Man killed in hunting fight

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Pa. man killed in hunting fight had permit revoked

The Associated Press

PITTSBURGH - A man who was shot and killed during an argument with bear hunters about trespassing on his land previously had his concealed weapon permit revoked, then returned.

Frank Shaffer of Red Lion was charged with pulling a gun on a trucker in 2006 after each believed the other cut him off on Interstate 83, the York Dispatch reported.

The charges were dropped when the trucker didn't show at Shaffer's preliminary hearing, the newspaper said.

The York County sheriff revoked Shaffer's permit, but a judge later ordered it be reinstated. Shaffer, a real estate appraiser, had said he needed a weapon for protection while working in dangerous neighborhoods.

Shaffer, 63, was killed Tuesday near Summerville in rural northern Pennsylvania. He had been shot once, but his autopsy had not been completed as of Wednesday afternoon.

Paul H. Plyler, 23, of Summerville was also shot once. His injuries were not considered life-threatening, police said.

Shaffer had confronted a group of four or five hunters about trespassing on land he owns with family members, state police said Tuesday.

Investigators were trying to sort out the details of the shooting, but charges are expected, Trooper Bruce Morris said Tuesday. At least four shots were fired, he said.

Police did not immediately return messages seeking comment Wednesday.

Jerry Feaser, a state Game Commission spokesman, said the agency is helping police with the investigation and referred questions to them.

A hunting license does not automatically grant hunters access to private property, Feaser said.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Now I posted this for a few reasons. First I know if you approach anyone in any matter in a confrontational matter, they will respond the same right from the start..and it sounds like this property owner might have been that sort of a man..only my speculation now but since he does seem quick to pull his CC maybe these other hunters shot him in self defense since one of them had been shot also...but one of the real reasons I sent this is the slam we 'hunters' took not once but 2x in this article. Ths CC permit was noted as if to say they issue them to anyone...and the other as 'hunters' in the woods toting guns will shoot ya if you confront them for being on your property so maybe more property will now be posted as a result...after all who wants a bunch of gun totin nuts on your property...Maybe I am wrong and the fact this guy had his CCP revoked once shows he was too quick to pull it on someone..and a point that maybe these others had a right to self defense...as paul harvy would say...now for the rest of the story...??? But it seems our media keeps puttin in those little digs about hunting, hunters..such as a local man who I know never hunts was jailed for making threats to his girlfriend with his 'hunting' knife..what does hunting have to do with that?...or the nut case shooter that was taken down but the fact she was an NRA member and avid hunter was mentioned...what does that have to do with a homicide in the street? Just digs against the rest of us.

[Rapier]

Skeet,
I read this a bit different as a farm owner. This guy might have been a hot head, very true, but he confronted trespassers on his property illegaly. It really does not make any difference what they were doing, in that aspect, they were on the man's property unlawfuly. I imagine he ordered them off the place and they refused to go, otherwise there would be no gun fight.

By the by, trespassing on argriclutural land in Florida with a firearm is a felony and the land owner may arrest and detain on premisis. Of course no land owner wants to have persons return to damage the property either, so an order to leave is usually good enough.
Best,
Ed

[Swift]

A hunting license does not automatically grant hunters access to private property, Feaser said.

It doesn't give access period.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

