What do you think about operation Gunrunner?

[Rapier]

In case you have not heard about this, it turns out that the Gun Dealers all over the SW have been working directly with the ATF, under the direct orders of the US Department of Justice, according to the ATF agents involved, to sell guns to gun smugglers hauling truck loads of guns into Mexico, some 1,900 or so semi-auto rifles.

It also turns out that the ICE agent murdered in Mexico was killed by one of the ATF guns involved!!!

The Obama administration has been almost daily blaming the gun laws, gun shows, gun dealers and states along the border for "allowing" the trafficking in guns. I have been following this now for a few weeks, ever since I saw a blurb about a senator from Mexico, I believe it was, denouncing the US. The Mexican government claims 195 people in Mexico have been killed or wounded by these very same guns!!!

Just watch this:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4611528/congressional-investigation-of-project-gunrunner#/v/4611528/congressional-investigation-of-project-gunrunner/?playlist_id=87485

Now it turns out that it was the ATF and the DOJ who were breaking the law to enforce the law. Think about it, how do our police officers break the law to enforce the law, at any stage of the process? Do you feel safer already? Are your rights being protected by a bunch of lying hypocrites? Why is the US government working the border smuggling trade to kill innocent civilians on your behalf?

I see this as a very, very evil and cynical Frankenstein Monster concoction, a win, win deal by the Obama Administration. We sell the guns, we track the killers, we arrest them, we blame the gun shows, gun owners and dealers, we demand stiffer gun laws and we skip home as heroes to our left wing anti gun buddies and the enforce the law supporters.

Someone needs a trip to Leavenworth very badly on this deal and me thinks his initials are Eric Holder. This is not in my opinion a get fired deal, it is a go to jail, directly to jail, do not collect $200.
Ed

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I guess I want more facts before I vote.....just as I do with CNN, I don't trust Fox news to get all the facts right prior to making a broadcast.....all the news agencies anymore take a tidbit and run with it in an attempt to "scoop the competition" and boost ratings.

I will say it doesn't make much sense, and while I'm not a lawyer, I think that encouraging someone to break the law constitutes a form of entrapment. Straw purchases are illegal...period! So why are you phoning the ATF and asking if it's "O.K."?
I think there is more to this story (it stinks like 3 week old garbage) and it smacks of left wing conspiracy, but one thing is for sure......Obama, Holder, and the rest will NEVER be held accountable for it if it does come to be true; you can bet some third level administrator will take the fall.

BTW: so much for "transparency"!

[Rapier]

You misunderstand, this is not alleged by Fox News, it is a fact and has been admitted by the ATF. There is a congressional investigation or two underway right now.

Run a Google Search under Operation Gunrunner then Operation Gunwalker and then ATF Mexican gun smuggling and see what comes up. Look for the Mexican Government outrage article on the BBC site. Lord I hope you do not watch CNN.

Obviously you have never been a licensed dealer operating under the ATF in this country. They hold your business in their hand every time you deal with them. A smart dealer gets any such questionable instructions in writing but some dealers do not do so. Yes, I am a former dealer and store owner so I am very familiar with how pervasive the ATF can be.

Here is some reading for you:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=274449

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthetruthaboutguns.com%2F2011%2F03%2Frobert-farago%2Frep-issa-launches-congressional-investigation-into-atf-gunwalker-scandal%2F&rct=j&q=congressional%20investigation%20ATF&ei=DBSSTeiGEYHYgQeXqIkZ&usg=AFQjCNEN6h8Cany0T40e_0qbLLjmMMJw4Q&cad=rja

http://roblorinov.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/issa-the-atf-and-project-gunrunner-what-an-escapade/


http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/2011/03/21/rep-ted-poe-calls-for-a-congressional-investigation-over-agent-brian-terrys-murder/

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/153-phoenix-division/

http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=2515

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2673336/posts

Ed

[skeet]

This is a travesty.. If we as dealers had done these things it would have been loss of license and jail time

[Mr. 16 gauge]

You misunderstand, this is not alleged by Fox News, it is a fact and has been admitted by the ATF.

No, I didn't think it was alleged, and I'm sure there is truth to it, but you must admit that they have a right wing "bend", and their reporting is slanted to the right, just as CNNs is bent to the left.

Lord I hope you do not watch CNN.

Oh, but I do! Axiom #1: Know thine enemy!

And, no, I've never been a firearms dealer and had to deal with the ATF.....but I am in the medical profession and have had to deal with crap from other govt. agencies, so I kinda know where your coming from.

Thanks for the additional links; I will give them a read when I have the time.

