3,500 Acres of US unsafe for US Citizens

[Rapier]

"About 3,500 acres of southern Arizona have been closed off to U.S. citizens due to increased violence at the U.S.-Mexico border, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The closed off area includes part of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge that stretches along the U.S.-Mexico border."
Fox News

Excuse me, but the US government can not secure its borders and has blocked US Citizens access to part of the United states, allowing Mexican criminals to take over 3,500 acres of our contry? FTF, Over!

O'Bama just pack your bag buddy you are outa here. This is way too much. The cops asked for 3,000 troops to bring the area under control, got nada.

[PJgunner]

I wonder? :confused: Why does our government REFUSE to do nything about the border situation? That JACHASS in the White House can send the national Guard to Iraq, Afghanistan, the gulf coast yet that igmoramous completely ignores the border where at least one American CITIZEN has been murdered in a way that made national headlines. The fact of the matter is there have been others murdered by parties unknown over the years. I know of at least three, two of which were bowhunters during bow season for deer. The third person was the boss of my next door neighbor. I should say four because both he and his wife were found shot to death in their tent while camping. Their truck was later found across the border in Mexico. According to my neighbor, the man and his wife were good people. Makes me wonder just how many people that have gone missing and never found in the remote parts of Arizona, New Mexico and Texas deserts were murder victims of the smugglers. This crap is nothing new. My neighbor's boss and hs wife were killed back in IIRC 1982, give or take a year.
I personally have been shot at while peacably fishing on Pena Blanca lake which is about two miles from the Mexican Border. That was over 6 years ago. That stuff is nothing new although lately it seems to have escalated exponentially.
I wouldn't be too surprised if some individuals weren't planning to take matters into their own hands to clean up the mess. Of course, if that were to happen, Obama and the liberals woild send the ntional Guard down in one hell of a hurry, not to protect the border but to round up all those "racists' shooting those poor drug smugglers who are only trying to make a living. :rolleyes::mad:
I can no longer go deer or coyote hunting in a couple of my favorite areas (#32 and #33)without worrying whether I might be murdered in my sleep. I'm pizzed!:mad:
Paul B.

[Rapier]

Paul,
The minute I read that I thought about you.

I mean this is just stupid beyond words. What do you think would happen if Teddy R were in the White house now? There would be dead bad guys strung out all over Ariziona and Mexico.

Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

Eventually it will come down to people. People, no politicians, built this country. People, not police, protect themselves and their loved ones. People, not words laws and platitudes, will eventually take this country back.

GoodOlBoy

[bulletpusher]

AMEN!

Dad

[multibeard]

Eventually it will come down to people. People, no politicians, built this country. People, not police, protect themselves and their loved ones. People, not words laws and platitudes, will eventually take this country back.

GoodOlBoy

If the idiot voters don't forget by November and vote back in the idiots that have been running this country. There will not be a single incumbent getting my vote either in the primaries or Nov election.

Rapier. We all know what would happen if old Teddy was in charge. It would get taken care of. It would get taken care of now with a lot of volunteers from all over the country with out nobama having to send any troops.

[skeet]

.

Rapier. We all know what would happen if old Teddy was in charge. It would get taken care of. It would get taken care of now with a lot of volunteers from all over the country with out nobama having to send any troops.[/QUOTE]

I'll volunteer!!

[GoodOlBoy]

Don't forget one of the main reasons we are in this pickle is because oblamea is slick. Remeber we had record turn outs of first time minority voters, first time young voters, and first time immigrant voters. I heard with my own ears the bs slogans they were passing even in Texas. One moron in particular stood outside the local wal-mart screaming "We are going to vote Bush out of office! No third term for Bush!" No matter how many times somebody tried to calmly tell this joker Presidents can't serve more than two terms he would go back to screaming the same thing over and over. He was getting very low income and low education minorities and imigrants, and first time young voters to sign up to vote democrate. By the way the ones that wanted to sign up to vote but told him they were voting against obama got turned away. It was a minor scandal at best.

Slick is as slick does.

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

This is going to sound far fetched to you, but the real change occours at your city and county levels. Do not just vote for people that other keep picking for you to vote for. Go find a good man or woman, talk to them, get them to run for election and support them with your time and effort, not just a check. Get the lawyers and professional politicians out of our city halls, county commission and state houses. Put real people back in office. Never vote for a lawyer for any office, unless you have to, they are professional liars.

Yes vote for the best people come this November, but do not let this stop there. We need to clean house, we need to scrub the floors with lye soap to get the stench out, starting with our own community! Your neighbors are begging for real people to elect and so are you, go find them yourself.
Ed

[Larryjk]

Recently Public Radio reported that Obma is sending 17,000 national guard troops to help clean up the beaches affected by the oil spill. He could only send 1200 to help secure the border. Lets you know that he feels the border situation is not really a problem; it is just a few americans being killed by who knows what. Maybe it is some of the missing Afgani pilot trainees.