There are too many that either do not know how to read signs or most just don't give a rats butt and enter anyhow. Play stupid if caught. We have a local renegade that is that way and it does make for a hard time gaining access by those that stop and ask permission. Most people do not read rules. I know as VP of our local sportsmens club and we have over a thousand members that any violations of rules will get you a response of "I didn't know that". So they are shown written in rule book. No excuse for not knowing and again there are the renegades that do it until get caught..play stupid..you can tell right from the start. It amazes me how many do not read their hunting digest given with hunting license either. I get asked questions and first thing I ask is did you read rule book? NO.. I would like a follow up on just what did happen out there with the shootings but now it is only the hunters word. Generations now have had lack of respect for everything or anyone. I seen it start when a humility paddle in front of the class was stopped because they don't want to 'hurt' their feelings. These same people beat their friends up on the way from school or run up over the hoods,roof and down the trunk of cars on way from school. These people grew up without feelings or respect for authority or anyone or anything. It carries over to adulthood. I see this with problems at the club and most come from the mid 20's generation. Sure these people should of not trespassed but someone was the first to be confrontational with a sad result. I do know this for sure that if I were in a crowd and someone started to shoot people, I would not stand there and be next in line if I had the means to stop the shooter. Again in this case, we only have 1/2 the story and not sure that is what happened. We even had a local game warden and his sons shooting geese on a farmers posted land and when told leave, said I am warden and can do what I want so the landowner got his shotgun out and blasted in the air..He was arrested for doing that...That was lack of respect from people with authority from the warden all the way to the court system. Not the landowner.
Well just got a call from my daughter to hit the deer woods..so good luck to all hunting..be safe and don't trespass or you will be shot.

[fabsroman]

Skeeter,

If a warden was on my land without permission, you can bet I would be video taping the incident and calling the police. If the police didn't want to do anything about it, you can bet I would get the news media, Court system, and citizenry involved. That is the problem with law enforcement too. I think they have forgotten that they are part of society too, that they serve society in general, and that they need to follow the same rules that the rest of us follow. Too many LEO's get their badge and think they have carte blanch or that they have just received some sort of super power.

Now, the reason the landowner was arrested is because firing in the air can be considered an assault, but that is pretty weak.

[popplecop]

In Wisconsin, a Conservation Warden does not your permission to enter your land in performance of doing their duties wether posted or not.

[Okie Hog]

I read this a bit different as a farm owner. This guy might have been a hot head, very true, but he confronted trespassers on his property illegaly. It really does not make any difference what they were doing, in that aspect, they were on the man's property unlawfuly. I imagine he ordered them off the place and they refused to go, otherwise there would be no gun fight.




Good post.

We had a problem with hunters trespassing on one of our properties. That place was and still is posted. A hunting club had a huge adjacent place leased and they tramped all over mine and the neighbors property. I ran an OK city lawyer off our place and called the sheriff on an cop who refused to leave. One guy insisted on cutting my fences and driving his four wheeler all over the place. Called the sheriff and the guy was arrested because of a want for a violent crime in TX.

It all came to an end when a grass fire on the neighbors property torched the new Dodge diesel pickup that trespassers had parked on that place: No more trespassing problems.

[buckhunter]

I'm abbout 95% sure a warden can come on your property in New England if they are doing their duties. Agree with Fabs, a small number of LEO's believe they are don't have to play by the rules. We have them here but for the most part our LEO are OK. I love to get one that tell me "Because I said so".

[Adam Helmer]

skeeter,

I own a farm and it is POSTED. A few years ago on opening day of PA rifle deer season I walked to my upper field and saw a 50+/- age man and a 17+/- age lad in the center of my posted farm. I said to the older man,"Hello, I am so and so." He spat back, "I know who the *&^% you are." I then said, "Get off my land." He replied, "It is gonna be to $%^&*!@ bad something happens to your farm house this Februrary in below zero weather and you are out of town." I then escorted both folks off my farm. I got the plate number of his vehicle and called it in and made a FORMAL COMPLAINT to the State Police. The SP said, "You have no case because you have no witness to back your claim."Turns out this jackass was a DEPUTY PA GAME WARDEN who refused to identify himself to a landowner upon request! I contacted the Game Commission and the jackass is no longer a Deputy WCO!

WHEN I confront any tresspasser, I have my rifle/shotgun at port arms and the ONLY story to the coroner's inquest will be mine! Look at the Wisconsin case where 8 hunting club members (unarmed) went to evict that Cambodian tressspasser from a tree stand and he "BAGGED" all the numbnuts one-by-one with his SKS.