[Larryjk]

Mr. 16 gauge, I am a dealer/gunsmith and have definitely been the subject of an attempted "set up" at one time, and sidestepped another possible set up. I will not do anything illegal, no matter who is asking, even if it is law enforcement with the supposed backing of the BATFE. There was a quick reversal of "advice" on my refusal to cooperate. It had nothing to do with Fox or CNN.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I am a dealer/gunsmith and have definitely been the subject of an attempted "set up" at one time, and sidestepped another possible set up.

There have been several 'stings' (i.e. entrapment) of firearms dealers here in MI, but to the best of my knowledge, it was the state conducting the 'stings' and not BATFs.....although I'm sure that is was done with their blessing. However, where this differs is that the staw purchases were made aware to the potential sellers at the time of the sale, so I don't feel too bad if they were caught breaking the law (there was no "go ahead....we'll catch 'em later" clause from the govt.). Unfortunately, I think this has more to do with fines and increasing revenue than it does with jailing lawbreakers and stopping illegal gun sales to gangs, the mafia, terrorists, ect. There have been several similar stings re: cigarette sales to minors; they get police cadets who are not of age to try and buy tobacco products and when they are sold, the seller is fined and his name appears in the local paper.....but none of the business' are shut down and none of the owners get jail time. To me, it's basically just a "pay to play" operation.....

Now, if congress would just entrap it's own members and leave the rest of us law abiding citizens alone, maybe we wouldn't have so much to worry about? Just a thought.

[skeet]

Mr 16.. I also had the BATF attempt stings on me in the past. It was not the state..it was the Feds and they were just looking for a way to shut the small dealers down. It really isn't like the medical field. ANYTHING you may do wrong even inadvertantly in the firearm field IS a FELONY. And now, when they do something patently wrong..uh..well ..it...uh... was....uh... just an anomaly..it was a way to find out where the guns go to?? Sheesh give us a break.. A right "bend" to Fox news? Even the El Presidente is trying to find a way to make this go away.. It isn't that Fox reported it with malice aforethought.. It was the truth unembelished..It's not like the medical field at all. People have died... partly from this operation. Telling a dealer to "break the Law" is wrong. Before I'd do what the dealers did in these instances, at the behest of the BATF, I'd have it in writing from the (useless) Attorney General of the United States. Then I would probably still refuse to do it. Am I lily white..no..but the BATF is more like the gestapo than a branch of the government working in the citizen's best interest.. Believe it or not..the government is not ALWAYS looking out for your best interests. This isn't cigarettes ...in fact if a kid tries to buy cigarettes..isn't he the one breaking the law??..even in a sting operation.. If I was selling him cigarettes and i asked him if he was old enough and he lied..who is at fault?? and if he did lie..wouldn't that make him a criminal??...Yep everyone has an agenda..from CNN MSNBC and Fox.. But it sure doesan't seem as though that Fox is trying to find a way to destroy your constitutional rights..I can't say that about the "mainstream media"...They really do seem to have a restrictive agenda..except in their own rights.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

O.K....this will be my last post on the subject.

I'm wrong....everyone else here is absolutely right.

My opinion has no bearing on the supposed "poll"....if you are looking for opinions other than yours, they are wrong.....I've already admitted that. So what was the purpose of the "poll" in the first place?

Dealing guns is far worse than having to deal in the medical profession, as far as the feds are concerned....even though the majority of you have NO idea what I have had to put up with re: HIPPA, ect.

Everyone happy now?:mad:

[skeet]

Hey Mr 16.. That was funny. No Everyone is not happy...see the mad post above.hahaha! I do know what i said was not intended to be a personal attack on you. ...Now be honest..if you run afoul of HIPPA..unless you are really ripping the gummit off in some manner(and I am not suggesting you are or would)..you will not be charged and prosecuted with a felony..especially if it is a minor offence...will you? But to be honest.. it could happen..it is the gummit bureaucrats we are talking of so i guess it could happen. LOL All I was trying to get across was that the BATF does these attempted stings as an everyday tool. Wrong in my opinion. Now i don't know the HIPPA thing..but as a supervisor of Paramedics and a recipient of federal funds.. I did have to report all uses of habit forming drugs for my paramedic teams...also not a fun thing. They were never happy with the reporting we did....especially with regards to unused and out of date drugs. For some reason the hospitals we turned them iinto did not always report them.. If you don't mind telling..what exactly do you do for work??..Sounds like it ain't always fun..dealing with bureaucrats etc..dealing with doctors can sometimes be worse...screaming patients or their parents OY VEY..and I ain't even Jewish

[Rapier]

A small update on the BATF BS run amuck:

"Fortunately, Congressman Darrell Issa (R-CA) isn’t satisfied to sit back and wait for the administration to remember what they did or didn’t authorize. On March 16th he sent a letter to Acting Director Kenneth Melson, BATF, “requesting specific documents related to Project Gunrunner, its ‘Fast and Furious’ component, and records related to the death of Border Agent Brian Terry.”