[PJgunner]

I live fairly close to the border as you all know and I have Border patrol buddies I sometimes shoot with. What they tell me is frightening. In the last 6 months, they have apprehended over 200 non-Latino types from the Middle East. :eek: Makes you wonder how many got through? A Latino pays roughly $2,500 to $3,000 to be smuggled in while these Middle Easterners are paying from $6,500 to $10,000 to get into the U.S. of A. Of course, I'm sure those peace loving Middle Easterners are only here to earn a better living that what they could back home. Right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Now, I see that the HAG Clinton let the cat out of the bag that Obama and crew are going to sue Arizona to stop 1070B. So much for states rights. I wonder if out communist-in-chief is going to send her to Siberia, or at lest it's equivilent here?
When do WE THE PEOPLE take our country back?
Can WE THE PEOPLE take our counrty back?
Do THEY THE SHEEPLE even give a damn?
Methinks it's getting close to Concord at the border.
Paul B.

[Seawolf1090]

A REAL President would immediately stage a military operation in that chunk of forest, with fully armed troops, 'weapons hot' and full air support including gunships. ANYBODY in there shoots back, they get 'lit up'! All others get moved back to Old Mehico pronto, after being 'chipped' - found here again, it's ten years HARD LABOR in prison.

But our sorry excuse of an Illegal Kenyan in office does not have the brass to DO HIS JOB!! :mad:

[skeeter@ccia.com]

I think people will renege next election. Bet $ on it.

[fabsroman]

This is going to sound far fetched to you, but the real change occours at your city and county levels. Do not just vote for people that other keep picking for you to vote for. Go find a good man or woman, talk to them, get them to run for election and support them with your time and effort, not just a check. Get the lawyers and professional politicians out of our city halls, county commission and state houses. Put real people back in office. Never vote for a lawyer for any office, unless you have to, they are professional liars.

Yes vote for the best people come this November, but do not let this stop there. We need to clean house, we need to scrub the floors with lye soap to get the stench out, starting with our own community! Your neighbors are begging for real people to elect and so are you, go find them yourself.
Ed

I think you need to stop with the "lawyers are professional liars" BS. Most of my clients want me to run for office because they know I am a no BS kind of person with morals and values.

I can say the same thing for most of the professions out there. Most people in society are freaking liars. I wonder how many people actually get stopped by the police and answer all the questions truthfully or decline to answer questions because they do not want to lie and incriminate themselves.

Yeah, it is only the attorneys. More like the attorney's clients that are the liars. I have had clients lie on the stand and I have had witnesses and opposing parties lie on the stand. But hey, the lack or honesty and responsibility issue is an attorney issue, not a society issue.

Ultimately, attorneys advise their clients on what the law is and what the clients' options are. It is up to the clients to decide what action they want to take.

[fabsroman]

"About 3,500 acres of southern Arizona have been closed off to U.S. citizens due to increased violence at the U.S.-Mexico border, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The closed off area includes part of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge that stretches along the U.S.-Mexico border."
Fox News

Excuse me, but the US government can not secure its borders and has blocked US Citizens access to part of the United states, allowing Mexican criminals to take over 3,500 acres of our contry? FTF, Over!

O'Bama just pack your bag buddy you are outa here. This is way too much. The cops asked for 3,000 troops to bring the area under control, got nada.

The President's position is this:

He will not do anything to secure the border so he can keep the heat on the Republicans about passing some reasonable legislation to allow for some immigrants to stay here. In other words, Obama is alright with closing down the borders IF the Republicans are alright with passing something meaningful regarding the immigrants that are here right now.

Personally, I think we need to do both. Shore up the borders and pass some reasonable immigration regulation for those that are currently here illegally. When I mean reasonable, I mean that those here illegally can stay if they have no criminal history here for 5+ years, they pay an estimated income and FICA/Medicare tax of $3,000 for the past 5 years they were here (before you get your panties in a bunch realize that a married couple with 2 kids pay NO income tax on their first $46,000 of income. They only pay FICA/Medicare on that money to the tune of 7.65% which equates to $3,500), and some other requirements which escape me right now.

I am pretty sure that immigration to this country was a lot easier back in the 40's and 50's. Why do we have to make it so hard for good people to come to this country? Not every illegal is a terrible person.

[skeet]

I am pretty sure that immigration to this country was a lot easier back in the 40's and 50's. Why do we have to make it so hard for good people to come to this country? Not every illegal is a terrible person.