The last tresspasser told me, "I did not see no signs." I said, "Ok, then show me your parachute. The only way to get into the middle of this farm and see NO Posted signs is by parachute!" I walked that mope off my land. It is not Disneyland out there. If you confront an armed tresspasser, have "Enough Gun" at port arms and the stones to use it if needed. Been there and done that.

Adam

[buckhunter]

When we had the farm in Kansas we had a lot of problems with tresspassers. Never had a issue just asked them to leave. Normally the did just that. Times were sure different back then.

[petey]

As with most media reports, they never tell the full story. This incedent happened not 10 miles from where I work. The land owner was a nut job (In my on opinion), fired shots at a couple hunters that were "supposedly" on his land and was shot in killed in self defense.

Just because someone is on your land does not give you the right to open fire on the tresspassers. Only if they are threatening your life, or entering your residence. Think of it as the hunter's stand point. You're hunting, some nut job starts shooting at you and you are hit (even if you are tresspassing), what are you going to do? Shoot back.

Yes, the land owner fired, hit the young man and they returned fire.. Simple case of self defense. One less nut job is living ,over what? A simple misdemeanor of tresspassing...pure stupidity if you ask me.

I'm all for one protecting one's property, but within the legal limits. Pulling a gun on a tresspasser, very close to a property line is not the way to handle things. Call the police and have them remove the tresspassers. No sense in getting shot over the ordeal.

[Rapier]

Pete,
Sorry but the story you relate does not make any sense at all. A lone man in the woods opens fire on a group of armed men, without any provication at all, simply to get them off his property? Frankly it sounds like the survivor's story, all trspassers. If any one of them shot first, all fellons.
Best,
Ed

[petey]

As the story goes, the said property owner saw the hunters on his land, went down to kick them off. He stated it was his land and to get off and the hunters (2) said he doesn't know his property very well and that they were not on his land, that his boundary was close, but they were not on his land. The said landowner then went back to his house and got an "assult" weapon (I've heard fully auto AK of which apparently wasn't registered..or of a kind that was a federal offense) and proceded to fire upon the hunters striking one. The hunters fired in return killing the land owner.

Given the landowner's past convictions, and from what the locals say, I'd say this story is more true than what the media printed...which wasn't much at all. Fact is, the landowner fired first since he was shot in the head. Can't do much shooting after that happens.

We have quite a few nut jobs around here that have the attitude of shoot first ask questions later if you even step on their property. I have one that lives not 2 miles from my house. He's been known to shoot holes in vehicles parked along the road near his property, slash tires and shoot at them just because. ILike I said, I'm all for protecting one's property, but within the laws. Some people just need a shrink...from what I'm told this landowner was one of them.

[Rapier]

Thanks Pete for the clarification. Wow, that makes a whole new story out of the incident for sure. Not good that this was even reported as a hunting incident by the papers. :(
Best,
Ed

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

I KNOW the location of all 14 rebar pins that set off my 60-acre farm. I have placed "Posted" signs all around my land. IF some MOPE comes onto my land and proceeds to tell me what stop to get off, Then we will get it sorted out right then and there. Tresspassers have NO standing on private property. I have flagged my property. Any numb nuts 10 or 15 feet inside my flagged line is a TRESSPASSER!

I will challenge all tresspassers on my land. I know tresspassers have the likely potential for armed response to eviction. I take enough gun at port arms with a "Pair" to meet the disgruntled MOPES. I have won all confrontations to date. It IS MY land and I am not brushed aside by PUNKS. IF they want TOUGH, I am the First Responder!

Adam

[fabsroman]

In Wisconsin, a Conservation Warden does not your permission to enter your land in performance of doing their duties wether posted or not.

In the example given, I think the warden was actually hunting on the person's property. Last I checked, hunting isn't really part of a conservation officer's duties. This is what I was replying to in Skeeter's post:

We even had a local game warden and his sons shooting geese on a farmers posted land and when told leave, said I am warden and can do what I want so the landowner got his shotgun out and blasted in the air..He was arrested for doing that...

