Constitutional Carry

[skeet]

I would think not many people know but Wyoming is trying to pass a constitutional carry bill. Which means that like in only 3 or 4 states you can carry concealed weapons without a permit.. It has passed the State senate and is now in the house. It has another reading to go..passed the first one 48-8. If it gets passed it will allow people to carry concealed with out the usual permit process. It is legal to carry openly anyway.. but it is sometimes a little funny to see a person(not necessarily a man) wearing a gun in the open. It won't change the fact that you can't carry if you are not legally able to own a gun..and criminals will carry one anyway. Guess I'm just wondering..What do you all think of this development? I know some law enforcement types might not like it..but the police here don't seem for the most part to disagree with it. ..cept maybe the ones that belong to the Police Chiefs organization(IACP) which is anti gun anyway.. Speak up..tell us how you feel though.. I'm interested..But it's still a PITA to carry a gun.. LOL

[Larryjk]

I am not sure everyone should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm, but the people I am concerned about don't care about the law and now carry concealed without the bother of a permit. I had a need for a permit just so I wouldn't have a problem with the law when I was hunting. I would carry a pistol if I didn't have a rifle. If the weather was bad, the coat would cover the pistol. That was illegal, even though I had no intention of trying to conceal it from visual attentioon, but just to protect the weather from the elements. I was told by one sheriff his deputies would not bother me and I asked him to give me a letter stating that, but he said he couldn't do that. I don't like playing the game of jeopardy, so I needed the permit. Only the honest need apply.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I was in a similar situation as Larry.....at the time, MI basically only granted CCWs to specific people: law enforcement or those whose jobs required that they carry a lot of cash, go into dangerous areas, ect. They had a "hunting and target" permit, so I asked what that was for, and the powers that be stated "for hunting and target":rolleyes: (remember: this was back in the pre internet days).
So I called the local sheriff's dept, Michigan state police, and the police of the city I lived in at the time. One said I didn't need it, one said I absolutely had to have it, and another said that it depends........:(:rolleyes:

So I got the thing, just to be on the safe side. As far as being "permitted' to legally carry: I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of really stupid people out there. I've always maintained that there should be more to hunter safety than what there is, and after seeing a guy try and put shells in a pump shotgun backwards I certainly haven't changed my mind.

I think a permit system is not a bad idea in that A.) it requires the permit holder to take a class not only on safe gun handling, but what the LAW allows them to do and not do, and that can end up saving tax payers in the long run. B.) While issuance of a permit, in and of itself, doesn't negate criminal activity, I would think that if a LEO stopped someone for a traffic violation, and new ahead of time that said individual might be carrying (via computer), and the said individual stated immediately on contact with the LEO that he did, in fact, have a concealed pistol on him, that it might put said LEO at ease a bit that he was dealing with a decent, law abiding citizen.
Just thoughts off the top of my head.

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I support Constitutional Carry because that is what the Second Amendment is all about. In Vermont, any person, not prohibited, may carry a concealed handgun, "so long as they do it without criminal intent." That makes sense to me. ALL the Bad Guys are armed and CANNOT qualify for a permit, so let all the honest folks carry. I always carry when I visit Vermont.

Some folks say, "Not all folks should carry." I agree. NOT all folks should drive cars or breed, but what can be done to sort out the loonies? It really comes down to a Liberal versus Conservative view of society. I am talking honest (not prohibited) gun owners here. The Liberals think if they put in place ENOUGH Prior Restraints (like permits, FID Cards, etc.), they can PREVENT wrongdoing. ( This has not YET worked in Massachussets, New York, New Jersey or Washington D.C.). The Conservatives believe in Subsequent Punishments for wrongdoers. I say, let all honest gun owners carry if they desire. Punish any loonies and leave the rest of honest folks alone.

Adam

[buckhunter]

I could just immagine anyone trying to get this across in the Peoples Republic. You pull hens teeth to get a carry permit here.

[skeet]

I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of really stupid people out there. I've always maintained that there should be more to hunter safety than what there is, and after seeing a guy try and put shells in a pump shotgun backwards I certainly haven't changed my mind.

