A 9mm as a CCW piece?

[Adam Helmer]

The guys at the local gun club and gun shop cannot accept the 9x19MM as a serious CCW arm. From 1989 until 1996 I carried a Glock M19 as a federal agent. I had 15 rounds in the mag, so the desired "One Shot Stop" may have needed Two or Three Rounds, But I was not buying the ammo, so who cares?

I still carry my Glock M19, a P-38 and a P-08 Luger alternately as a CCW arm along with a M1911A1 and a M65 .357 S&W as CCW pieces.

Even today, we hear "War Stories" out of Iraq about the 9mm shortcomings because the Military uses Ball ammo. There are some very good 9mm rounds available to CCW folks today. I load my 9mms RIGHT.

Who likes the 9mm for CCW?

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I have two 9mm carry pieces: a S&W M39 and a CZ75B. Both function flawlessly with HP ammo, and my carry ammo of choice these days is Speer GDHP in 124 grain persuasion.

....and technically, all my carry guns (semi autos) are "9mm" (in diameter, anyway;))....I also carry a .38 Super & a .380 ACP from time to time.

I have confidence in my ability to hit what I"m shooting at with my 9mms.....I have tried the .45 and didn't find it all that accurate or pleasant to shoot (to be fair, it most likely was the gun....a rental from a local gun shop).

I have also worked in E.R.s, ICUs and O.R.s, and can tell you that I have seen enough people hit with 'minimal' calibers that weren't going anywhere but a slab, and a few hit with larger calibers that made it.

Bullet placement & a good HP (of which there are now many) are key......

[buckhunter]

I do use a 9mm and for the most part feel OK with it. I would never carry one with ball ammo. For the most part it will kill but your liable to get shot while waiting for the assulant to expire.

If you carry with a good hollow point bullet you will be fine. Sure the 40 and the faithful 45 are better and if given the choice that would be mine but the 9mm with decent 124 or 115 gr hollow point bullet will save your butt.

[Adam Helmer]

buckhunter,

YES, and shoot two or three times at the Bad Guy. With a high capacity magazine, why would anyone shoot ONLY Once? I like the Winchester 115 grain Silvertips.

We had a training film, years ago, I showed at semi-annual firearms qualification. There were several scenarios where cops got whacked BECAUSE they shot a BG ONCE and expected to see the Hollywood version of a shootout.

I told my classes to "Shoot until the BG falls away from the front sight." It works!

Adam

[Rapier]

I am not a big 9mm Para fan but I know it for what it is and more importantly I know it for what it can be, in a full support chambered barrel and custom gun. What kind of carry gun a 9mm is has almost everything to do with the ammo.

I used a 9x19mm major, race gun, in IPSC for a few years, until the 9x19mm major factor was no longer allowed by IPSC regs. Never had a round blow, but a 9mm major factor gun is a very, very bad hombre. It is sorta like a 15 or 20 round 357 mag and it is no body's idea of "not sufficient."

So, you go from ridiculous to ridiculous with the 9mm, somewhere between is a decent round. If you carry a 9 just make darned sure you ammo is up to the task intended.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

I don't like the 9mm any more than I do the 38 for a ccw piece, I just don't. That being said it is alot better than a 380, or a big fat nothing.

My main problem with the 9mm stems from the fact that you can gently bump to the 40 S&W or the 357 sig and see a good deal more stopping power, or you can go all the way and go with a 45 and never have to worry about it again.

If I am buying a new ccw gun the 9mm aint it. If I am trying to use what I have on hand and its the choice bewteen an accurate and reliable 9mm, and any other caliber that isnt accurate or reliable then I am packing the 9mm.

me I tend to pack a 38 +P snub for light carry, and a 1911A1 milspec 45 acp for heavy carry.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

GOB

Not to start a turd flinging contest but look at the +38 and the 9mm with decent ammo.Ain't much difference. And yes I do agree the 45 is king.

If the 9 is good enought for the British SAS then its good enough for me. Just keep firing.

