Going bonkers over my 98

[jon lynn]

Okay experts, Jon needs help.

I took my newly built 98 to the range on this Veterans Day, and my first 3 shots were a true inch (Yay), about three inches high. The first shot was 1/2" above the 2nd & 3rd touching shots,

I did my eight clicks down to be an inch high at 100 yards.

I let the barrel cool for 20 minutes, and ran a wet brush, four dry patches (a nice tight Otis), and fired three more, and the group spread to almost 2"

A perfect triangle, around the bulls-eye.

WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?

[Larryjk]

(1) Check the scope mounts for loose screws.
(2) Make sure the action screws are tight.
(3) Is the scope a known quantity?
(4) Maybe you should just shoot the rifle more to make sure it is settled in the stock.
(5) Clean the barrel as in a breaking in sequence.
(6) Are you calling the shots?

[jon lynn]

Larryjk, here is what I did, or was done in reguard to your list. Please crituque and add to or take away:

Scope mounts were tightened and Lock-Tight applied when installed (Warne Maxima Weaver) style bases, but I did check them and they were still tight.

Action screws are tight as I dare for a Mauser, you know the lower assembly (trigger/magazine) with the guide screws.

Scope is a Burris Fullfield (older, not a "II") in Weaver Rings.

Please explain the 'settle in stock'

Now as for cleaning, I treat this as I do any new rifle, because what is the difference in a rifle purchased new, and a new barrel threaded on to an action? I myself, see no difference.

After every 3 round shot group, I clean the barrel using my Otis cable system, running the brush through five times with Break Free, then pull through the patches through until they come out clean.

I wait a minimum of 15 minutes between groups.

This rifle has had less than forty total rounds through it, and the groups are shrinking nicely. But when it starts off with a good grouping of three, then a spread in the next, after a cleaning, just makes me ........MAD!

How can the first three be so tight? What makes bullet number 4 through six be like teenagers (all over the place for no good reason)?

[Larryjk]

jon lynn, "settle in the stock". If the action wasn't glas bedded, it usually takes a "bunch" of shots for the stock to compress the wood behind the recoil lug to where the action is snug in the stock. If your groups are improving don't worryabout the first shot being in a different place. After 40 shots and cleaning the barrel often, you are getting close. Usually 50 shots is considered as break in for the barrel. What caliberis the rifle? I hate to say this but sometimes on a new rifle the shooter isn't used to the trigger or the feel of the gun and the first shot "gets away". Then you bear down and the rest go where you are aiming. I think you should just keep going since I think you are on the right track.

[Catfish]

You should have shot another group of 3 shot. Alot of guns group better after the barrel is fouled than they do with a clean barrel. Next time you shot a large group after cleaning shot another group without cleaning. That will tell you fast.

[jon lynn]

Larry,

the Mauser is a .308 with a 24" 1/10 twist. I am using 150 grain factory bullets.

Catfish,

I will fire more groups next time, doing the 'foul' shots.

But since my '06 is still dead on, I will use it Saturday, and zero the .308 after deer season.

Jon

[Larryjk]

jon lynn, You are telling me the gun is fine with a clean barrel for the first group and then things go south. Try this. Clean the barrel and then swab it out with acetone or some other de-greaser. Let it set for some time to get dry. Then watch the muzzle and down about 1 inch. Do that by using a q-tip to reflect the light into the barrel. What you should watch for are the green streaks of copper fouling. If you find them, keep cleaning until the copper is all gone. Try some of the foam cleaners, they do a good job. Just make sure the barrel is free of any oil if you want the copper cleaners to do a good job. Once the barrel is free of copper, stick with the three shot groups and clean until the barrel stays almost clean. Some barrels are harder to break in than others. If the barrel shoots good groups clean and then goes south, clean it again. Eventually you will win.