Although the requested documents were to be turned over by March 30th, the BATF didn’t comply. So Issa has now gone a step further and issued a subpoena that clearly specifies the documents the Congressman wants to see, and expects to receive by April 13, 2011."
From the Big Government sight

What is interesting is how this has just dropped off the map in the news and how It also seems at this point that not only is the count on guns up to 2,500 but the types of guns now includes 50 cal Barretts. Oh, yeah........ We got murdering drug dealers running around with US Govt supplied Barretts....... Hum, what in hell were these folks not thinking? I know, let's have our Border Patrol guys drop down to the Rio Grande and interdict a drug smuggler covered from across the river by a 50 cal., oh what fun.......

[PJgunner]

Mr. 16 Gauge. I'm not a gun dealer nor do I play one on TV. let me give you my experience with the BATFE although at the time it was just BATF. I was living i a small country town in the mid 1980's. and was pretty friendly with the owners of the local hardware store which sole fireams. Aometimes, when I had nothing better to do I hang out and shoot the breze with the owners and sometimes look over whatever new guns came into the store. I'd been looking at a 6" S&W M66 .357 mag. for a while and was trying to figure out how I was gonna pay for it and justify it to the better half. Iwas truly a want and not need thing. Well, one day while I was there these two guys, obvious strangers in that small town one one dude gloms on that M66. So he pulls out his wallets and when asked to hid ID, it tiurns out he has a California driver's license and we're in the state of Nevada. A big no no thanks to the 1968 gun control act. His buddy says, I'm from Nevada so let me buy the gun for you. :eek: Red flags go up in my mind and I tell the owner not to sell him the gun. That would br against that 1968 law. The two dudes jump on my case and tell me to mind my own business. I looked them in the eye, said "F" you and tell Pete the owner to put the gun on my bill. THose dudes were pizzed. They start telling me I'm obstructing justice and all that crap and I look them in the face and tell them to do their worst. It would have been easy to prove I'd been considering buying that gun for a couple of weeks and had just decided to do it. When the store owners asked the two to leave they refuse so the Sheriff was called, they still refused and two BATF guys went to jail for trespassing. :cool: Needless to say I kept a low profile for a few days.
To me, doing those straw man deals is nothing more than entrapment, and I don't give a damn that some Supreme Court judges said otherwise.
That 1968 gun control law is nothing more than the law Hitler got passed in Germany to keep the Jews and others from owning firearms. One Senator Dodd who was working with the Nuremberg trials found a copy, had it translated, loved it so well the he and his buddy Emmanual Cellers rammed it through the Congress and that buffoon LBJ signed it into law.:mad: May they all be residing in hell.
Yes, I feel that strongly about one thing. The BATFE should be abolished. There's no provision in the Constitution for a federal police force of any kind. :eek:
Paul B.

[DON WALKUP]

since when has the law meant anything to eric holder and the obama administration?

this mess along the Mexican border will NOT stop until we act in our own behalf and shut the border down...period...not a popular notion amongst the far left and the Hispanic 'immigrant' activists.

a recent article on the internet says the pres of Mexico should look to their southern border...the article claims that more arms are smuggled there than at the NORTHERN border of Mexico...

we've all seen photos of weapons seized in raids on cartels. most that I've seen are mostly AK's and i even saw an MG36 in one picture. i doubt Hillary knows what an MG36 is and where it originated yet she blames us in the US for the guns.

this issue is not going away soon...the only thing that's going to happen is the law abiding American gun owner will be punished in some way for it.

[Rapier]

Now the ATF Director has refused to produce the documents and has been given the following letter informing him he will be charged with contempt:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Other_Documents/4-20-11_Melson_Follow_up_letter.pdf

I guess if you are cited for Contempt of Congress they send a US Marshal over to your office to get you. Never have seen a department of the government refuse a Congressional Investigation before, to my memory.
Ed

[jplonghunter]

Rapier

If this were you or I in contempt of congress, wonder which jail we would be sitting in now.

[Rapier]

JP,
That is precisely the problem. Not only has the law obviously been broken by our law enforcement divisions but there is also a festering culture within the BATF and the FBI that actually believes they, the administrators of these bureaus of our government, are beyond the law or the reach or control of the citizens of this country.

This situation is so obviously going to reach into high places and the longer the lions go unfed, the hungrier they become. This failure to comply was a very bad decision by DOJ and the BATF and could well bring the house down around their ears.

The elitist culture of law enforcement must be dismantled before it is used to do irreparable harm to the very fabric of our government, the Constitution. "We the people," simply can not allow this path to be taken by any branch of our government but especially by our “protectors.”

The committee has no choice, once they opened the book. Now the committee must start contempt proceedings if their order is ignored, which it has been. I am very hopeful that this may become the mistake that reigns in the feds, at last. However, Ruby Ridge nor Waco did it, so we shall see.
Ed