What you wrote, I believe is correct in all 50 states. Any law enforcement officer can enter a person's land without needing permission if they are discharging their law enforcement duties, the exception being a person's house which requires a search warrant. However, hunting on a person's land is a completely different matter.

[fabsroman]

As the story goes, the said property owner saw the hunters on his land, went down to kick them off. He stated it was his land and to get off and the hunters (2) said he doesn't know his property very well and that they were not on his land, that his boundary was close, but they were not on his land. The said landowner then went back to his house and got an "assult" weapon (I've heard fully auto AK of which apparently wasn't registered..or of a kind that was a federal offense) and proceded to fire upon the hunters striking one. The hunters fired in return killing the land owner.

Given the landowner's past convictions, and from what the locals say, I'd say this story is more true than what the media printed...which wasn't much at all. Fact is, the landowner fired first since he was shot in the head. Can't do much shooting after that happens.

We have quite a few nut jobs around here that have the attitude of shoot first ask questions later if you even step on their property. I have one that lives not 2 miles from my house. He's been known to shoot holes in vehicles parked along the road near his property, slash tires and shoot at them just because. ILike I said, I'm all for protecting one's property, but within the laws. Some people just need a shrink...from what I'm told this landowner was one of them.

I've hunted with people that have personally confronted trespassers that were hunting their property. If it were me, I wouldn't be doing it. I'd call 911 and leave it at that. Going out to confront somebody I don't know, who is carrying a gun, just sounds like a bad idea all the way around. Law enforcement is trained to handle this stuff, and people probably react better to an LEO in uniform with a gun drawn on them versus me in jeans and a sweater carrying a shotgun.

Several years ago, I was setting up decoys in a field and another group of hunters had planned to hunt the field that morning. The first guy that arrived called his buddy when he saw me in the field and his buddy told him to get out his shotgun and come down and "talk" to me about what was going on. They actually thought I was the guy that stole their decoys the year before. Anyway, how receptive would I have been to somebody approaching me with a shotgun in their hand? Luckily, the guy didn't take that approach, we talked the situation over, got the farm owner's grandson involved, and we both ended up hunting the same blind together that day and having a great time.

[Okie Hog]

My wife and I own three hunting properties in two OK counties. We bought those places for hunting, fishing and recreation: There are no cattle or horses on our property. We paid for those properties
and we pay the taxes on them. They were fenced and posted at considerable expense. I plant 12 acres of game plots every year and provide supplemental food for the game. Our property is posted as provided for in OK law. Only one place ever had a big problem with trespassers and that was because of a hunting club that had leased a
big place across the road.

I am a reaonable man who treats everyone like he wants to be treated. People do make mistakes and trespass without knowing it. However, it really does infuriate me when some perp knowingly trespasses on our property. I will approach every trespasser I see on our land. The guy with the 4 wheeler was arrested by me at gun point. He is now serving a life sentence for crimes he did in TX.

OK is a little different from the eastern states. If a guy threatens you on your own land in this state he can be shot. The prosecutors here are not even required to take a good shoot to the grand jury.

[Swift]

Adam, I applaud your conviction.

Just remember there is always someone out there with a screw loose who is faster on the draw.

Stay safe.

[fabsroman]

Adam, I applaud your conviction.

Just remember there is always someone out there with a screw loose who is faster on the draw.

Stay safe.

That is what I was going to write last night, and then decided not to. Also, when there are two or more people, it really makes it tough to win a gun fight. It just isn't worth it in my opinion. Law enforcement is trained for that kind of stuff.

If I happen to be trespassing on a landowner's property while hunting (which has never happened, but I'm just saying) and the landowner came out to meet me with a gun, you can bet I would be seriously on edge about the entire meeting because I have no idea if the guy is a whack job or not. Now, if it is a uniformed officer, even with his/her weapon drawn, you can bet I'll be laying down my gun.

I just do not understand why people want to trespass just to go hunting. It seems like an awful risk just to go hunting.