Fabs you are right that it was a bit easier in the 40's and 50s..There is however a BIG but..Actually 2 very BIG buts. 1st Those same people that wanted to come here did it LEGALLY. You are a Lawyer. You certainly KNOW the difference. If those people who came here illegally get off scott free..what is to stop the illegal flow?? Sheesh..We have to have SOME teeth in our laws..It seems however that the liberal left in this country would sell their souls for these "new" votes. Heck the Republicans would too. I have an even better idea..Round 'em all up..tax 'em on past work..send 'em home keeping a data base on when they came and give them a first chance to come back..after the background checks and making certain they have PAID those same back taxes.. Heck it was sure easy for 'em to send the money back to Mexico..or wherever they came from..But make 'em understand. there is no get outta jail free card. Then we need to have an English language law and enforce it..Lets do the legal immigration law like Mexico..Never being able to vote..unless a person was born here after parents legal immigration..
2nd Since those people's who came here in the 40s and 50s the legislators in this country have seen fit to drive our job base off shore. What an idiotic idea..So we should restrict the amount of people who come here to those who will fill an existing job..Especially for people who come to stay..We surely do NOT need to create an even larger burden on society than we already have. At the same time we should also strive to reduce the dependency on the public monies by people who a are already citizens..and make those same monies unavailable to new members coming into this country...otherwise we are letting welfare receipients immigrate to this country. Stupidity to say the least.

Let the dissing begin:D

[fabsroman]

Fabs you are right that it was a bit easier in the 40's and 50s..There is however a BIG but..Actually 2 very BIG buts. 1st Those same people that wanted to come here did it LEGALLY. You are a Lawyer. You certainly KNOW the difference. If those people who came here illegally get off scott free..what is to stop the illegal flow?? Sheesh..We have to have SOME teeth in our laws..It seems however that the liberal left in this country would sell their souls for these "new" votes. Heck the Republicans would too. I have an even better idea..Round 'em all up..tax 'em on past work..send 'em home keeping a data base on when they came and give them a first chance to come back..after the background checks and making certain they have PAID those same back taxes.. Heck it was sure easy for 'em to send the money back to Mexico..or wherever they came from..But make 'em understand. there is no get outta jail free card. Then we need to have an English language law and enforce it..Lets do the legal immigration law like Mexico..Never being able to vote..unless a person was born here after parents legal immigration..
2nd Since those people's who came here in the 40s and 50s the legislators in this country have seen fit to drive our job base off shore. What an idiotic idea..So we should restrict the amount of people who come here to those who will fill an existing job..Especially for people who come to stay..We surely do NOT need to create an even larger burden on society than we already have. At the same time we should also strive to reduce the dependency on the public monies by people who a are already citizens..and make those same monies unavailable to new members coming into this country...otherwise we are letting welfare receipients immigrate to this country. Stupidity to say the least.

Let the dissing begin:D

I am a realist and not an idealist. I think charging these people $3,000 per year for 5 years and having a clean record for 5 years of being here will be penalty enough. Now, I am not saying this will be an ongoing thing. What I am saying is to have a window to allow people that have been here for 5+ years to apply to become legal. I have a client that is married to an American client of mine. She is the nicest woman in the world and doesn't even work. However, she isn't legal because her visa expired. Cracking down on everybody is a bunch of BS.

Now, telling these people that they will be deported will just send them further into hiding and make it that much more difficult to send them back. Are you willing to have your taxes raised to provide INS with the equipment and manpower to accomplish this Herculean goal of sending these people back. I already know the answer to that one, HELL NO, because that is how us conservatives view government. We want it smaller, but we want them to take care of this border problem with more manpower and equipment.

As far as the politicians shifting jobs overseas, we can agree to disagree on that one. I think we as a society shifted jobs overseas once we figured out we could buy an imported product for less than a Made in the US product. Yeah, the politicians helped, but there were plenty of others that helped too (e.g., unions, employees, consumers).

I'm pretty much not onboard with not being able to vote here "unless a person was born here after parents legal immigration". Essentially, that would leave people like my parents unable to vote after the legally immigrated here in the 50's, learned the language, became citizens, worked for 50+ years, and paid taxes for the same amount of time.

As far as Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and other welfare type programs for the illegals, how do they actually apply for this stuff? Plus, what makes you think that ALL illegals are dirt poor? I know several that have a good amount of money. Granted, they probably did not pay any taxes on it, but they have it nonetheless.

Ultimately, I am looking for a middle ground on this entire issue so that we can actually get something done, instead of the BS that we have had over the past 10 years regarding this subject and a plethora of other subjects. Seems like neither side wants to compromise on much, so we are stuck with getting nothing done. How has that been working for us? I'm guessing not too well.

[skeet]

I
Ultimately, attorneys advise their clients on what the law is and what the clients' options are. It is up to the clients to decide what action they want to take.

Well Fabs..first I do want to say..I know you and I know you are an honest and moral person. This is not a personal attack on you and I hope you know it. We had ol OJ running around the street after Cochran got him off. It may not be for a lawyer to lie...and you know they do as do the clients..their job is to muddy the waters..create an illusion that may or may not be. In your chosen line of law..tax stuff I guess you'd say..LAWYERS have written the law so that only lawyers can understand it. We NEED y'all..and lawyers made that possible.. Personally don't you think that writing laws that pertain to their business is just a little crooked?? Shouldn't they excuse themselves from the vote and political arm twisting on such laws?? Do they not understand Conflict of Interest? Just a few things..But I do understand the statement about professional liars..It ain't just in the courtroom. And yep...I know people who would lie when the truth would do..And they ain't necessarily lawyers. Not dissing you my friend..but don't let things like that statement bother you. In some cases it's true..and in some such as yours it isn't. I hate to resort to using an attorney..it means in some way I have failed in my job of keeping my nose clean.. then I have to resort to trusting some other person with a portion of my personal life..Hate that whan it happens