[GoodOlBoy]

no turd here buck, that was actually my point. I am carrying essentially the snubnose revolver version of the 9mm. I carry it because it is dead nuts accurate, and it dissapears in a pants pocket in the summer. In the winter when I arguably have more places to hide one I carry my 1911a1.

And the only reason the 9 is good enough for the british SAS is because the get pretty well unlimited ammo so they can blast all 15 rounds into somebody then reload four times before they even start to sweat. If all you are talking about is one bad guy that is all great and good, but if you are talking about multiple bad guys I want something that will drop them on the first shot then stay till the end of the picknic. I don't want to stand around plugging four holes into one before I go on to the next. Bad guys seem to be AWFULLY impatient about that sorta thing and never seem to want to wait on you. I am even now trying to find a place to get my blackhawk 45lc cut down to about a sheriffs model length, have the rear sights taken off and cut to a notch, then have a birdshead grip put on so I can carry it instead of the 38 in the summer. 6 shots of 45 colt is more than enough until you get to 7 bad guys, at which point you make your way to the car, pull out your 30-30 winchester and commence.

The only purpose in my 38 +p snub is to get me to where I have a bigger gun stashed.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

While I do appreciate these discussions, I think most of us would have to agree that this is mostly an exercise in 'mental masterbation'. Darn few of us have ever been in a gunfight, let alone multiple gunfights which would qualify us as 'experts'. Let's face it.....most of us get our information from the internet & gun magazines, and let's just say that this is less than nonbiased writing. There is also a lot of hogwash out there.....for example, the idea that the 9mm was developed because it would only 'wound' people, requiring more men being tied up taking care of casualties. What a load of crap! If I'm being shot at, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop shooting back to take care of a wounded comrade! And more importantly, wounded soldiers can and WILL shoot back!!!!!
I am also not impressed with the drivel that came out in the 80's regarding the myth of the "one shot stop"......if the .45 is so great, then why was the .357 magnum loaded with 125 grn JHPs the one with the best 'record' of one shot stops? And I do believe that most criminals will turn tail and run at the sight of a gun being pointed at them, not 'stand and fight'.....by the very nature of being criminals, they are cowards as well. They produce a gun to terrorize people; I am producing one to KILL THEM!! They don't practice on the range......I do. They don't do testing in various media to find what works for them......I do.

Bottom line is that I have confidence in my abilities, my firearm, and my ammo.......and I think that has more credence in a gunfight than the caliber I'm carrying.

There may have been some merit to the argument that the 45 was better than the 9mm when the two were compared years ago on a FMJ to FMJ basis, but we have come on such a long road since that time..................

If you don't like the 9, then fine......but I'm willing to bet that I will do just as well with my 9 as you will with your 40, 45, .38, bazooka, or whatever when the chips are down.

[GoodOlBoy]

You can believe or not believe in the 'one shot stop' if you want to, but that is the entire reason why most Texas peace officers have abandoned the 9mm altogether. It isn't a myth it's a fact. The reason the 357 magnum with 125 grain hps has such a good record is because #1 it works. It has ALOT more knockdown and stopping power than a 9mm or 38 special. One thing interesting is a fully bloomed 357 mag hp is very close to .450 in diameter. . . . well isnt that intersting thats a 45. . . . The reason 45s dont always have a good reputation is that many people load them with cheap ball ammo that will punch through, but down't have the energy transfer of a good hp. It just doesn't. And the "80's" myth started during the jungle island wars when 38's wouldn't stop the doped up tribesmen in the philippines from killing a soldier after he plugged him five or six times, but amazingly 45s did. . . I would take a 44 over the 9mm any day as well (mag or special).

As for comparing fmj to fmj and hp to hp. The 40 S&W the 357 sig, and the 45 acp all beat the 9mm in that straight comparrison. The 9mm beats the 380. The 380 beats the 25 auto. In revolvers the 357 mag beats the 38 special (even the +p) The 44 mag and the 45 longcolt beat the 357 mag, and the 454 casull or 50 alaskan beats the 44 mag and 45 colt. This is with factory loads naturally. I have 45 colt hunting loads that beat the bejeebers out of any factory 44 mag or 454 casull out there. I don't use them for self defense unless I have no choice in the matter because they are handloads and that opens a whole nother leagal can of worms.