[Adam Helmer]

Swift,

I never "get in their face" when I tell them to leave my land. From a safe distance, and near good cover, I tell them to leave. If they then execute a fast draw, it will not be fast enough.

Also, the nearby state police have never responded to my calls to evict tresspassers and the Game Wardens DO not enforce tresspass laws in PA. This is a rural county and tresspassers are NOT a law enforcement priority.

Adam

[fabsroman]

Swift,

I never "get in their face" when I tell them to leave my land. From a safe distance, and near good cover, I tell them to leave. If they then execute a fast draw, it will not be fast enough.

Also, the nearby state police have never responded to my calls to evict tresspassers and the Game Wardens DO not enforce tresspass laws in PA. This is a rural county and tresspassers are NOT a law enforcement priority.

Adam

What would you do then if somebody refused to leave?

That sucks that law enforcement does not enforce trespass laws. I would write them a letter to let them know about the situation, that you have to confront these people yourself, and that bad things could happen. At least that puts them on notice should something bad actually happen and they not respond to your call about the trespass. The game wardens should really enforce that matter.

[Adam Helmer]

fabsroman,

Excellent questions.

Most PA residents who are "First Time Callers" are stunned to find out the PA Wildlife Conservation Officers DO NOT enforce tresspass laws in PA! It is a "No-Brainer for the "bunny cops" to enforce the game/tresspass laws, but they are not invloved for whatever damn reason. As for "What if they don't leave?", I was on my cell phone during the last tresspass incident talking to the SP dispatcher who advised me, "We have no officers to send to your farm." I told him that I knew the call was recorded and my request for assistance was DENIED. I did not have the ability to write a letter at that point. I did have a Garand and gave CLEAR verbal instructions. Since I was out of their shotgun range, they got the "Message" without shots being fired.

If they refuse to leave, then it is their call and the only testimony will be mine. They have ABSOLUTELY NO STANDING and as armed alleged violators, they are the mopes UPPING the ante and I will CALL on my land. I do remind them there is 13,000+/- acres of State Game Land just North of my farm on the next hill. I have not had a person refuse to leave yet. I suspect it is my natural good nature.

Adam

[skeeter@ccia.com]

A little from the original post..News media taking shots at both CCP and Hunting but they jump on that in any story. I just talked to someone that got a 16 pt ..told where got..I said that is posted there and only 1/2 mi from my house..said..yea but owner not live here and never cks..I still not go there..now on another place I hunt, I picked up trash, pop bottles but left all the deer carcas they left behind..slobs..and I know a guy interested in buying this land and hope he does..I hate posted property and even when not posted, ask..first of all maybe they are workin in the fields or have cows..good to know..I guess the fact I lost 13 hunt spots in one year that I hunted since 12 some due to progress but most just someone with more cash than I have and lots of these don't even hunt..that does leave the open areas covered in orange any given day..We have talked over the years on how long would it take before Pa gets like out west where you have to lease a hunt spot if you can even find one..that is when I quit my favorite sport.
Yes the Pgc not enforce tresspass..local issue and is unreal how only the law breakers are covered by laws..your hands are tied if you try to do things the legal way.. I also find it hard to believe there are people that know they are on private land and give owner a hard time about it..they are NOT HUNTERS..they are shooters..I hate poachers too and know of 2 this year..father/son..illegal buck and more doe than licensed..now how to prove it..I would have to spend more time in court than I have and they would prob get off anyhow..and this takes me to another item I am just gettin over..our legal system and government..wow..I never have seen a bigger bunch of idiots than I have in the past year..quick examp..permit needed..call person that does that..they fill out papers..hand it to their other hand.( they also dept that approves)...denied..said papers not filled out correct..had do over..meantime..waste a month..sorry..off base here but maybe in another post sometime..
Pete..thanks for the update on the issue in that neck of woods...we here in Wpa not hear of update..swept under table..but all want to know..Just hope all of you have a save hunt season what is left..Know I passed on bunch of doe but now wish not cause the winter blast is here..brrrr..and older I get more think of head south..is there anyplace free to hunt down there?