WARNING: Check the loading manual.

[Larryjk]

We all think we are experienced reloaders. Two days ago, a friend called to ask if I would look at his rifle? He fired a shell that apparently was TOO MUCH and he couldn't get the bolt open. He brought the rifle to my shop. It is a Kimber Tactical in .308 Winchester. The bolt handle was up (bolt unlocked) but he could not get the bolt back. The handle was bent back from him hitting it with something. He had thoroughly lubricated the barrel and chamber area with Kroil to no avail. I put 1/4 inch drill rod down the barrel to the base of the empty cartridge stuck in the chamber and began tapping it with a machinists hammer. It didn't move. I switched to a 2 lb. hammer so I could get more force without a mighty swing. It moved back then without much force. When I could see the entire case was in the ejection port, I removed it from the bolt face. There didn't appear to be any damage. He was sweating blood because he had done this on the second shot. He said it was 46.5 grs. of W748 behind a Hornday 168 gr. bullet. (I am giving the brands because the problem was not with the manufactures of the products involved.) The R-P case was now ready for a shotgun battery cup primer. He couldn't understand why it hanged up so tightly because the shot before didn't. It had been 47 grs. of W748 and the case was also ready for a shotgun battery cup. I asked him where the he-- he had gotten the data for those loads. He said he thought he had been using that load in a prior rifle.
We went into my office and got out the last two Hornady manuals; Edition 7 and 8. W748 is not listed for the 168gr. bullets. The max. load for a 155 grain bullet is 46.7 grs. of W748. I told him at least he should have started at the LOW end of his test loads and work up instead of the TOP DOWN. I also told him he was very da-- lucky he still had a good rifle and all of his features. I let him copy the data from my manuals. I told him to go back to about 43 grains with the 155 gr. bullets he had and work up, watching the primer. At the first sign of flatness (before a primer smeared over the case head), drop back a half grain.
I see this type of trouble far too often. Use a manual to work up a load for your rifle. If you are looking for magnum velocities, perhaps buy a magnum.

[Jack]

Good warning.
I say, not 'use a manual' but, 'use more than one- at least 3'.
I think the minimum you should have is one from the powder manufacturer, one form the bullet manufacturer, and a 3rd one to check the other 2.

[buckhunter]

Pretty due what Jack suggests. Check and double check. I do some math also to see where it stands.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yep I have found errors before. And I always be very careful and very nervous about using ANY data that I have never used before.

That's why I like bulky powders. I will keep preaching it over and over again, and then I join the choir.

GoodOlBoy

[dovehunter]

At the risk of showing my ignorance, why would he use a "shotgun battery cup primer" in a rifle metallic cartridge case?

:confused:

[GoodOlBoy]

Actually dovehunter I was thinking the SAME thing...

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

At the risk of showing my ignorance, why would he use a "shotgun battery cup primer" in a rifle metallic cartridge case?

Most likely because the pressure caused the case to expand and deform that much.

I have seen some HORRENDOUS overloads listed on various sites on the internet; actually pulled a few off when I was a moderator because they were dangerous, then got lambasted for it from the poster...."I've used that load for years, You don't know ****, ect., ect." If they indeed did use that load for years, then they have a very active guardian angel!
One needs to remember that when dealing with loads off of the internet, it is very easy to hit the wrong key and hit a "2" instead of say, a "1".......and most folks don't proof read their posts for typos!:rolleyes:

[GoodOlBoy]

I have never understood the mentality that wants more more more out of the same case. I want a good accurate round. I don't need to break every speed barrier in the world. Not to mention I have often found the most accurate rounds are loaded well below the max load data. It saves lives, it saves supplies, it saves guns..... But what do I know.

GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

"At the risk of showing my ignorance, why would he use a "shotgun battery cup primer" in a rifle metallic cartridge case?"
I believe Larry was using a bit of hyperbole to illustrate how the load being discussed expanded the primer pocket and ruined the cartridge case. A rifle case that would accept a shotgun primer would be expanded enough to indicate a truly horrendous overload.
I completely agree with Mr 16 gauge about using data someone posted on the Internet. Too much possibility of typos- and bad judgement.
I have noticed that most rifles on the Internet shoot 1 inch groups or less. Those rifles seem for more common than the rifles I see in use at my local range. That's always made me wonder about the veracity of internet loading data, as well.

