expensive .380's

[kt]

lately i am seeing more and more ads for .380 auto that are no smaller than todays pocket 9mm or 40's hold no more rounds and cost ups of $475. i am having trouble seeing the niche for them. perhaps for women the recoil is more manageable. beyond that i thought this was a trend that died in the 90's. certainly for the money of the sw bodyguard or the new sig we can find a better carry option right?
kt

[buckhunter]

Its just on of the trends that smaller is better (not in all cases). I can see their justification but a 380 isn't for me. If I carried a purse it might have its place but I don't. In Mass there are more women applying and receiving carry permits and I suspect this will be their weapon of choice, I once watched a tv show which featured women learing how to shoot and everyone one of them used a 380 (PPK) so that may be the answer.

[Jack]

Some of the new 380's on the market are really small - more like what we'd expect a 25 auto to look like. I think it's the size more than the caliber that is the attraction.

[Rapier]

In my experience as an instructor, it depends on the instructor in many cases and their attitude. It also has a lot to do with the affiliation of the instructor to a shop and what that shop might have as the Gun Dejour. Over the years I have seen a great deal of inexperienced folks being pushed to guns they do not need nor can they handle, by folks who get involved primarily to sell guns.
Ed

[kt]

rapier makes a good point. also i was at cabelas on saturday and had my hands on the kahr. it really seems a nice gun, so unlike the toy looks of the keltec and lcp. however the gun was over 500 bucks. positively rediculous. how ever i do feel i had a slight change of heart and would love to have that gun.

[popplecop]

kt, let me assure you that the LCP is not a toy. I speak from 30 yrs. as a LEO and 18 of them spent as a firearms instructor. Now I have been retired for 23 yrs., but keep current with handguns. The LCP is designed as an in your face pistol, by that I mean 7 yds at the max. There are a number of times slipping one of these in your pocket vs an ibh for a larger handgun is useful. I have 3 CC handguns listed in the order I prefer them, old Colt LW Commander 45 acp, Para PDA 9mm, and a LCP. I shoot all of them regularly as should anyone who wants a handgun for personal defense. My son is a LEO and also has a Para Carry 9 and a LCP, he has 23 yrs. as an LEO, so is very experenced. All and all I am very comfortable with the LCP for some situations.














cc

[8X56MS]

if a .380 is all you can carry, then you should probably reassess your thoughts.

I am NOT going to depend on something inadequate to save my life. Lots of folks carry a mouse gun because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy. Not me.

That folks pay a premium for brand name mouse guns is even more telling......

[Rapier]

We should all carry A) what we can really carry and B) what we are comfortable with and C) what we are proficient with. Some of us can use a small gun with quickness and precision.

Just think on this; Hickock carried two 36 Navy revolvers, loaded with round ball. A modern 380 is aprox., the same caliber and has more energy. It is truly a question of how well you can use the gun you carry, not the cartridge in the chamber.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

Rapier I hate to throw the BS flag on the comparison, but I have shot a 36 navy, and it has considerably more punch than a 380 auto (which I also own) A 36 navy loaded with real black at levels that it was originally intended to load at will WAY over penetrate ANY modern 380 round.

Just saying.

a 380 is better than nothing. I carried one for years. BUT if I was going to go purchase a brand new ccw ultralight gun a 380 AIN'T it.

There are multiple good "micro" automatics out there chambered in 9mm and 40 S&W, there used to be several even in 45 acp (don't remember the company that made the little 5 shot 45 acp micro automatic about a decade back). And any number of good double action snubbies. Then there is a whole HERD of derringers in good calibers.

IE If you HAVE a 380 and that's ALL you have, by all means carry away. If not I personally would consider something else. I carry a 38+P snubby and I can drop it in a bluejeans pocket, or a cowboy boot and you can't tell the difference.

My 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

GOB,
Suggest you compare the physics and not what you felt. The 380 has higher energy than a 36 round ball, period. The round ball weighs about 83 grains, being kind here, it travels at about the same velocity as the 100 grain 380 bullet, you tell me which has more energy. Actually the 380 gets to near 1,000 fps on Hodgdon's charts and the RB by the Lyman manual runs about 750. Felt recoil from a revolver is no comparison to energy, especially if you are talking a shot from an auto VS revolver.

