Rifle shooting out to 400 yards +/-

[Adam Helmer]

I own a 60-acre farm and have a 20-acre hayfield up on top that is about 400yards by 250 yards. I do have a 100 yard range just up behind the house, but decided to "Range" my rifles out to 400 yards. Actually, I only get 375 yards (lasered) from my shooting bench to the target frame and two gongs. A verticle hill behind my gongs provides a safe backstop for all rounds fired.

I built several target frames 48" X 32" from scrap wood and placed them at 100, 200 and 375 yards. It takes a BIG target for 375 yards when one uses iron sights; a 5-minute or 20-inch bull will suffice for iron sights. For scopes, a 10-inch bull does fine out to 400 yards. My scoped rifles are sighted to print 2 inches high at 100 yards. I wanted to see where they printed at 200 and 375 yards. Before actually shooting, I studied the Sierra Ballistics Tables for my various bullets. Sierra was very close in the drop for all my arms tested.

I fired an M1 Garand with 150 grain spitzer handloads, a .243 with 100 grain spitzer handloads and a .25-06 with 87 grain spitzers and 117 grain spitzer handloads. My results were recorded in Volume 14 of my shooting logs. Bottom Line Is: all shooters should shoot beyond 100 yards for the information they will glean. Gravity always works! There are NO "Flat shooting rifles" and all bullets drop, some more than others. I will test fire a .264 Winchester Magnum, a .300 Weatherby Rem 700 and a .35 Whelen whenever this constant rain stops. I use my Polaris Ranger to dash up and back to patch targets.

Adam

[Jack]

Shooting targets at extended distance can be very illuminating! Particularly in different wind conditions.

[skeet]

You are right about the long range being really tough Heck till I hunted in Montana many many years ago..I thought a 2x7 was all i would ever need for bigger game hunting. Then holy Toledo.. 400 Yds is a LOOONNNGGG way and a 3x9 really isn't enough for some shooting here. Especially in the pointy places...and unless you have a good rangefinder the prairie country sure is long too but it is easier to figure yardage out there..in my opinion. I can usually get it pretty close out in the flats..the pointy areas are really hard. I almost always understimate. I ranged an elk I figured was just a bit over 450 yds. When the Leica told me it was 742 yds, I was amazed. I kinda think Petey and those guys in that long range shootin club up therehave a much better handle on the long shootin. I have my 300 Win Mag sighted at 300 yds for elk. and that sure is a Long way out there. I have learned also that there really is no such thing as a FLAT shootin rifle. If any comes close to flat it would have to be the 257 Weatherby Mag. I consider mine to be a real 450 yd antelope rifle...and like your targets..those critters target area is sure a lot smaller than you think. I figure my longest shootin range on an elk will be at the most 500 yds..in the open...not later than 2 hours before sundown and as little wind as possible. It is really amazing to me how much a bullet will drift in a LIGHT wind. In the mountains 500 yds is a very long way to walk...sometimes LOL. I have also observed that in the cold of winter in the mountains the wind is usually much lighter than in the summer. No wonder we hunt in winter LOL

[buckhunter]

Talk about long range. Spoke with a bud last night. His nephew is a Marine, scout/sniper currently serving as an instructor. In Afaighan (sp) he had a confirmed kill at 1490 yards. Now thats a long way. Barrett naturally.

It funny we speak that 40 yards with a bow is a long way.

[wrenchman]

This is a vey good post i to do read the charts and in most cases they ae close but u need to shoot each gun they will shoot different.
I have been hunting shot guns for the last few years and it is even more so with the new hot rounds the box says you can shoot 200 yards it does depend on the gun and shooter.