[fabsroman]

Well Fabs..first I do want to say..I know you and I know you are an honest and moral person. This is not a personal attack on you and I hope you know it. We had ol OJ running around the street after Cochran got him off. It may not be for a lawyer to lie...and you know they do as do the clients..their job is to muddy the waters..create an illusion that may or may not be. In your chosen line of law..tax stuff I guess you'd say..LAWYERS have written the law so that only lawyers can understand it. We NEED y'all..and lawyers made that possible.. Personally don't you think that writing laws that pertain to their business is just a little crooked?? Shouldn't they excuse themselves from the vote and political arm twisting on such laws?? Do they not understand Conflict of Interest? Just a few things..But I do understand the statement about professional liars..It ain't just in the courtroom. And yep...I know people who would lie when the truth would do..And they ain't necessarily lawyers. Not dissing you my friend..but don't let things like that statement bother you. In some cases it's true..and in some such as yours it isn't. I hate to resort to using an attorney..it means in some way I have failed in my job of keeping my nose clean.. then I have to resort to trusting some other person with a portion of my personal life..Hate that whan it happens

I'm not losing too much sleep over it tonight, or any other night for that matter.

Under your reasoning, ANY lawyer elected to ANY legislative position would have a potential conflict of interest because WHATEVER law gets passed needs to be interpreted, applied, and possibly litigated. You used tax law as an example, but what about criminal laws, construction laws, patent laws, copyright laws, etc. They are all LAWS that lawyers deal with daily.

Then, even assuming that we do away with lawyers in legislatures, what are we going to do with elected law enforcement officers, elected construciton workers, etc. when their field comes up? What about the issue of electing older folks since we have an issue with health care and social security. Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest for them too? What happens if we elect a bunch of young people that decide to do away with social security because they will never receive it, isn't that a conflict of interest too.

Ultimately, our politicians should do what we the people want them to do, regardless of the conflict. I don't think Congress wants to make the tax code any more onerous than it is, but it just isn't easy to cut it down right now without going to a straight flat tax and that would only last a year before special exceptions are applied to provide incentive to do things like save for retirement, purchase a home, make homes more energy efficient, etc.

Plus, how would a bunch of construction workers even pass laws? They can hardly read the current laws as it is. Who would draft up the new laws for them. Don't tell me they would need to hire attorneys to draft those new laws and put their ideas into legal statutes.

Now, as far as feeling like you didn't keep your nose clean because you need the services of a lawyer, that just isn't always true. Just recently, I have had a couple of clients pass away without wills, and the assets didn't go quite the way the surviving spouse had thought they would. Yeah, they kept their nose clean during their lifetime until one of them passed away. Then, without having received any advice from an attorney during their lifetime, the surviving spouse is up a creek with a dirty nose that he/she didn't receive from an attorney. Same goes for start up businesses. How smart is it to start a business without getting the advise of an attorney? I'm not saying it should never be done, but before taking out a 2nd mortgage on a home to start this business, don't you think a little legal advise might be in order. Think of it like preventative medicine.

[skeet]

They came here illegally..your parents didn't..Why should illegals have the vote?? Even if they are made legal..And it seems as though you don't get it..It's a point to be made..it ain't just dollars and cents..I'm sorry the immigrant issue is so close to you..but legal and illegal are two different things. If they are well to do what are they wanting to come here for?? Why reward illegal activity..There are hundreds of thousands of people who try to get here legally and we are going to reward illegals?? Fabs..you just don't get it. I hate to disillusion you so badly..but sometimes the issues should only be black and white with NO gray areas.. But gray areas are an attorney's life blood and I know it as well as you do..so you will always try to skirt the black/ white and get gray. As far as Obama's policies..With the way he has tried to sell this country down the river..I will never compromise with him or his policies. I don't know how any true America citizen ever could.

And as far as your next post cause I know it'll be there... I don't think any attorney should ever vote for or against a law that may affect his future work. We had many legislators in the past who were not attorneys and they helped write some of the laws of this land. Don't forget just because a person is a butcher baker candlestick maker...doesn't necessarily mean he is an idiot..It seems as though that being an attorney is on the job training for legislator/Polictician NOW..all that being said..GO TO BED..its 2 in the mornin...there. That's where I'm goin and it's only midnight here.

[fabsroman]

They came here illegally..your parents didn't..Why should illegals have the vote?? Even if they are made legal..And it seems as though you don't get it..It's a point to be made..it ain't just dollars and cents..I'm sorry the immigrant issue is so close to you..but legal and illegal are two different things. If they are well to do what are they wanting to come here for?? Why reward illegal activity..There are hundreds of thousands of people who try to get here legally and we are going to reward illegals?? Fabs..you just don't get it. I hate to disillusion you so badly..but sometimes the issues should only be black and white with NO gray areas.. But gray areas are an attorney's life blood and I know it as well as you do..so you will always try to skirt the black/ white and get gray. As far as Obama's policies..With the way he has tried to sell this country down the river..I will never compromise with him or his policies. I don't know how any true America citizen ever could.