Come on man, I have shot BP all of my adult life and owned over a dozen BP revolvers. Most have no idea the RB weighs so little, I figured someone would bite on that. You may pick up your BS flag and stick it back in your pocket.
Ed

[popplecop]

Lets face some facts, there are times that my old Colt LW Commander 45 acp, or my Para PDA 9mm or my S&W 36 don't really allow me to carry concealed enough, the Ruger LCP .380 is highly concealable and with proper loads it will work for self defense. In my 30 year career in Law Enforcement I worked everything from uniform, plain clothes and undercover, from narcotics to being a game warden. Seventeen years of the 30 were spent also as a firearms instructor so I do have some experence. Have 2 cap and ball Colt 36s, an originasl and an Italian one, but trust me I'll take my LCP .380 with my Hornady 90 gr. Critical Defense loads anyday.

[FIJI]

bodies in the morgue that will argue the point that a 380 "is too small" !!


My main carry is a 40 Sig P229SAS. When that is not practical I have NO problems at all carrying its twin - .380 Sig P232

Havent noticed any wave of people offering to stand in front of me while shoot the 232 !! :D

[GoodOlBoy]

Rapier I suggest you consider the multiple 2x4s the round shot through (they felt it I didn't) and not the physics numbers. The 380 did NOT penetrate as well as the 36. Higher energy, higher orbit, higher price, shinier, take your pick. Once I witnessed the 36 physically over-penetrated the 380 what else was there? I mean yeah you can take the numbers and stare at them all day and assume that they mean the 380 whoops the 36, but when it gets down to the nut cuttin' I have seen it done. Like I said I carried a 380 for YEARS, and loved it when I carried it, but I moved on to something more in line with my needs, and am now moving forward again.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

And Fiji, I am not saying the 380 hasn't done it's share of killing, and No I won't willingly stand in front of anything be shot at me! I also won't stand there and willingly let somebody punch me in the nose. My current ccw is either a 1911A1 45acp with 230grain ball when I can (IE winter under a coat) and a 38+P 158 grain JSP when I can't. I am still trying to acquire a Taurus M450 in 45 colt. When I do the 38 will be set aside for future engagements.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Lot of LEO folks here, and I'm sure that they have seen their fair share of shootings. I am on the other end of the spectrum....I have worked in the medical field, doing stints in the E.R., I.C.U., and the O.R. since I was 19.
After seeing the after effects of a number of shootings over the years, these are the conclusions I've come to from person experience & observation, both at work and from shooting, handloading, ect.
1.) I don't want to be shot with anything, but I particularly don't want to be shot with anything .38 caliber or larger, and I'm talking bullet diameter here, folks, not cartridge. HP ammo has come a long way in the past 25-30 years, and it's a lot more reliable than the stuff that was out there in the 70's when I started shooting. .380s to the chest will kill you just as dead as a .45 will....there are no varying degrees of dead.
2.) there are no magic calibers....some will fail (yes, even the .45 with a chest hit) to incapacitate immediately. The "one shot stop" myth needs to go, and I don't know of anyone who carries a single shot sidearm for CCW.
3.) Placement is everything. We had a shooting here several years back where a drug dealer was cornered by police and hospital security. The pulled a small automatic and they immediately opened fire on him....4 officers with 6 shot revolvers of .38 and .357 mag caliber. The guy lived. Why? Not ONE bullet hit a vital organ! They hit him in the arms, legs,...even his penis! But he lived to tell the tail. In the same vein, I took care of a teenage kid that was immediately incapacitated by ONE shot from a .25 ACP....he lived on life support for the next month in the ICU while his brain matter slowly oozed out the 1/4 inch hole in the side of his skull.
3.) A lot of the bad guys that we've taken care off had bullet holes IN THEIR BACK! I would assume this to mean that they were running away from their intended victims AFTER they found out that they were armed.....and it probably didn't matter with what! Most criminals are cowards (which is why they are criminals), and don't want to 'shoot it out' with anyone, no matter how big or small the firearm the opposition is carrying. Just like most of us, they don't want to be shot by anyone, either.
4.) Confidence in anything will more likely meet with success.....that means when applying to professional school, taking on a difficult case, or honing your shooting skills. Bad guys don't go to the range and practice by putting holes in paper....if they did, they wouldn't hold their guns sideways, or load the bullets in backwards (yes, we had a bad guy shot here in the city by the cops, and when they checked out his gun, he put the bullets in the clip...BACKWARDS!).
5.) comparing black powder firearms to modern day firearms is like comparing apples and oranges.
6.). Bullet testing on pine boards, water soaked surgical sponges, milk jugs filled with water, ballistics gelitan, ect. will only tell you how likely a bullet will perform if you are attacked by pine boards, water soaked surgical sponges, milk jugs filled with water, ballistics gelitan, ect. The human body is too complicated, not only in it's physical make up (bone, flesh, tendon, fluid, ect), but it its psycological make up (fear & resulting flight or fight response, drug induced reactions and state of mind, reaction to pain & pain tolerance, ect). to be reduced to the axiom "This is how this bullet will react when it meets flesh". Even real life street shooting statistics have to many variables to narrow down to "this caliber is best" or "this bullet is only so-so".