By the way I don't know of anybody who carries fmj in there ccw gun. Even in 9mm or 45 auto its a bad idea because you can get such a pass through that you can damage other people and property in a gunfight. Most of us carry hps. I am sure there are exceptions.

Talk about an argument not havint merit and being "mental masterbation". You get the idea that none of us have been in gunfights. Take a look at the number of Law Enforcement and Exmilitary on this sight and you will find out just how wrong you are. I am not going to carry an inferior round if I have a superior one no matter how much somebody else hails it as the great blue wonder. Period.

You get a chip on your shoulder about your 9 its not my problem. I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my 38 (which matches your 9 ballistics and I only carry it because it is a double action snubbie) or my 45s. You don't believe in one shot drops I hope for your sake you never run into a gunfight with somebody who does.

Also if you read you will see where I already admitted I would rather have a accurate 9 that an inferior round to it or nothing at all, but then again people who just want to fly off the handle rarely do read the whole message.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

By the way one other thing I should mention. This was started as a ccw thread and why people are against 9mm. I said I don't personally like it, I am not against it. If I KNEW I was going to a gunfight I am not carrying a pistol I am carrying a rifle. It was asked why people don't consider it a "Serious" ccw piece. I never said I didn't consider is serious. In point of fact I don't want to be shot at by a 22 (And yes have had that happen too) much less a 9mm, 45, 500 S&W, or 20mm belt fed machine gun.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

You get a chip on your shoulder about your 9 its not my problem.

No chip on my shoulder, GOB.....sorry if my post came off that way.:(

Texas LEOs may carry 45s, but most of the nation doesn't....they carry 9s or 40s.

If I was an LEO, and had my choice, I would carry a 4" .357 mag revolver with adj. sights. I remember back in the late 80's reading articles in Time and other 'news' magazines how LEOs were supposedly 'outgunned' because the bad guys had high capacity handguns and the LEOs 'only' had 6 shot revolvers.
Now most LE agencies have gone to automatics since then, and a host of problems have come with it: accidental shootings, charges of too much deadly force (:confused:), bullet pass throughs, ect, ect, ect. There is one video on youtube where a female officer has an accidental discharge while her partner is cuffing a suspect on the ground.
We also have all seen the bank robbery shoot out in LA a few years back when the bad guys had body armor & full auto AKs......again, the cry went up (esp. from the antigun crowd) that the police were undergunned because they felt the need to go to gun shops and get AR15s. I guess I'm a little confused, because I've been told that LAPD carries rifled slugs for their shotguns, so why didn't they load up with slugs and try and take out the bgs with a head shot?

I guess the point I'm trying to make (and trying to make in my original post) is that too much emphasis is being focused on equipment (caliber, ammo, ect) and not enough on 'intangibles' such as mind set.

.....and I've heard the stories about the moros in the Phillipines as well. If the pistols didn't stop the MOros, then why did the Krag rifles do the job? Why didn't they break out a host of 1873 Springfields in .45-70? That would have done the job a lot better (if bigger is better). Fact of the matter is: NOBODY reading these posts was there, so nobody can say for sure why the .38s didn't work, but the 45s did. Could it have been another reason (bullet design, for example)? The fact is that people who are using the Moro example are using anecdotal evidence to prove their point. It's like saying that if I take a frog and tell him to jump, and he jumps, and I then take said frog and cut off his legs and tell him to jump, and he doesn't, then I conclude that by cutting off a frogs legs, it makes him deaf. If I can't go back and retest the situation, you can't prove me wrong (or right).
As far as the .357 mag expanding to .45 cal.....My .38 specials in my 2" Detective special expand to 60-62 caliber.....does this make my lowly .38 special 30-33% 'better' than your .45? Of course it doesn't......but based on the data alone (anecdotal), you would have to say so.