And as far as your next post cause I know it'll be there... I don't think any attorney should ever vote for or against a law that may affect his future work. We had many legislators in the past who were not attorneys and they helped write some of the laws of this land. Don't forget just because a person is a butcher baker candlestick maker...doesn't necessarily mean he is an idiot..It seems as though that being an attorney is on the job training for legislator/Polictician NOW..all that being said..GO TO BED..its 2 in the mornin...there. That's where I'm goin and it's only midnight here.

I'm still working. Lately, I have been working until 3:00 in the morning a lot. Can't complain though because I am having a pretty good year money wise.

Anyway, I will agree about the voting issue, until they become citizens. However, I don't think non-citizens can vote anyway. The part that you are not getting, is that the penalty to apply for the permanent visa is $15,000 in "back taxes". They aren't getting a free lunch, it will cost them $15,000 and a clean criminal record to become legal.

The other part you are not getting is that there is NO way you are going to round all these people up that are currently in the US and deport them. Common sense should tell you that. We have enough problems with criminals already that we cannot put through the system and house in jail, that we really do not need to spend additional money on enforcing our immigration laws on people that have been here for 5+ years and caused no trouble.

Now, after we allow this amnesty program for a year, we really crack down. We tighten up things on the border, require local police to contact INS when they arrest somebody that does not have a green card, and we deport them. The good immigrants will come out and apply to be legal, the bad ones will eventually be rounded up and deported as they hit the system.

Trust me, I'm not trying to make this a gray area. Thing is, in your utopian world we would be able to push a button and teleport these people back to Mexico. We aren't there yet, so it would take a ton of money/effort to get the job done, and who is willing to pay for that? I asked this in an earlier post, ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY MORE IN TAXES to deport 11 million+ illegals and lock down the borders. If you aren't, then you aren't really willing to support what you want. Who knows, with the additional tax revenue from the good portion of the illegals, we might be able to afford to get rid of the bad ones.

The reason this is a gray issue is because it isn't easy to 1) deport them all or 2) legalize them all. There are way too many issues, and to view it as a black and white area is to be naive, or to think like a liberal with rose colored glasses on thinking that we can easily deport all 11 million + illegal immigrants. Again, I am looking at it as a realist, not an idealist dreaming of my own version of utopia.

I would love to see the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation that gets the job done that they want to get done. Keep in mind, 100 years ago things were a lot simpler than they were now, so the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker didn't really have to worry too much about things. Start talking about derivative investments and other complex issues, and we will see how the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation on their own. I'm sure the attorneys would have a field day with a lot of it, on one side or the other, and there would be plenty of loopholes in the laws that the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker never thought were there.

Back to work I go.

[skeet]

[QUOTE=fabsroman;336587]
Anyway, I will agree about the voting issue, until they become citizens. However, I don't think non-citizens can vote anyway. The part that you are not getting, is that the penalty to apply for the permanent visa is $15,000 in "back taxes". They aren't getting a free lunch, it will cost them $15,000 and a clean criminal record to become legal.

Well if they aren't gettin a free lunch it is surely close to it And you know the politicians will make the sdame excuses as you do and just give 'em the vote because it's only fair..Fabs..15 million votes is a BIG incentive to half crooked politicians.

The other part you are not getting is that there is NO way you are going to round all these people up that are currently in the US and deport them. Common sense should tell you that. We have enough problems with criminals already that we cannot put through the system and house in jail, that we really do not need to spend additional money on enforcing our immigration laws on people that have been here for 5+ years and caused no trouble.


Again..If ya can't catch 'em and send 'em back to where they came from..how ya gonna tax 'em??..Fabs...it makes no sense.. And as far as making no trouble..what part of ILLEGAL don't you get?? Rewarding people with permanent status just mkes no sense. At one time when our forefathers came here they came for many reasons..religious freedom freedom from retribution from their own governments where they came from..They also came for economic freedoms and relief from ultra high taxes and the government taking all from the working so that unproductives could live too. Why are we changing it here to those conditions..The great experiment..All those European countries ahve already tried and failed in that experiment..now they also have those same legal and illegal immigrant problems..Look at France..and other countries. Reward illegal activity with good actions and the only thing you will receive is more illegal activity. Makin 'em "pay" just doesn't cut it when as you said..you can't catch 'em anyway. Your idea about the money payment is novel...but misguided. As I said..it ain't just money..



Now, after we allow this amnesty program for a year, we really crack down. We tighten up things on the border, require local police to contact INS when they arrest somebody that does not have a green card, and we deport them. The good immigrants will come out and apply to be legal, the bad ones will eventually be rounded up and deported as they hit the system.

You've already answered that one yourself..criminals are very hard to catch..The Gestapo didn't get'r'done..How will the INS?? Sheesh!