[Ridge Runner]

is break free a copper solvent? not sure, never used it. are your dry patches coming out blue?
my cleaning sequence
solvent on a bronze brush and scrub 10-12 strokes, let stand 10 min
solvent on a bronze brush and scrub 10-12 strokes, let stand 10 min
dry patch
wet patch
dry patch, dry patch, if there's any blue repeat the whole sequence
oily patch
foul before shooting.
I use a solvent with ammonia in it to cut the copper.
RR

[Jack]

Break Free is not a copper solvent.
Ridge Runner, by putting copper solvent on a bronze brush, you're guaranteeing you'll get a blue patch- from the solvent eating the bronze brush. There is no way to tell whether the blue on your patch comes from the brush, or copper in the bore.
I would suggest you apply solvent with patches or nylon brushes.
Nothing wrong with bronze brushes, IMO- I use them. Just don't use them in a bore wet with copper solvent.

[Ridge Runner]

thats why I use a dry and wet patch after the brush.
RR

[Seawolf1090]

The variance ain't that much - it's still a 'dead deer'......... ;)

[Larryjk]

jon lynn, Haven't heard anything for awhile. How is the break in going? I am wondering what brand of barrel you have. Some barrels are easier to break in than others. Generally, the "name brand" barrels will be easier to break in than others. If you are still haveing fouling it is because the barrel had more tooling marks than others. You might want to get JB Bore ccleaner and lap the hell out of the barrel with it. I don't want to suggest a more aggressive lapping compound because you might overdo the process and destroy some of the rifling. You can feel the tight spots where fouling is at and short stroke those areas to remove the fouling, but always end up by full length lapping to even out the bore.

[jon lynn]

Larry,

I've been hunting (with the MR7) for now. I'll hold off the range until after Thanksgiving, but I will keep y'all posted!

[Rapier]

"After every 3 round shot group, I clean the barrel using my Otis cable system, running the brush through five times with Break Free, then pull through the patches through until they come out clean."

Jon,
The military has Break Free everywhere. I wish I had a dollar for every young GI with "found" Break Free that showed up at my Rod and Gun Club range while I was the range master there. They could not hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle with their "cleaned" guns. You just got a lesson in Break Free in a bore, first hand. Bad news is this, I have seen it take many, many rounds to clear the effects. The crap will not come out any other way, but to shoot it out. It is a lubricant that contains a polymer and it coats the inside of a bore......it is not a bore solvent or a bore cleaner or a proper bore treatment, and never has been or will be. Put it all over your gun, drink it if you wish, but do not put it in the bore of a gun.

Go get a shotgun solvent that dissolves wad residue and scrub the pee out of your bore, it might help, that is might. Otherwise, shoot and scrub, shoot and scrub with Shooters Choice Copper Solvent, unitl the accuracy returns.
Ed

[PJgunner]

Let's look at this from another angle. Shoot your 3 shot group but don't clean the barrel. let cool as normal and shoot another 3 rounds. Some rifles shoot better with a fouled barrel. My custom .35 Whelen will shoot abut a 1.5" three shot group from a totally clean barrel. After cooling, the next and following groups will run from .50" to .75" as long as I do my part. Clean the barrel and groups open up again.
FWIW, I do not believe in that barrel break in BS. The late barrel maker gale McMillan would void the warranty on his barrels if the shooter did a break in process. He felt that all breaking in did was make a barrel wear out a little sooner. He felt that normal shooting would take care of any breaking in a barrel might need. I have five rifles with custom barrel. None have gone though any special breaking in and four of the five are sub-MOA and the one that is not has olny had maybe 40 rounds through it. It's a .308 BTW. Right now it's about a 1.15" shooter. I expect that will shrink down some.
Paul B.

[Larryjk]

PJgunner, I have one client who doesn't believe in cleaning his barrels. He also doesn't use the barrels I recommend. They cost approximately the same as what I recommend. I use what he wants to rebarrel his rifles. He has them rebarreled quite often and the ones I take off are usually badly fouled. A .257 Weatherby didn't last him a month. He gave the entire rifle to another client, who went through a 2 week process of cleaning all of the fouling from the area ahead of the throat. The rifle shot fine after that.