Anyway, I didn't mean to start a pissing contest here, so I will sign off on this thread (at least for the time being).......enjoy your .45!:)

[GoodOlBoy]

Don't get me wrong I dont want you to sign off og the thread, and I appologize that I misenturpreted your post. Most Texas Leo's right now (except the rangers who DO carry 45s) are carrying 40s or 357 sigs. The 357 sig is winning by leaps and bounds. Understand that most departments will not allow revolvers, otherwise I am with you I would carry a good double action, probably a gp100 357 mag.

Mind set is incredibly important, but since the question was posted by Adam who I don't know personally but I am convince has an incredibly good grasp on mind set and tactics I ignored the mind set side entirely. Once skill and mind set has been defined, fixed an put aside all that is left is equipment.

That being said I don't know the entire reason behind why rifles where not pulled out in the case of the moros (glad you knew the reference). Again if I KNOW I am headed to a gunfight a rifle will be my primary.

The other issue is anecdotal evidence. When you get down to it what else is there? No machine no matter what anybody says will respond like a live human being shot. It just doesn't You gather data, you make a guess, you go from there. In the end the "field test" is in the field when you shoot a bad guy and see whether or not he takes the gun away and beats you to death with it or dies quickly in which case you go home to your family.

My ultimately prefered ccw gun is a Marlin 336 in 30-30 winchester. Unfortunantly it doesn't fit in my pocket like my 38 does.

GoodOlBoy

[8X56MS]

Lets see now, I have two BHP in 9MM, a nice little CZ 75D PCR, a couple of different Berettas and a S&W J frame in 9MM I am very comfortable carrying any of them.

[skeet]

Been around a few in my time..involved and after the fact. In almost all the after the fact ones..there were quite a few rounds expended and very little bullet wound damage. Gunfights are usually close encounters where everybody wants to be a long way from each other..therefore there is a lot of missing. One comes to mind right off the bat. 31 rounds fired by the 2 two gun toters. Range was Bar Box pool table range..say 8-9 ft. Only person hit was a guy trying to get away from the flying lead and got hit in the right hand goin around a corner.. Po-Lice never did catch the 2 shooters who took it on the lam..surprisingly in the same direction at the same time. Moral of the story is you are trying to find a place to hide from the flying lead even while you are shooting it. Not conducive to good accuracy btw. To be very honest carrying a gun is an act that tends to make us feel better..while at the same time we hope we never have to use it. Most CCW encounters are ended when the CCW holder pulls the gun. Happened 2 times for me with no shots fired..one dropped his piece and took off. It was a real junker Lorcin anyway. Went into a dumpster.. Another dropped his knife so quick it wasn't funny..he accosted 8 of us after leaving the theater(Watched 42nd Street). Wanted money and jewelry. I didn't even pull the gun..just showed it and he was gone. The matrons in the vicinity were shocked..and happy I had the piece.. I just got out of town in a hurry. Talking to the law about carrying a gun(in Md anyway) is not a fun thing. Gunfights are scary things. Most people hit in altercations of that type are usually bystanders cause the shooters are shuckin and jivin looking for a place to hide. Me too. But if I have to carry something..even a 25 is better'n rocks or fists...or a knife. I'll still choose to carry something bigger than a 9 which is usually a 45. My preference. For the average Joe...which includes most of us..including lawmen..lack of fear is the only thing that keeps us standing up there letting people shoot at us...and there aren't many with that lack of the fear of death. Not me...and not y'all either.

As for the Moro's..check it out.. There was a real reason they were not stopped by small rounds. They were drugged, already in extreme pain(according to what I have read) and were very slight people. Rifles were very unwieldy at distances of mere feet too. Rifle rounds went straight on through especially rounds not well aimed. These encounters happened at mere feet too ya know! Oh and look at the 38 Colt round. Anemic is an understatement. Makes the 9mm look like a real winner

OOne last thing..we had a hijacking attempt of an aircraft one day..One of the police officers attempted to shoot the main gear of a 727 with Round Nose 38 Specials. Actually bounced off the tires..all 6 times. One round with a 357 did each tire in. True story..I was there.