I think a permit system is not a bad idea in that A.) it requires the permit holder to take a class not only on safe gun handling, but what the LAW allows them to do and not do, and that can end up saving tax payers in the long run. B.) While issuance of a permit, in and of itself, doesn't negate criminal activity, I would think that if a LEO stopped someone for a traffic violation, and new ahead of time that said individual might be carrying (via computer), and the said individual stated immediately on contact with the LEO that he did, in fact, have a concealed pistol on him, that it might put said LEO at ease a bit that he was dealing with a decent, law abiding citizen.
Just thoughts off the top of my head.

As quoted above is the crux of the problem..here.. Some people think it is better if the gummit KNOWS what you are doing..yep..lots of stupid people..HONEST LAW ABIDING stupid people. Here in Wyoming now the police automatically assume you may have a gun Why should a cop fear a law abiding citizen and why should the police HAVE to know your personal business?? Criminals are by definition not law abiding and carry anyway..I seriously have a problem with the government knowing what I do with my life. I also have a real problem with the bureaucrats in this country knowing if I have a gun or not..Some states require the permit holder to give the state model and serial of the guns they may carry..Personally that is what I consider registration in a very strict sense. As Adam said there are more stupid people carrying a license for an even more dangerous weapon..a car. In this day and age where the government could do away with your right to own a firearm by signing a treaty..I trust the government less and less...and yes..fear it all the more

[Rapier]

Yep, a Constitutional Carry law would definitely be good and we, the good guys, can deal with the bad guys as we need to do so.

I do like our current restrictions here in FL, however, as to where you can not carry, municipal buildings, court, church, and in any establishment where they sell alcohol by the drink.
Ed

[skeet]

I remember wayyy back in the early 70's when i was up in Alaska. Was in a bar one afternoon..well it was a Lodge.. When ya went into a bar ya had to give the bartender yer gun.. Everybody did it..Got it back when ya left,,less'n you were to ...uhhh..drun...er... intoxicated to be trusted. Was only 4 of us in there plus the Btender..Really drunk uh..well..indian ..came in the door..Went to the bar..pulled out his gun and holy crap..all of a sudden it was just me the guy he had the gun pointed at and the indian...Told the fellow he was sittin in his seat..well..I kinda slowly slid off'n the stool and slipped around the corner of the bar..only to see the bartender whisperin into the phone.. wasn't more'n 2 minutes an Alaska State Trooper comes in the bar..and talked the drunk into givin up his gun. Cop was lookin for the drunk..Fellow behind the bar told me after he was gone that the guy just got belligerant when he was adrinkin....I will say though that the guy who had the gun pointed at him..was ready for the men's room.. There are restricted areas in Wyoming too. probably a good thing. I do know quite a few who go to church ...well armed. But they are always well armed for the most part.. BTW the gun the drunk indian was carrying was an early Flattop Ruger 44 mag. I saw that in the first 20 seconds. It's amazing what your mind picks up..under stress.

Gotta tell ya..a Lodge in Alaska(this one was called Clear Sky Lodge) is a whole lotta things.. They had a bar(local watering hole) restaurant small grocery store..sold guns ammo and knives auto gas and aviation gas(strip in the back) as well as a small assortment of groceries..I wasn't just sittin in there getting snockered ya know..In my defense..I waited till that night to get snockered

[Rapier]

Unfortunately, there are perfectly resonable and sane folks that under the influence can change, like flipping a light switch. I thought I had just about see all the drunk situations after riding on Friday and Saturday nights with a deputy for three years, but the night a good friend, in my home, flipped out and tried to kill me, not once but three times was a very real eye opener for me personally.