Trust me, I'm not trying to make this a gray area. Thing is, in your utopian world we would be able to push a button and teleport these people back to Mexico. We aren't there yet, so it would take a ton of money/effort to get the job done, and who is willing to pay for that? I asked this in an earlier post, ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY MORE IN TAXES to deport 11 million+ illegals and lock down the borders. If you aren't, then you aren't really willing to support what you want. Who knows, with the additional tax revenue from the good portion of the illegals, we might be able to afford to get rid of the bad ones.

Personally I'm willing to spend the money. I think in the end we would have a net gain in the economic situation. You haven't really looked at the cost of illegal immigration. Just check tyhe cost to San Diego county in California..

The reason this is a gray issue is because it isn't easy to 1) deport them all or 2) legalize them all. There are way too many issues, and to view it as a black and white area is to be naive, or to think like a liberal with rose colored glasses on thinking that we can easily deport all 11 million + illegal immigrants. Again, I am looking at it as a realist, not an idealist dreaming of my own version of utopia.

Sorry Fabs..but you do have a utopian dream.. I never said it would be easy to deport all 15 million(insert next weeks number) illegals. What good public work is ever easy.. You think it is just an econmic issue and it isn't.. well maybe it is. The 2nd World War turned into an economic issue..why not this.. Allowing these people who have come here illegally to scoff at our laws and be rewarded for it is just wrong..Just Black and White.. Trying to say that it isn't and ignoring that fact is also wrong. Just by saying they've been here a5 yrs and didn't create any problems doesn't make it no longer an issue. Those people for 5 yrs have helped to rob the economy of the US by sending large portions of their income out of the country and into other countries..not good for our economy for certain.

I would love to see the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation that gets the job done that they want to get done. Keep in mind, 100 years ago things were a lot simpler than they were now, so the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker didn't really have to worry too much about things. Start talking about derivative investments and other complex issues, and we will see how the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation on their own. I'm sure the attorneys would have a field day with a lot of it, on one side or the other, and there would be plenty of loopholes in the laws that the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker never thought were there.


That last was written like a TRUE attorney..Loopholes!!. Lawyers have been writing legal loopholes for a couple hundred years...And you would accuse the B.B and CSM of doing it inadvertantly??..surely couldn't be any worse than we have now. That is truly an laughable statement. I have tears runnin outta my eyes while I'm typing this. You are without a doubt a hoot my friend. Fabs..there really is a time when we have to consider the illegal problem as a Black/White issue...and it has become that way now..with he idiots we have in power in this country..

[Larryjk]

Skeet, The money to deport illegals could come from the programs they take advantage of that cost states like California or Arizona BILLIONS of dollars each year. Keeping the freeloaders here isn't free by a long shot. My ancestors were immigrants to this country. They came here legally and didn't fear "the man". If you are here legally you really don't sweat it if someone asks you for documents to prove you are legal. I have to "show papers" for all kinds of activities I get involved in. It is cheaper to kick someone back across the border OR OCEAN than to keep them here on our tab. FABS should understand this. Sometimes it is more expensive in the short run to stand on principles.

[skeet]

Skeet, The money to deport illegals could come from the programs they take advantage of that cost states like California or Arizona BILLIONS of dollars each year. Keeping the freeloaders here isn't free by a long shot. My ancestors were immigrants to this country. They came here legally and didn't fear "the man". If you are here legally you really don't sweat it if someone asks you for documents to prove you are legal. I have to "show papers" for all kinds of activities I get involved in. It is cheaper to kick someone back across the border OR OCEAN than to keep them here on our tab. FABS should understand this. Sometimes it is more expensive in the short run to stand on principles.

Larry I guess we look at it through Rose colored glasses..But the truth is still the truth..They have broken OUR laws and we should reward them?? I don't think so..Fabs does..don't forget there will be attorney's coming out of the woodworks to defend these illegals actions. Think of this..who is gonna make the money on the illegals tax debts?? Who's gonna pay for the illegals attorneys to fight this tax mess. We the good and ready taxpayers..Not the illegals.. They will have a fixed penalty to pay.. As I said..Check the cost of Illegal immigration to just the County of San Diego...and multiply the cost nationwide..It is a horrendous figure..and yo and I are paying the costs. Illegal?? Yep they are...and they should be deported. Letme have the power to order it..As you said..bet the country would SAVE money...Here's a few other things. If they want to come and work legally..20 dollars a month back home would be a limit. Heck what's the limit you can send out of the country legally without reporting it. And the gummit would blast you for trying to take too much out! Time to stop this insanity.. Women running across the border and having kids?? They(the children) would NOT be citizens..and legally I don't think they are now. Fabs may try to prove other wise..but look at the original immigration laws. Think of how much money the women receive in aid to dependant children.. Do I feel bad for the kids..Not really.. I know it isn't their fault but what their mothers do to get the money is actually illegal..WTF..and we give it to 'em?? No sense whtsoever. Ameriacans always worry about the kids..BUT they are ILLEGAL...and what the mother does to try to make them legal is also illegal..fraud at the least. Sorry..I'm not an attorney and don't think like one, thank goodness. Yes Virginia..there is Black and White out there with no hint of gray at the very least in my eyes.. And I truly do think that I am a middle of the road American.. Not a communist like the people we have in charge right now..Not a liberal and only a mildly conservative person on most issues. On some issues I am just to the right of Ghengis Khan..