[wrenchman]

I have read threw these posts and i would have to say it is what they can shoot well.
I have a 9 and a 45 it helps that there is cheep amo for the 9 for practaceing.
Both my sons love to shoot the 9 and they can shoot it well.
The other thing is a 45 even a compact is not light my cousin has a kimber compact and it is not light so he dont carry it often.
It is no good if the gun is at home when you need it.

[popplecop]

Well for CC I have an old Cold LW Commander .45 and 2 Para Carry 9s, but in hot weather don't do me a lot of good. So I have an AMT Back Up .380 which is stainless steel, that wasn't bad. Now I just got a Ruger LCP 380 and love it, could hide it in a jockstrap, but with me that would be a very, very ugly sight. If you can't carry concealed with out printing carry open or find a suitable pistol to carry concealed. I'll get flamed for the use of a .380, but 30 years in law enforcement taught me bullet placement. I'd carry my old Commander all the time if practical but let's face it it's not.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I'll get flamed for the use of a .380, but 30 years in law enforcement taught me bullet placement.

I sometimes carry a Walther PPk/s in .380 during the summer months, stocked with Speer GDHPs:D

[GoodOlBoy]

You won't get flamed from me for carrying a 380 if that is what you have to use no. But If I had another choice I wouldn't carry it. And I am VERY careful about bullet placement. 35 years of being a military brat and a hunting redneck has also taught me bullet placement, particularly since I grew up raised by men and women who lived through the great depression and used mostly old 22s, 22 shorts, and 32-20s to put deer meat (amongst others) on the table their whole lives. If I had a choice in the matter (and I do) I wouldn't carry it myself, but that is my choice. I am currently looking to aquire a taurus tracker in 45 colt so I can let me wife pack the 38 +p.

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

Set out to carry what you will carry and practice with the gun. Practice, practice, practice. The old hands know that but the new guys need to understand that a good man (a man who will use the gun and knows how)with a little gun is a bad dude. Do not mistake the gun making up for lack of, on the part of the man behind the trigger.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

You got that right Ed. The biggest baddest bore in the world won't help if you can't make the gun function because you panic, and it also won't help if you can't hit what you are aiming at.

GoodOlBoy

[Adam Helmer]

Rapier,

I agree with you; folks need to practice a lot and then a lot more!

About two years ago a neighbor asked for advice for a CCW piece. I talked him (A novice) into buying a S&W M10 .38 Special. The guy got his permit and bought the gun and came by my home. He asked, "Can I buy .38 ammo in less than case lots?" I said, "Sure, a case is 1,000 rounds and a few boxes should do you just fine." He said, "No, I just want to buy 6 rounds."

I told him he needed to function test his gun, get used to the recoil and see where it hits for him. He balked and wanted me to sell him 6 rounds, ONLY! Go Figure?????

Adam

[popplecop]

First of all we are talking about concealed carry and controllablity. My favorite is my old Colt LW Commander in .45acp, for me it's not a practical carry in hot weather, note I said for me. My next choice is my Parra PDA in 9mm, and really hot days or quick grab for the store is my Ruger LCP in .380 acp. Now I do have an old S&W model 36 I also like and carried for years. I've been retired 22 years from law enforcement and was a firearms traing officer for the State of Wisconsin, all wheel guns then. I myself have tried some of the small .45acps and .40 S&Ws, I've come across some contolabilty issues and functioning problems that I have not found with my 3 choices. My 2 cents that due to inflation is worth a plugged nickel.

[GoodOlBoy]

Popplecop you bring up a fine point of order here. I pack all stainless guns for ccw. In Texas with 120f+ and 60%+ humidity you carry stainless or you clean it daily.

GoodOlBoy

[wrenchman]

No flame here 16 gauge i carry a 9x18 mark and i can hit with it some hornady rounds or a good bullit you should be good

[popplecop]

Good ol Boy, I personally prefer blue steel and wipe down daily. But have to admitt it just an old prejudice from an old man. I personally wouldn't carry any handgun that I've not shot a mininum of 200 rounds through regardless of caliber. Another thing a lot of nay sayers on calibers have not kept up on new ammo types available to the shooting public, I say that and my favorite .45 acp is 230 ball ammo, but it is what I started with back in the 50s. 9mm and .380 acp ammo has advanced dramatically.