I never will forget looking down the bore of a 45 ACP, with safety just flipped off and the guy with glazed eyes and a crazed look on his face asking me "who are you and why are you holding me." I did not know it at the time but he was back in Sigon when he was a CID agent in a shootout with dopers in an old hotel. I took the gun away from him, by grabbing the slide, forcing it back and twisting it in one motion. Then put him to bed. He started making noises so I went in the dark bedroom and he was behind the door with a big Boker folder, he got my shirt, about 12 inches worth, a little nicked skin, but I got the knife, without breaking his arm and then as I turned to leave he pulled another folder and came at me again. After I got that knife, I threw him out. He was just way to crazy to remain in my home.
Ed

[Adam Helmer]

Rapier,

A Carry Permit IS a permit to carry. I can see no carry in court or bars, BUT CHURCHES? There have been several shooting sprees in churches, one was in Michigan, as I recall. APPARENTLY the Rampage Shooter DID NOT OBEY the "No Guns in church rule!" Imagine that?

Adam

[Larryjk]

Skeet,
Always make sure you have a few "clean" firearms around you. These are ones that no one registered, and better if the guy that sold it to you has gone on to his reward in the sky. (Can't testify he sold it to you)

[Adam Helmer]

Larryjk,

The "Clean gun" or "Drop Gun" nonsense will not WASH in court. If you want to "Cover" a shooting, you need to Shoot, Shovel and Shut Up and forget the "Drop Gun" scenario which ALWAYS falls apart in court.

Richard Nixon proved to all that when you LIE you need a PERFECT Memory to keep 2+ stories straight. See where that got Nixon? LOL!

Adam

[Rapier]

So far our limited list of no carry locations has proven to be very workable and we have had no "incidents" of a permit holder violating the rules that I am aware of.

I do believe Florida's CWP is the most widely carried permit in the country. We issue resident and non resident CWPs and the vast majority of states recognize the Florida permit. As a must issue state, we have a lot of nonresidents who come to Florida on vacation, get a permit, and return home, good to go. About half of our CWP classes are nonresidents.

Only common sense would tell you that there are places the public simply can not be allowed to carry, example, a police station or a court room. Now the others might be subject to debate but, as I mentioned, they have worked well for us so far.
Ed

[skeet]

Skeet,
Always make sure you have a few "clean" firearms around you. These are ones that no one registered, and better if the guy that sold it to you has gone on to his reward in the sky. (Can't testify he sold it to you)

Larry I always have those kind of guns..but if at all possible I would walk away I have to tell you..I was a witness in an assault one time. 7 out of 9 witnesses could not positively identify the assault victim or the party who did the assault. It was actually an assault and the victim fought back and nearly killed the assailant..with her high heeled shoe. Planted it in the top of his head.. He almost died and she got off completely. My partner and I on the rescue truck saw it all and were the only ones who had the correct IDs and scenario. None of the other witnesses even got the chain of events correct..So as Adam said..always walk if you can. Just my $.02 If ya gotta shoot someone..don't be an idiot..Get rid of the gun..I mean gone. Back east in Md..the Chesapeake bay was a great repository in my opinion. LOL

[Adam Helmer]

Rapier,

SO HOW do you keep Gun CRAZIES out of churches? Gun FREE ZONES ARE Dangerous places for Citizens. Numb Nuts gun crazies can, and will, invade churches. Let them come and hear my SERMON! The Lord be with them!

I will do their funeral service for free.

Adam

[Dan Morris]

Actually, Colorado State Constitution states that you can carry......Denver thinks they are a separate enity....that's why I got a CCW to respond to AM alarms at yard! Restrictions that I have makes me not want to renew it..carrying illegal is a misdemeanor....drink 2 wines at dinner n I blow .04 with a CCW is a FELONY...no more shooting sports or guns.
Granted, there are a few CCW holders that I know ...the brain increases with the weight of the ammo.....same goes for a few LEO's...not cop bashing,
people react different ways!
Dan

[Larryjk]

Adam and Skeet, I didn't mean a clean gun for what I call a "throw down". I mean a clean gun for when the guys in black (or whoever it might be)come to get your guns it is much harder to get them all if they don't know what you have.
Sometimes I carry a gun but I hope I never need it to stop someone. I was told and still believe that no matter how bad someone has it coming, the powers to be are going to make your life a living hell for a least a year, even if it was justified. (This from an FBI instructor.)