Sometimes, I carry a .380. Sometimes, I carry a more "powerful" cartridge. A lot depends on time of year, concealment factors, ect. But, in my mind, I have every confidence that if I have to pull that .380, the guy on the other end is gonna be dead....no question.

Just some ramblings from my side of the fence.

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Well Done! I enjoyed reading your "ramblings." You made a lot of sense and I agree with all you said.

Adam

[kt]

16 gauge... great post... and the debate rages on.. thanks for the input guys
kt

[GoodOlBoy]

16 you make alot of good points, however there is an extrapolation that can be formed using pine board, phone books, etc etc etc. If I can't shoot it through a tin can, and it's competition will shoot through three then I am FAR more likely to go with the competition simply for ease of getting said projectile where it needs to go. Of course there is no magic bullet, but that doesn't stop me from not wanting to carry a bb gun instead of a 44, or a 45. I am not saying the 380 is a bb gun by any means, but compare to a 40 a 41 a 44 a 45 etc etc etc it might as well be. The question stands. In you opinion is a expensive 380 worth it. My answer stands. In my opinion no. I can save money, and still shoot a stouter caliber MORE LIKELY to do the job. There are no guarantees in a firefight. I am a certified medic and rescue diver (certified in both as well as five other dive specialties in 1994-1996 Nacogdoches Texas at Diver's Depot), and I have worked for and with law enforcement (the darkest four years of my life). I have seen a 25 auto used to kill a man, and I have SEEN a man shot with a 380 auto in the head that survived (the bullet traveled under the hide around his skull and exited just behind an ear a fluke no doubt but if I were him I would catch up on my church tithes) But I reiterate. IN MY OPINION (and only my opinion) the 380 is TOO light a caliber to carry for defense of myself and my family when there are better rounds to do the job. What you choose to carry to defend yourself and yours is up to you.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

If I can't shoot it through a tin can, and it's competition will shoot through three then I am FAR more likely to go with the competition simply for ease of getting said projectile where it needs to go. Of course there is no magic bullet, but that doesn't stop me from not wanting to carry a bb gun instead of a 44, or a 45.