[muledeer]

Long range shooting is an eye opener. It's amazing how much a bullet drops at 500yds when you're 2-3 inches high at 100. Our county range has gongs starting at 300yrds out to 700yrds and a 55 gal drum at 1,000yds. I shoot a 270 Weatherby mag with 130 gr Nosler Ballistic tips and a 300 Weatherby with 180 gr BT (both handloads). I've shot several deer at 500 yrds +- with one shot kills (270 mag) simply because I practice long range shooting. Never shot anything that far with the 300 mag except gongs. I prefer closer shots but feel confident at 500yrds because I practice otherwise I would not attempt that distance for fear of wounding the animal.
I shoot a Barrett M99 50 cal 1000yrds at the drum. I gotta say, 1000yrds is a long ways even with a scope. I have nothing but respect for our snipers at the 1000+ yards shots they make.
muledeer

[Jack]

I think only us oldsters know what a huge advance in long range shooting the laser rangefinder is. Before that, range estimating was a big part of field shooting at long distance.

[PJgunner]

I usually sight my rifles in 3" high at 100 yards, but do shoot them out to 300, 400 and 500 meters depending on whatever round I'm shooting. For example, the 7x57 and .308 usually shot to 300 meters, the .270 to 400 meters and the .300 Win. mag. to 500 meters. I shoot enough that I have a strong working idea where to hold on game out in the field. I was able to hold off on a cow elk at a laser measured 530 yards and drop her with the first shot. Roughly 3 months of practice usually twice a week with that rifle was what making that shot possible.
Paul B.

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

Today the wife said, "I want to shoot the .25-06 at the 375-yard gong. At 10:00 a.m. we trekked in the Polaris to the hayfield range. Shooting an 87 grain handload, she scored two hits on the far gong from the shooting bench. Nuff said. From now on nothing is safe in that BIG field.

Adam

[jalewi]

If you are into ipod/iphone apps. you can download the same apps the snipers use built by Knight Armament Company. They have a few options--a simple one for dummies like me for around 4 bucks with simple windage, yardage and then they have the one with all the bells and whistles that the snipers use that has temp, curvature of the earth, etc. etc. I think this one is 20 or 30 bucks. Even the cheap one has built in ballistic charts for multiple calibers and bullet wts. Neat little tool.

[Ridge Runner]

started working on extending my range since 1981, the last few years I have been taking a couple whitetails a year at 600-800 yards, and normaly get 1 in the 1K range or beyond.
I sight dead on at 300, then dial up from there using exbal on a pda, after having tweaked the datta to fit my trajectory. I've burnt up my share of barrels and alot of ammo to get to this stage, hope the money holds out till I'm comfortable at 1 mile.
RR

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

What caliber are you shooting? I am surprised how long the time of flight is at 400 and 600 yards and how long it takes the sound of "Whomp" from the 47-pound steel gong to get back to the firing line.

I wonder what happens when a deer takes a step forward while grazing and the bullet is enroute? Care to comment?

Adam

[Ridge Runner]

sure,
I shoot a 7mm Allen Mag, it tuns a 160 nosler downrange at 3575 fps, 500 yard TOF is just under 1/2 sec. just shooting isn't all there is to long range hunting, you study the game enough to know by its actions when you have the window for the shot, its not that hard to tell, my longest shot to date had a TOF of 1.6 sec.
but in the event of a bad hit, deer do not sprint off in a blind terror like they do when the muzzle blast is in they're face, they seldom even move more than 30-40 feet.
My 2 bad hits that I have had since 1981 have went like this, one hit too far back at 611 yards due to the light wasn't good appeared to be broadside when in fact she was quartering too, she made 3 jumps and bedded down, I gave it 1/2 moa of up and the next round took her through the head.
The other was 1350 yds, hit a bit back in the liver, ran 30 yards layed down and was dead in less than a minute, that 2 out of 51 deer shot at beyond 400 yards, hows your average?
RR

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

I do not shoot beyond 250-300 yards with a .270, .30-06, 7mm RM, .264 WM or a .35 Whelen. In the last 23 years here on the farm I have watched many deer. The erratic movements of those deer convinces me a long time of flight for a bullet could change the bullet's point of impact on those deer. I haven't lost a deer yet, but I have passed up some long shots for good reasons; light, wind or a running deer.

Adam

[Ridge Runner]

Ridge Runner,

I do not shoot beyond 250-300 yards with a .270, .30-06, 7mm RM, .264 WM or a .35 Whelen. In the last 23 years here on the farm I have watched many deer. The erratic movements of those deer convinces me a long time of flight for a bullet could change the bullet's point of impact on those deer. I haven't lost a deer yet, but I have passed up some long shots for good reasons; light, wind or a running deer.