[Rapier]

Over the years we here in the Plywood State have had at least three legal versions of when deadly force could be used to defend. Probably the longest lasting was the requirement that you had to retreat and that got so stupid, after interpretations from the bench, that it got down to retreating to the futurist room in your own house. So we, the people, killed it. What we now have is in effect a constitutional right to carry, by default, in the state.

Today, Florida is not your grandpa's state. Under the new law if you are in fear of your life, anywhere, you need not retreat or withdraw, you can defend yourself with deadly force and the law specifically allows the use of a gun (s), switchblade knife, or sap. You are the licensed object, not the weapon you carry. This is as the laws across the country should be, but our law sent the antis all over this country right off the cliff. We had protesters from from the major anti centers and "safe cities," like NY City, running around in the Miami airport with signs warning foreign visitors they might be shot and other such stupid garbage.

But if you had universal carry, the mechanism for use of deadly force might well prove the undoing of the law itself. You each know how your local laws work and some are almost impossible to actually use to protect yourself. Just as an example, I can not imagine ever convincing the people in NY City that they would be a thousand times safer in their homes with everyone armed VS their totally skewed view of their rights today, after years of pounding by their schools and the media. I lived outside Newark, NJ for four years and watched and listened to NY TV and radio every day. It is very much like a bubble where everyone that lives in the bubble is bombarded by totally absurd "truth" on a daily basis. You must make a very clear distinction between NY and NY City when thinking about NY as a whole and very unfortunately many states are in the same boat when it comes to their major metro areas.

Is it doable, yes. Would it be difficult, yes. But it would require years and a lot of re-education and deprogramming.
Ed

[popplecop]

Always get a kick out of No Guns Allowed, even if the gang bangers can read do they actually believe they will leave their guns outside?

[Adam Helmer]

Larryjk,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree, everyone needs a "Cold Piece" or two. The "Word" on the street is that a cold piece goes for 3X to 5X the listed price at a shop where Big Brother get all the data on gun and owner.

Adam

[Larryjk]

Adamand Skeet, There is still a problem, even if our Governor signs the Constitutional Carry bill, making it the law. I would be hesitant to expose a handgun unless it was damn near a certainty I would need to use it. In this state (WY) you can be charged with assualt for just pointing a handgun at someone. I am going to see the city attorney (a friend who used to be a county prosecutor) and have him explain the assualt laws to me. That needs to be cleared up and given to anyone who wants a copy. May take a while though.

[skeet]

Well to be honest I think pointing a handgun at a person in most states would get you a real hard look even if it was necessary in your opinion.. Have a witness..A good one. The world is a very unfair place..criminals..aren't... and we the ones who try to do things right are prosecuted for petty stuff. Or for protecting ourselves

[Skinny Shooter]

:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/xm15e2/gun-free-zone.jpg

[PJgunner]

all I will say on the subject is if you are in a position where you need a gun, you're gonna need it badly.:( My wife has always complained that I'd have a gun in the car. One day, the ugly nasty occurred and she was awfully glad I had it with me. She does not complain any more. How ugly nasty was it? Let's just say I came very close to having to shoot a deranged man with an awfully big club. He apparently had a gripe with an ex-mayor here in town and I had the unfortunate bad luck to resemble hizzoner. :eek::( I happy to say that the sight of my 9MM finally broke through his dementia and he left. There were a half dozen witnesses and I did get their names and contact info, just in case. Now, here in Arizona, I can carry concealed without a permit which is kind of cool. However, I do plan on getting a permit anyway when I can find the time. I can only hope that none of you here ever have to have that type of situation happen to you. I can only say that if he'd tried to get into our vehicle, I would have had to shoot him. As it is, thereare still dents on the roof of that car we had at the time where he pounded on the roof.
Paul B.

[skeet]

Well I haven't followed the bill in Wyoming other than to note it had been passed and sent to the governor...I am happy to report that the bill was signed by the governor this week.. The law goes into effect on July 1st. I've also found that there are approx 4 other states considering the same types of conceled carry. I am thinking of getting a carry license in another state (just because)..especially one recognized by lots of other states