Then at what point do you stop with this type of thinking? Do you quit carrying your .44 magnum in favor of a .500 S&W? ....or, instead of a .500, do you go 'back in time' to the Victorian era and carry a Howdah pistol (double barrel of 60 caliber or so)....those were REAL manstoppers! And I'm sure that they will shoot through several boards, phone books, or whatever.
Reminds me of a guy I know...he is a deer hunter, and he thinks that the 7mm magnum isn't powerful enough to kill whitetail deer. Why? Because he shot one with a 175 grain bullet meant for elk....the bullet zipped right through w/o causing any shock, and the deer took off at the sound of the gun shot and was difficult to recover. I suggested he go to a lighter bullet, a lower velocity, or a different bullet with a thinner jacket. Couldn't convince him....he now carries a .300 Weatherby as his "deer rifle". Same guy feels that you can't kill wood ducks with anything less than a 3 1/2 inch magnum 12 gauge loaded with #2 hevishot. I guess I'll tell all those woodies I killed with my 16 gauge and bismuth #5s and 12 gauge 2 3/4" steel #3s that they really aren't dead.....I intend to go down in my freezer and do that after I'm done typing this;)
If caliber were all there were, then the point would be moot. If this were the case, then we would all be carrying .500s.....but it isn't and we aren't.
There are going to be instances where a full size 1911 isn't going to be practical to carry (the beach, for example). Also, I am VERY skeptical as to how shooting THROUGH something, esp. pine boards or phone books, can be extrapolated back to how a bullet reacts to flesh/bone/fluid.....to me, it sounds as if the theory was born to confirm the research, not the other way around. Shot a lot of wood with my .44 and .357 magnums; never saw any of the live critters I've shot with said calibers react similarly, and I'm willing to bet humans would react differently than animals shot with same rounds, making all those goats shot nothing more than 'research' done to confirm someones pet theory, i.e. the tests were done is such a manner as to skew the results towards one pet theory.
If you wish to believe those theories & extrapolations, so be it.....people tell me that my theory of creation is bunk, but I look at their theory of evolution, and while it can be proven on a small scale with small populations, there are still big gaps that they cannot explain away.
Carry your .44 & .45; I'm sure you shoot them well, and I hope you never have to use it.......

[GoodOlBoy]

Actually right now I usually carry a 38, as I have said many times. AND I never suggested carrying a 50 of any sort. I feel sorry for your buddy if he was stupid enough to buy a mangulum rifle for whitetail when a 30-30 would do it just as good if not better and COST LESS for the job. There is always a balance. In my books if I can depend on a 45 to penetrate X number of pine boards X thick then I can depend on it to penetrate FBI heavy cloth in the winter time...... Ever think of that one? Heavy cotton tshirt, flannel shirt, wool lined denim jacket. Stops a 9mm, 380, 38 spec etc pretty danged effectively. A 357, a 40, a 41, a 44, a 45 penetrates without a hitch. I am not trying to drop chargin rhino, but I have had a knife pulled on me in the winter time, and while I am sure a 38 to the coconut would have done the job the guy was wearing enough padding to stop a 38 for center mass.

Any ccw gun beats NO ccw gun. But I will say it again IMHO a 380 NO MATTER HOW EXPENSIVE AND FANCY will not penetrate heavy cloth in the winter, and that's that. SO IF I was buying a NEW ccw it would NOT be a 380. A accurate 380 is a deadly round, IF you have the time to draw it aim it keep your cool, etc etc etc. I have been in enough simunitions live fire drills and scenarios, have had knives and guns pulled on me that I know what adrenaline does to my hands at point blank range around 30 seconds in. I want something that will do the job even if my shot placement is not perfect, even though it usually is. The problem is that it USUALLY is. nothing is 100%. I am not saying there is a magical bullet, and I believe I have already stated a number of times I don't buy into the fancy ammo, fancy caliber bunk. A 45 colt loaded at cowboy speeds with a 250 or 300 grain LEAD bullet will do a number on ANY target, be it in defense, or for hunting. You can magnumize it if you feel the need, I don't.

You are correct pine does not reflect the way a human body, or animal body will react to a bullet. Thankfully a animal body DOES reflect the way a body will react, and I have had a good amount of luck with a 45 in a whitetail deer. 357 mag wasn't bad (in 158 grain hp, lead, or sjsp) , 38 special wasn't good except in 158 grain lead or sjsp FYI. You are correct the myth of the one shot stop is just that a myth unless you hit the brainstem in which case I refer you back to my earlier comments about adrenaline.

To say it again and again and again. I don't like a 380 based on my OWN experiences. Not in felt recoil, but in end result. Tangible results I have seen, felt, and tasted. I don't believe ANY article, ANY legend, ANY myth, ANY salesman until I have seen it done myself. As an example it is the entire reason why I have left the 327 fed mag out of the conversations. I have heard alot many ways about the round, never seen it in action so I have no opinion on it.

GoodOlBoy

[popplecop]

Early in my career I assisted on 2 homicides. First one was with a 9mm pistol was a Luger, bullet was 124 gr. FMJ as I recall, the 2nd was a .22RF Short from a Ruger Bearcat, 1 shot to the heart. After that most of death investigations were hunting accidents with everything from a .22 RF up to 12 gas. with Slugs including a number with rifles.