[GoodOlBoy]

I agree about rounds through a ccw piece Popplecop. If you haven't put at least 200 rounds through it how do you know it won't fail when you need it? I carry Stainless (mat stainless, not shiny) because I am a fat fat man in a hot hot state. In the summer if I am outside alot (and I usually am) I have the sweat niagra falls going on.

Yep ammo has come up alot, and so have guns (to an extent most of the improvements ever tried to be made to 1911a1s were not improvements.)

GoodOlBoy

[kt]

hey guys while we are on the topic, i work with a game warden who loves his 45s. i always have to suffer a story about some cops or agents who shot some guy who was hopped up on pcp with 9mm's. 40 rounds went down range before the guy was stopped. any one know where i could find this story and get the truth?
thanks
kt

[skeet]

Good grief..I hear those stories too. You have to understand though..the BG didn't take all 40 rounds. He mighta been on PCP..but they were hopped up on something almost as potent..Adrenaline. Having seen some of this stuff in the past the story isn't too far from true...from time to time. PCP is a very potent drug and can make a person capable of really amazing feats. I had a guy posey strapped to a guerney once Narcan'd him and he literally broke both straps...grabbed my partner and that's when I hit him with the trunchion the cop threw in the back door of the ambulance. Ya know the cops shot a guy with a toy pistol(orange plastic thingie on the end and all) in the edge of my woods..41 rounds expended(all by the PO-leece of course) I must say they did well as they hit him 16 times..at a max distance of 20 ft...min distance was 4 ft. Cops are not always the most accurate shooters out there ya know..but you or I probably wouldn't be..in the same circumstances.. Again..that said..big holes are much better than small ones. You really can't refute the laws of physics...no matter how many say it ain't true

[Rapier]

KT,
There is a very famous event that you can find data on I am sure, involving Jeff Cooper in Africa back years ago (a little social business) where he came upon a large BG that decided old Jeff should cease breathing early and starts towards Jeff. So Jeff whipps out his BHP and whack, no effect, whack, no effect. This goes on until they hit the ground, BG with hands around Jeff's throat, rolling around on ground. Jeff sticks muzzle in BG's ear and pulls trigger, game over. As I recall the BG was high on drugs. This situation was the reason Jeff Cooper became a 45 ACP "preacher."

The Mosambique (sp) Drill: three targets, you stand back to, you turn and put two in chest and one in head as fast as possible on all three targets. It is named for the event involving Jeff Cooper.
Ed

[popplecop]

There are a number of things in the human body chemistry that effects how it reacts to different things. One thing that has been my observation is that at close range 2 center of mass and 1 head shot is probably going to be successful 99.4% of the time, just like Ivory soap. Am from the old school which we taught 1 center of mass and 1 head shot, not saying that 2 center of mass is better. Teaching methods like ammo developement have improved over the years.

[skeet]

Over the years in the fire dept I actually dealt with approx a dozen police involved (finished for lack of a better word)shootings. Surprizingly even though it was taught for lo these many years...I never saw a one shot or two shot center of mass/one head shot. not by a cop..not by a bad guy either. I kinda did see a couple in VietNam...but onea those guys was a really scary dude. I kinda wonder if he ever ...ah..assimilated back in the general population Another really scary thought..maybe he did...and we didn't notice

[GoodOlBoy]

Remeber too that police officers train just like most other people on paper that is not shooting back. When you get to train with simunitions or the like you get more of a feel for it, and despite the fact that it is paint pellets loaded over powder instead of lead you get a good idea of a portion of what it feels like to be in a firefight. Despite the "friendly" training nature of it your hands shake, weapons jam, and you see just how much EVERYBODY can miss when they are shaken up. One in the head, one in the chest, all works good if you can keep your brains together long enough to do it. Afterwards you can fall apart. Fall apart before or during and you are in trouble.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

Once while bow hunting well before 1st light about 10 coyotes lit it up with 100 yards from where I was. I got so nervous I couldn't even get an arrow in the string. I thought to myself, man your in deep dodo if they get close. Well they didn't and I suppose it was a good thing.