Adam

its not hard, only shoot when they're head is up, in the last 40 years I've taken somewhere beyond 200, I've lost 2.
RR

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

What do you use for a powder charge to get 3575 FPS in a 7MM and 160 grain bullet and what do you use for a scope? I worked a few Summers with a surveyor and know how far 1,000 and 1,350 yards really are. I also went to Camp Perry twice on my state high power rifle team and learned how to gauge the wind and light to 600 yards for my Match M14.

It seems to me that our PA deer are on the verge of moving off when they bring their heads up. At least that is what I observed in the last 23 years here on the farm. When you do another 1350 yard shot, will you have witnesses? Personally, I have a hard time calling long range shooting at live animals "Hunting", especially when my neighbor (a mathematician) has told me that a 1350 -yard shot on a deer was impossible."

Let's hear from you and give me the powder type and charges that defy GRAVITY and LOGIC. Your 1350-yard shot equals the Moon Landing metrics. IF a "Puff" of wind came betwixt you and the deer, there would have been NO HIT! I suspect your long range hits are computer keyboard BS. DID that 1350 Yard "Hit" occur when there were THREE FEET per YARD??? If you choose to shoot 1350 YARDS, the target is ready for a redo, 10-4? Just send me a PM and we will set up the shot, Right?

I defer to your answers to powder charges and wind conditions on the day you "Scored" at 1350 yards. I can set up 1350 yard conditions (LASERED) with the cooperation of my neighbor (Who owns 160 acres) and I can place my deer decoy in his FAR hayfield in case you wish to duplicate your 1350 yard shot. When are you up for doing the do? Please email me because lots of guys hereabouts want to watch. 10-4?

Adam

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

I just heard from my other neighbor about your 1350+/- deer impact. He is skeptical, so please give us powder charge, primer, scope model and type and your "Hold Over" and the velocity/direction of the prevailing wind.

It is NOT we do not believe you, it just seems you are unbelieveable. We await your EVIDENCE? I have inquired with Guiness to see if your 1350 YARD deer impact should be in the record books. Ok? The WORLD awaits your input. ARE You STILL entering the Record Books with your LONG RANGE stuff? Do you have verifible WITNESSES, or just your BS?

Adam

[skeet]

Daaauuum Adam.. Tell us what you really think! I've seen a few really long shots..Really Long. But to be honest it would be tough out here on the prairie country to shoot that far. In the Mountains very possible as the wind is a bit less up there..most of the time

[Ridge Runner]

adam,
there were 6 witnesses to the shot, want phone numbers?
I'm shooting a 7mm Allen Mag, (sort of a 7mm/338 Lapua AI) charge is 110 gr of WC 872 behnd a 160 gr nosler accubond which will run through the chrony at 3575fps.
Reguardless to what your friends and neighbors say, its quite possible and happens often, stroll on over to www.longrangehunting.com or you can read a bit in the beyond 500 yards forum here. http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?t=47765
If you think its BS, its because you lack the comprehension of how it could be done, let alone the skill and ability to do it.
RR

[Gil Martin]

More shooters should practice at longer ranges to test their capabilities and that of their rifles. All the best...
Gil

[Ridge Runner]

where ya at adam? ya found out its not BS and your neighbor mathematician and the other neighbor haven't a clue, so what happened to your official opinion that I was BS'in?
RR

[bigbrother]

This argument is humorous to me.

RR...keep on keeping on and there's no need to defend yourself.

Adam, if you have a safe place to shoot that far, maybe we should put together a HuntChat long range clinic. Instead of being a "you have to prove to me"...maybe we should make it a "let me show you how". I would be willing to bet that YOU could hit it that far away with the right equiptment. If you're willing to host maybe we can get multiple members to come out and shoot and learn.


Others....any thoughts? Anyone else willing to participate.