[Adam Helmer]

Larryjk,

Thanks for starting this excellent thread.

I agree with Jack; most rifles discussed on the Internet are "ALL" Sub-MOA! It seems everyone wants instant smarts when it comes to reloading. I endlessly see posts asking: "What is a good load for my rifle?" I tell them to do a few days of load development and FIND OUT the best load for your rifle.

I have several .30-06 rifles and the best load for one is not necessarily the best for another. That is why I keep detailed reloading/shooting notes; I am currently on notebook Number 14.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

You said it Adam, I have even seen different rifles of the same model that didn't like the same load.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

I never could understand if someone has a 30-06 and wants it to shoot like a 300 Win, wouldn't it be smart just to buy a 300 Win Mag. Or a 308 to shoot like a 06. I suppose we handloaders like to ring the most out of anything we have which is flurting with disaster.

[skeet]

As to the sub MOA rifles..most are in peoples dreams. I do have a couple that are true sub MOA..more are in the smaller calibers for certain. I have seen some that would be sub MOA..if they were in the hands of a competent shooter..in fact I have a couple that would shoot under that magic figure ..in someone else's hands...in fact I have a sub minute of deer Contender handgun..even in my hands 357 Max. I also have a Contender in 45-70 that is sub MOA with the first shot and sub minute of County with the 5th..but it is my fault. A friend from back in Md is a really good rifle shot..Pistol too..but he is numb from the neck up....heck maybe numb a couple of feet farther south for all I know. He shoots that 45-70 Contender really well.

[dovehunter]

As to the sub MOA rifles..most are in peoples dreams. ...

I will have to agree with you on that one, at least based on what I have seen. I have heard a lot of talk about this at my club's range. However, when you actually sneak a peak at folks' 100-yd. targets, it is rare indeed to see sub 1" groups as a regular thing. You do see them, just not as often as folks claim. I guess sometimes shooters are like fishermen in exaggerating sizes.

;)

[skeet]

Well if the Weebles wobbled all in the same direction one time and they lucked out with a small group...just once..it IS forever after a sub MOA rifle. ONE time I was sighting in a 1100 slug gun. Put 3 shots in a group you could easily cover with a half dollar 100 yds too. Did I consider it a sub MOA shotgun?? Heck no..I considered it one of the luckiest groups I ever shot...or ever will.. Ever now and again the group gods all get together and out comes something outstanding..from that point the fishermans story comes into play...IMO a sub MOA is a consistant MOA shooter

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I never could understand if someone has a 30-06 and wants it to shoot like a 300 Win, wouldn't it be smart just to buy a 300 Win Mag. Or a 308 to shoot like a 06. I suppose we handloaders like to ring the most out of anything we have which is flurting with disaster.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to enhance performance of a certain cartridge for certain specifications, i.e. loading up a .30-06 or a .270 a little 'hotter' for a moose or elk hunt, but he key word here is "little"......and there are other factors that come into play when tweaking a cartridge for better perfomance (premium or match grade bullets, consistant cases from the same lot #, ect), not just upping the powder charge and increasing velocity (and pressure!).
Like most of you, I've found that a decrease in a couple of hundred fps in a cartridge will still kill cleanly and at the same time give better accuracy (usually).....
Still, this thread is about NOT reading the manual, or going by memory, ect.....check and double check your loading data.

[Larryjk]

skeet, There are really sub-MOA rifles out there. It is just that many people don't want to go to the trouble of finding out what it takes to make them shoot that way. In my book, No. 1 is a clean barrel devoid of any copper foulng. Second is usually less than "full house loads". And third, varying the distance the bullet is from the lands. I have always heard stories of how a .22 Hornet is inherently inaccurate. I have two of the accurate ones that can put 5 bullets into less than the MOA if I do my job. My accuracy load in the 30-06 is 1.5 grains less than the recommended military loading for that cartridge. I always tell my son that a prairie dog never knows how fast the bullet was going that gets him.