduction of trapping has killed 50 times the population of critters. As I said, Fabs..how many geese are there in PG County?? In 1955 they figured there were about 20,000 Canada Geese wintering in Md. Bet there are more in PG now

Now tell us how hunters are going to hurt the pork industry and wipe out feral hogs.... Lets kill the feral hog and let 'em lay..a waste but it certainly won't hurt the pork industry..anymore than deer hunting hurts the beef industry. The feral hog problem and the horse problems in this country have occurred because of political meddling into things that shouldn't have happend. Horses are such a glut on the market right now it is unbelievable. You can hardly sell a horse..and you surely can't slaughter them. That is why there are so many horses..Ya can't put 'em down even for dog food. Horse meat is eaten in many countries including Canadaand used to be eaten here too (Mickey D's??). It is now ILLEGAL to ship horses across the Canadian border to have them slaughtered for food.. Sheesh Fabs. Our governing bodies have put the country in this position because of undue pressure from lobbying groups. Again lobbyists and politicians..people using the law to get their own way. And most of those people are..lawyers!!:D In case you were wondering...that was a little dig at some of your...friends and associates. hahaha

[GoodOlBoy]

OK fabs lets mention the fact that I have done market hunting (coon meat) and know what it is. Lets also mention the fact that decimating the feral hog population would be a GOOD thing (second only to decimating the fireant population in east Texas). (We could also mention that I rarely stand hunt, that is harvesting not hunting)

At any rate market hunting for pig will never be profitable enough to involve helicopters, carpet bombing, or surface to air missiles, and market hunters were already using devices not allowed in normal hunting in Texas. Devices such as hog dogs, and traps. Why in the heck would somebody WANT to use a very expensive chopper to hunt pigs when they are mostly nocturnal, and a cheap hog trap does the job so effectively and easily that its almost like cheating?

I have to say this particular leg of this conversation has gotten me so riled that I have had to delete about a dozen lines from this post alone.

People who don't live with a problem should have NO say in how the problem is handled. EVER.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

Alright, we have about 8 million different subjects in this post.

Atlantic population of canada geese. My point was that regulation is necessary sometimes. That was my point. Plain and simple. My point wasn't that hunting brought about that matter, but that continued hunting would not have helped it. Sometimes, heck most of the time, government regulation is a good thing. Then, there are the times when government goes too far.

On to the horses. I have no idea what the current laws are regarding horses, and I have no inclination to do any research on them tonight, tomorrow, or this entire week for that matter. I had a PM discussion last year with a rancher on here that owns a 20,000 acre ranch. He wasn't a regular, but it was a good PM discussion. I believe it had to do with elk eating all the food he put out for his cattle. I cannot remember the entire debate, but we had a good time debating it. Anyway, sometimes some laws benefit the many and hurt a few. That kind of stuff needs to be taken into account too. On another board I just finished debating mandatory gun locks, gun safes, and extremely harsh penalties for those that did not use them because some guy wants to prevent accidental deaths to children. Well, I looked up the statistics and all of 1,000 kids from 0 to 18 years of age die each year from accidental gun shots, and not all of those occur in the home where the locks and safes would be worth anything. So, is preventing the majority of these deaths by requiring the mandatory use of locks and safes, and imposing harsh penalties worth the burden to society (i.e., are the few that are harmed worth the cost as a whole).

Would wiping out the horses be worth it? How was it that wolves were pretty much wiped out from the continental US? That couldn't have been all from bears now could it?

Ultimately, if the horses are out of control, I do think they should be controlled. If shooting them and making dog food out of them would work, so be it. However, that puts a market element to it and it could cause some issues. How much would a dog food company be willing to pay for 100 pounds of horse meat? How much profit could the hunter turn? Could these horses be rounded up and just slaughtered in a pen? Would the market hunter be able to make a fortune doing that?

Here is a novel idea. How about letting the USFWS do the killing and selling. The US government can sell this resource to the dog food companies and the American people can receive the benefit with these funds being put back towards additional habitat or the USFWS.

[fabsroman]

Let me start off by saying I know nothing about hunting hogs, or the raising of pigs.

I agree with you about getting rid of the feral hogs being a good thing. From what I have seen, I'll be able to hunt them in Maryland pretty soon.

I think you missed my point. If people are given enough money to do something, then they will do it pretty well. For instance, if a hog would bring in $50 a head, I think there would be plenty of interest. Now, the question is how many pig farmers would this put out of business.

Does feral hog taste just like regular pork, or is it vastly different? Could it be sold as a cheaper type of meat below regular pork? In essence, could there be a market for it? If there is a demand, people will supply it and find profitable ways to do so, whether it be rifles, helicopters, traps, B-52's, or whatever else.

[PJgunner]

"People who don't live with a problem should have NO say in how the problem is handled. EVER."

RIGHT ON GOB! :mad:

"Does feral hog taste just like regular pork, or is it vastly different?"

All I can speak for was the feral hog I ate at a bar-B-Que. Damn good but it did taste different. They cooked it hawaiin stlye buried in a pit with coals. YUM! :cool:

"Could it be sold as a cheaper type of meat below regular pork?"

Probably not. The threat of trichinosis (sp) from domestic pork is quite low but in the feral animal the threat of that disease is quite high. The admontion to cook the meat thoroughly goes triple digit here. :(

I saw a site a few days back where they had a "fill your freezer special" where you can take three cull deer and five feral hogs. The price wasn't too bad and I might give it another look see although I'm not sureI want that much pork. it would remeind me way too much of the Congress. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Paul B.