[Adam Helmer]

bigbrother,

I think you put the final summary to this thread. I do have strong opinions on this long range "hunting" subject. In the last 23 years here on the farm, I have had non-residents set up on a ridge 800 yards North of my biggest (and POSTED) hayfield and then shoot at any deer they see in my field and elsewhere. A few years ago those Long RANGERS succeeded in nearly blasting off the left hind leg of a doe in the center of my posted hayfield. I dropped her, tagged her and then went and chatted with the long range boys with the assist of the Game Warden.

This is the basis of my experience with long range hunters. I do not call it hunting when live animals are merely targets. Long range shooting takes skill and so does hunting. I have nothing more to say on this matter except, if I offended anyone, I apologize.

Adam

[Ridge Runner]

If I can get there and back on 300 bucks worth of gas I'm in
RR

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

You could NEVER have the same light, wind and mirage conditions at 1,350 yards, so save your gas money. IF you are such a Great shot at long range, why are you NOT the U.S. High Power Rifle champion? They hold the matches every year at Camp Perry, Ohio. Go for it!

For far too many years I have seen Long Rangers CRIPPLE deer here on my farm. I suspect you forgot Gravity ALWAYS works and the wind is unpredictable. Since you are GREAT, Please go be our NEXT U.S. High Power Rifle Champion. It is easily within your grasp, Eh, WOT? LOL! Just BECAUSE you say you made a 1,350 yard "Bad" shot does not make it so, nor is it repeatable under current enviornmental conditions. LOL! You will fare better at Camp Perry, Ohio against other Rifle Shooters. How many Long Range Rifle matches have you shot where the targets are STATIONERY??? Are you your State Champion??? If not, why not?

Adam

[Ridge Runner]

adam, read the thread in the beyond 500 yard forum, (7mm AM at .77 miles) I set the scope for windage, parralax, and elevation for each shot, if its questionable I take a spotter shot to be sure I figured right. I use a windmeter, barrometer, and a PDA running a ballistic program for every shot. my program is tweaked from actual shooting to match my POA under different conditions, its not hard to change the POI to hit POA if you measure the conditions that effect bullet flight and adjust to them.
with the technology available today, its not difficult, just takes effort and dedication to get good at it.
RR

[Adam Helmer]

Ridge Runner,

Are you for real? DO you PLACE the TARGET deer in PARK so they do not move one-inch in your .77 miles calculation? Your BS calculations in NO way INFLUENCES Deer Movement, RIGHT?

I will not say anymore on this subject UNTIL I see you are the NEXT U. S. High Power Rifle Champion and then I will know you GOT IT RIGHT against other Knowledgeable shooters and NOT dumb animals you use for long range target practice. I assume you are NOT your state's High Power Rifle Champion. Since deer MOVE when they will despite you technology, how can you connect on deer at LONG RANGE? I have seen the Long Range results on FREE ROAMING deer here on my farm and involve the Game Wardens when jackasses shoot AT and RARELY kill deer on my POSTED land. Lots of deer are seriously maimed by Long Rangers. I know what I have seen and will not reply again to you. 10-4? Be well.

Adam

[Ridge Runner]

why is it so hard for you to believe that you can determine when a deer isn't gonna move for a second and a half by watching it, ever hear of "body language"?
when an experienced long range hunter has a deer in the scope, there are alot of things going on watching the deers travel path, checking wind in the path of the bullet, looking at the deer looking for that shot window, more times than not the deer walks off before you get that opprotunity, but when it works out, its a rush like you have never had, and by your refusal to reason or remotely accept the possibility that with the right knoledge and equipment its not extremely diffacult, I don't think you ever will.
wanna see how its possible? go onto you tube and search shawn carlock, he explains it well and does it even better, or you can just beligerently set behind your keyboard and attempt to ridecule those who are not too smart to learn, its your choice.
thats it, I'm tired of wasteing time explaining hows and whys to someone who hasn't a clue how its done but just knows its wrong.
RR

[Ridge Runner]

Adam any question you could possibly ask is answered here, and you'll also find a few attitudes like yours there
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/278360-fulfilled-my-lifetime-goal-today.html
RR