[fabsroman]

[QUOTE=fabsroman;336587]
Anyway, I will agree about the voting issue, until they become citizens. However, I don't think non-citizens can vote anyway. The part that you are not getting, is that the penalty to apply for the permanent visa is $15,000 in "back taxes". They aren't getting a free lunch, it will cost them $15,000 and a clean criminal record to become legal.

Well if they aren't gettin a free lunch it is surely close to it And you know the politicians will make the sdame excuses as you do and just give 'em the vote because it's only fair..Fabs..15 million votes is a BIG incentive to half crooked politicians.

The other part you are not getting is that there is NO way you are going to round all these people up that are currently in the US and deport them. Common sense should tell you that. We have enough problems with criminals already that we cannot put through the system and house in jail, that we really do not need to spend additional money on enforcing our immigration laws on people that have been here for 5+ years and caused no trouble.


Again..If ya can't catch 'em and send 'em back to where they came from..how ya gonna tax 'em??..Fabs...it makes no sense.. And as far as making no trouble..what part of ILLEGAL don't you get?? Rewarding people with permanent status just mkes no sense. At one time when our forefathers came here they came for many reasons..religious freedom freedom from retribution from their own governments where they came from..They also came for economic freedoms and relief from ultra high taxes and the government taking all from the working so that unproductives could live too. Why are we changing it here to those conditions..The great experiment..All those European countries ahve already tried and failed in that experiment..now they also have those same legal and illegal immigrant problems..Look at France..and other countries. Reward illegal activity with good actions and the only thing you will receive is more illegal activity. Makin 'em "pay" just doesn't cut it when as you said..you can't catch 'em anyway. Your idea about the money payment is novel...but misguided. As I said..it ain't just money..



Now, after we allow this amnesty program for a year, we really crack down. We tighten up things on the border, require local police to contact INS when they arrest somebody that does not have a green card, and we deport them. The good immigrants will come out and apply to be legal, the bad ones will eventually be rounded up and deported as they hit the system.

You've already answered that one yourself..criminals are very hard to catch..The Gestapo didn't get'r'done..How will the INS?? Sheesh!

Trust me, I'm not trying to make this a gray area. Thing is, in your utopian world we would be able to push a button and teleport these people back to Mexico. We aren't there yet, so it would take a ton of money/effort to get the job done, and who is willing to pay for that? I asked this in an earlier post, ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY MORE IN TAXES to deport 11 million+ illegals and lock down the borders. If you aren't, then you aren't really willing to support what you want. Who knows, with the additional tax revenue from the good portion of the illegals, we might be able to afford to get rid of the bad ones.

Personally I'm willing to spend the money. I think in the end we would have a net gain in the economic situation. You haven't really looked at the cost of illegal immigration. Just check tyhe cost to San Diego county in California..

The reason this is a gray issue is because it isn't easy to 1) deport them all or 2) legalize them all. There are way too many issues, and to view it as a black and white area is to be naive, or to think like a liberal with rose colored glasses on thinking that we can easily deport all 11 million + illegal immigrants. Again, I am looking at it as a realist, not an idealist dreaming of my own version of utopia.

Sorry Fabs..but you do have a utopian dream.. I never said it would be easy to deport all 15 million(insert next weeks number) illegals. What good public work is ever easy.. You think it is just an econmic issue and it isn't.. well maybe it is. The 2nd World War turned into an economic issue..why not this.. Allowing these people who have come here illegally to scoff at our laws and be rewarded for it is just wrong..Just Black and White.. Trying to say that it isn't and ignoring that fact is also wrong. Just by saying they've been here a5 yrs and didn't create any problems doesn't make it no longer an issue. Those people for 5 yrs have helped to rob the economy of the US by sending large portions of their income out of the country and into other countries..not good for our economy for certain.

I would love to see the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation that gets the job done that they want to get done. Keep in mind, 100 years ago things were a lot simpler than they were now, so the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker didn't really have to worry too much about things. Start talking about derivative investments and other complex issues, and we will see how the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation on their own. I'm sure the attorneys would have a field day with a lot of it, on one side or the other, and there would be plenty of loopholes in the laws that the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker never thought were there.


That last was written like a TRUE attorney..Loopholes!!. Lawyers have been writing legal loopholes for a couple hundred years...And you would accuse the B.B and CSM of doing it inadvertantly??..surely couldn't be any worse than we have now. That is truly an laughable statement. I have tears runnin outta my eyes while I'm typing this. You are without a doubt a hoot my friend. Fabs..there really is a time when we have to consider the illegal problem as a Black/White issue...and it has become that way now..with he idiots we have in power in this country..