Remember as a kid how you felt before you got in a fight with someone then think out about a gun fight. I used to get pretty stressed when the NVA got close and believe me they did. Close enough I was afarid to soil my pants cause they would smell it.

I do not believe there is a man alive that would be cool and calm when the lead starts flying.

[skeet]

Remeber too that police officers train just like most other people on paper that is not shooting back. When you get to train with simunitions or the like you get more of a feel for it, and despite the fact that it is paint pellets loaded over powder instead of lead you get a good idea of a portion of what it feels like to be in a firefight. Despite the "friendly" training nature of it your hands shake, weapons jam, and you see just how much EVERYBODY can miss when they are shaken up. One in the head, one in the chest, all works good if you can keep your brains together long enough to do it. Afterwards you can fall apart. Fall apart before or during and you are in trouble.

GoodOlBoy

Kinda what I was trying to say GOB without maybe causing hard feelings. Seriously the only double taps and head shots I ever saw were in VN..and as I said those dudes were scary. Not many people even with all the training can keep their wits about 'em when them little lead things are flying around. Scared the snot outta me I can tell ya. I woulda been lookin for a place to hide but usually in an airplane...which wasn't too scary till you could hear the little lead thingies makin holes in your Big Aluminum thingie...and the only thing you could do was put distance tween you and the BGs. From all the shootings I have seen most of the hits by either side seemed to be by chance..till the training kicked in with some of the LEOs and don't take it wrong but in at least 2 observed fights the BGs side seemed to not be shootin back..Takes a lot off'n yer mind...but those scary dudes in VN...They were either crazy or trained to not fear...well... the fear of death

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh I ain't tryin to hurt no feelings. I don't mean it thataway. But it's danged easy for a man to get puffed up in his own mind about what it is he's a gonna do in a gunfight. After awhile he talks himself into believing all the movies, tv shows, and "combat" trainers. There's a old saying in prize fighting. "Everybody has a plan till he gets hit." Never was that more true than in a gunfight. Everybody has a plan till the first bark, spit, spurt, and roar of a firearm starts. Then you would do real real good to keep your head down and count your toes. A ccw weapon is not a gun you pack to give you a chance IN a fight. It is a gun you pack to give you a chance to get OUT of a fight.

Thats my 2 cents. No offense ment to anybody.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

A ccw weapon is not a gun you pack to give you a chance IN a fight. It is a gun you pack to give you a chance to get OUT of a fight.

GoodOlBoy

GOB..you only forgot one word in that last statement...right at the end you should have put the word...ALIVE

And I didn't mean to imply you were meaning to offend anyone..I know better

[popplecop]

Not going to get into a disagreement over training, but one is supposed to react as trained with thought, The new simulators that have come out since my retirement 22 years ago. But repetetive training does work, been there done that.

[GoodOlBoy]

Training is good and great, but I watched several dozen cops fall apart despite decades of training when they were put up against "a stupid untrained civillian" that actually knew more about guns and shooting than they did. They fell apart so badly that two of them said "I saw the gun as he reached for it/pulled it and I knew I was dead" so they didn't do anything, just stood there and took the shots in the chest. Good thing for them it was paint not lead. One of them retired two weeks later after 28+ years as a LEO. The only two who DIDN'T fall apart was one younger LEO with about 6 years under his belt (he started right after high school), he did everything by the book and came out with a single graze to the arm. The other was a Sgt with 16+ years under his belt. He would have been seriously wounded (if not dead) from the torso shot, BUT he put four rounds in the chest of the "bad guy" (good grouping too). Everybody else to a man (and several women) was toast. Out of hundreds of rounds fired by LEOs that day only nine total rounds hit the bad guy. Only five of those would have been fatal. Of the dozens of rounds fired by the bad guy that day there were no misses, three that would have been serious wounds, and seven that would have given the officers a 50/50 shot at survival with good medical help. The rest would have been fatal.

Training works, but ONLY if you take it seriously, and keep it up. When a trained person goes through training, gets the job, then stops doing anything but going on patrol and drinking coffee for years on end?