I am certainly in favor of Gail McMillan having whatever policy he wants on his barrels and can even understand . I do not advocate using course grit in a new barrel or some of the other crazy things people might use. But I will still say a properly broken in barrel, (by cleaning to bare metal between shots), will foul less and give better accuracy. I believe the old practice of firing a few "fouling" shots was more to re-acquaint the shooter with the recoil than of any real benefit to the barrel. If you feel breaking in a new barrel is Bull ****, more power to you on your rifles. I will still recommend the practice.

[Rapier]

Sorry I did not get back to this, as I was out shooting my new 300 Win Mag and breaking in the barrel, with my normal process. Nice results, cutting 1 1/2 inch limbs off at 200 meters when finished.

With all due respect to Gale, richly deserved respect, as a pioneer in many ways, from barrels, stocks to rifles, etc. Years ago I was present at the Shot Show, talking to a premier barrel maker about my barrel order, when that premier barrel maker was acosted by whom I remember to be Gale. Gale was hot for what Gale understood to be a derisive comment made regarding Gale's ability to build quality barrels. I will not get into the sides of the argument that ensued and only bring up the incident to point out that every maker has followers and every maker has detractors and all for various reasons.

I will explain to you why my break-in has no resembelance to what many consider a break-in of a barrel:
a) The break-in is done with a liquid which contains a polymer type material, that fills the pores, rather than filling the pores with guilded metal.
b) I never use any form of abrasive in a barrel, unless the barrel is very rough and I intend to shoot cast in it. The abrasive is applied by fire lapping. The process I use is that used by many cast bullet bench rest shooters and rimfire bench rest shooters. The cast bullet allows me to adjust the diameter after the bore has been altered to a mirror finish.
c) During the normal break-in period I do several things at the same time. I develop loads, fireform brass (using standard loads) and zero the scope plus get precise sight settings. Thus the break-in is not an abnormal wear on the barrel at any point.

When I finish with the break in, I have a bore that will clean with just a few patches and 99% of the time shoots the first round into the same group as the 3rd, 4th or 5th round. Cold barrel or hot, this is very important to me.

Here is why and how it makes a difference: When you hunt you shoot the first round from a cold barrel and many times that barrel is clean. If you shoot in competition in a hot climate, like Arizona or FL, you start with a cold barrel but after the 3rd or so shot, the barrel is hot to very hot. In match competition, consistancy is everything. I do not care where the bullet hits as long as it will hit at the same point every time, I can adjust sights.

I shoot silhouettes, rifle and handgun. A 40 round match is a local match and an 80 round match is the standard for national or international matches. I do not really hunt that mutch, but find that what works on the range works in the field with a few minor adjustments, like haveing a safety or an ejector and changing the trigger pull weight for field use.

It has long been established by and within, every orginized competition I know of, that precise accuracy and consistancy is only established when the bore is clean and cleaned as often as possible, even being cleaned during a match. Read carefully what Gale had to say about cleaning a bore and then consider this; A bore can not be cleaned during or after shooting, if it is not clean to start with, without stripping the bore back to bare metal.

What Larry has found is exactly what I found decades ago. I can take a "shot out" barrel and turn it into a shooter by stripping the copper out of it. Just one story, I bought an XP-100 in 7x08 from a shooter very cheep. I stripped the bore, it went back to shooting 1/2 inch groups and I refinished the gun, metal and stock. Then sold it back to the original owner after he saw how wonderful it shot at a match. After he paid me, I told him it was his old gun!:D That is a true story.
Best,
Ed

PS: I am not trying to change your mind, you have done what you do for decades as have I, but to make very sure the readers have an alternate point of view and proper explination for that view.

[PJgunner]

Breaking in a barrel is nothing more than controlled wear on the barrel to basically get the rough spots out. I don't see the need to do a barrel break in because when my gunsmith does a barrel for me, he laps it so it's already smooth and shiny. But, as the late great Elmer Keith once said, "I believe every man should scratch his own fleas in whatever manner he chooses.
Paul B.