You know what is really hilarious, posting on this board about anything political that is not far right wing leaning. That is what is hilarious. On another board I frequent, a cycling board, they consider me a hard right winger. Honestly, I think I should run for office. I would probably satisfy 80% of the voting public out there, just not the hard left or the hard right. Maybe call my party the "Party of Common Sense".

You take issue with these people sending money out of the country to help their family back in their homeland. So what, I am pretty sure that on any given day American citizens send more money overseas buying imported goods. Take an honest look at the clothing you are wearing and tell me where they are made. Right now, I am wearing Carhart jeans made in Mexico with American fabric, Columbia hiking boots made in Malaysia, and a polo t-shirt made in Honduras with American fabric. That is the best I could do and I try to buy American.

As far as I am concerned, fighting illegal immigration is like fighting the war on drugs and the war on terrorism. It is a losing battle. So, provide a means to get the good people into the system and have them start paying into the system. Then, they will no longer be a burden on society, but contributors instead.

As far as getting the good ones to step forward, it is pretty simple with the amnesty program. Essentially, it gives them a means to become a citizen.

Now, if we aren't going to find a way to allow these people to become citizens and we really want to crack down on illegal immigration, just pass a $50,000 fine MINIMUM per illegal worker hired by anybody an enforce the heck out of it. Of course, the Repulicans aren't too keen on shutting down entire companies by fining them so heavily.

Then, there is the increased cost of housing, groceries, etc. where illegals are usually found working. That is another factor.

Almost nothing is black and white today, as much as you would like to think it is. Try raising the cost of clothing, food, and new homes for this nation right now, and you will really see us hit a recession, if not depression. My wife and I went to look at a new home the other day, and it was running $800,000. Meanwhile, comparable pre-owned homes in the area were running about $600,000 to $650,000. Try raising the cost to build that new home and see how the new home builders do over the next couple of years, along with the construction industry.

Again, nothing is as simple as "let's just invade Afghanistan and Iraq and kick the crap out of the terrorists" or "let's just deport all the illegals currently in this country even though we have no idea how many there are, what it will cost, or how it will truely affect the economy".

You can continue to think it is black and white, but it isn't. In a simple world, maybe, where right and wrong are the only thing that matter. In our current complicated world, it isn't black and white.

[skeet]

[QUOTE=skeet;336590]


You can continue to think it is black and white, but it isn't. In a simple world, maybe, where right and wrong are the only thing that matter. In our current complicated world, it isn't black and white.

One of my key points Fabs..the world is complicated...but why..we have people who write laws that complicate them more all the time. Look at the tax code..Something even a Philadelphia lawyer might not even appreciate. You deal with it all the time. It is your lifeblood..and as you said in a previous post..you're doing good this year..Most of us aren't and you want us to appreciate what you do. We have to.. So you do good. Now wouldn't it be a much better tax code if you just paid lets say 5% of your income in Tax..no complications..everybody pays the same percentage and everyone should be happy...except you! No work.. And we have legislators and LOBBYISTS( many of whom are also attorneys) who do that to us everyday..in every way imaginable..And we must ask for it..cause we keep electing these same, mostly attorneys, people year after year after year..No term limits..no recourse..they can keep the money they raise when they quit and then they give us a health care bill they don't read..and tell us we have to live with it..and at the same time...they don't have to. And you wonder why so many people don't like attorneys?? No you don't. I'm not lookin through the rose colored galasses here my friend. It seems I'm trying to not see through the glasses that the legislators say I MUST look through.. I know they aren't all attorneys..And I do understand that there are good people who are attorneys also..probably in the same ratio as the B, B and CSMs out thee..But from a non attorney perspective..wh is writing the rules??LOL. I doubt you can answer that from a non attorney perspective as you are one. I was raised to respect judges attorneys legislators and the myriad of people who were supposedly better educated..better informed an smarter? They were our watchdogs..But it turns out it just ain't so. I respect individuals now..people who I know care about the country and it's people. Few and far between now though. Please don't run for office..It's awful hard to not be seduced by, as in Star Wars,....the dark side. or in your case..the gray side...hehehehe

[popplecop]

Oh I hate to side with Fabs publically about members of the BAR. I've spent the last 50 some years around them and the vast and I do mean vast majority of lawyers are great people doing great work. Now I tend to lean toward the prosecuteing proffessionals a little heavier. Fabs, I enjoy good attorney jokes as do most lawyers I know do too, my only advise to you Fabs, stay out of politics. Now that being said Judgeships and DAs are good jobs.

[fabsroman]

Oh I hate to side with Fabs publically about members of the BAR. I've spent the last 50 some years around them and the vast and I do mean vast majority of lawyers are great people doing great work. Now I tend to lean toward the prosecuteing proffessionals a little heavier. Fabs, I enjoy good attorney jokes as do most lawyers I know do too, my only advise to you Fabs, stay out of politics. Now that being said Judgeships and DAs are good jobs.

I have zero intention of running for office. I just do not have the stomach for politics and all the BS that goes along with it.