Some people are untrainable. Some trainers are useless. Some people train once and figure they are the best they will ever be, or figure they don't need more training. All these situations can be fatal if things go bad.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Well GOB you may be right..but there is one saving grace in all this mess..The BGs are as rattled as many of the leos are..so most of their shots go astray also.. If not we'd have lots more cops dead on the street. One thing we really don't need. Cops have a tendency to become a little more focused when they lose one of their own. Proddy might be a better word..Been there...Seen that

[GoodOlBoy]

Let me add an adendum here. I know many LEOs personally, and I hope I never have to attend another funeral for one I know. If I were a LEO and my job was going out in the world each day to face God knows what then I would want all the training I could get, I would want it from the best, and I would want to keep it up. I would spend time at the range at least once a month (Most LEOs I know only hit the range once a year to qualify and keep their only firearm locked in a locker at work). And rather than being arogant about my abilities I would WANT to find out where I was lacking and work on it.

Sadly that is not the way most LEOs I have ever met think. In point of fact most good old regular LEOs I have met sneer at the idea. Most SWAT LEOs I know think that way, but they are SWAT. You hafta be two thirds outa the norm to be SWAT anyway (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh I would agree Skeet. 99% of BGs are going to have to get lucky (unfortunantly some of them are VERY lucky) to get the drop on a LEO with any experience. That 1% is the bear to deal with though.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Most SWAT LEOs I know think that way, but they are SWAT. You hafta be two thirds outa the norm to be SWAT anyway (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

GoodOlBoy
Yeah ya do GOB..Swat guys are all half crazy to begin with..unless they are picked for it without volunteering. Some are in it that way. Sadly some are in it for the thrill of Victory..and never see the Agony of Defeat - right around the corner. Also sadly I know an awful lot of cops..and seriously... about a third do the job for the "thrill" of being in charge..they actually enjoy using their power. One knows he is better than the "public" he is entrusted to help protect. He is also on a regional Swat team..Luckily he is back in Maryland..not too far from Fab's area.. Very close in fact. :rolleyes:

[popplecop]

LEOs that train only once a year are on a department with poor leadership or no leadership. Chiefs always whine about budgets and probably couldn't qualify themselves. Let me tell you one law suit wether won or lost would pay for a lot of training. Leaveing your firearm in your locker if you don't have another one, shows me the person should look for a new career. I served as a firearms training officer for the last `15 years of my career and was on the training comm. for all training. My wants in the Army and as a LEO were the same a qualified well trained person next to me when the crap hit the fan and thankfully it did on all occassions.

[skeet]

I did a lot of training myself. Always liked to have a person next to me I had trained..Knew what to expect out of 'em.. We weren't training against other people..fire and it's environs..Still pretty dangerous..

[popplecop]

Sure agree with you Skeet, and fire is very dangerous. Always admired fire fighters, did some forest fire work when I was young, found out fire was not my calling. My dad was Ass't. Chief of our local VFD where I grew up, and they did a lot of training way back then.

[skeet]

Learned a long time ago that I didn't need to fight forest fires. Couple of guys from the dept were talked into it..One told me he thought he was gonna die fighting a fire somewhere in SD I think..he said the mountains there were a LOT different than the ones in Maryland.. I tried to tell 'em that before they signed up. He didn't think the fire was gonna get him either..it was the terrain and altitude..He lived at 90 ft altitude..What are the Black Hills?? Gummit tried to recruit me to train in Saudi Arabia too.. Tax free etc etc etc..Big bucks too. I actually knew better..especially when the gummit tries to recruit ya.. I have an acquaintance who is now training the troops in Afghanistan I think in urban police work..He was enticed by the dark side.... of too much money and no tax

[Gil Martin]

I have several 9mm handguns and do carry them from time to time. All the best...
Gil

[popplecop]

Gil, do you have one you prefer over the other or not?

["yote"]

My Glock 26 is stuffed with 10rds Federal 9mm 115gr HP +P+ @1300fps. I'm not too worried about getting the job done.