Some gun clubs will not allow silhouette targets!

[Adam Helmer]

My CCW classes are small and carefully screened. I used to take one or two students to my very rural gun club nearby where I have been a member and a Board member, off and on, since 1988. Even though we have 150 members, most days there is no one on the firing line at the 6 benches. I used to take my handgun students as Guests to the club. It was a relaxed rural atmosphere to spend an hour or two. Not any longer!

The club Board voted to FORBID "All silhouette or humanoid targets" and to FORBID "ALL Tactical handgun instruction that involves drawing from the holster." I mentioned to the Board before the vote that silhouette targets are merely targets and were always taken down at the end of the shooting session. Further, I advised that drawing from the holster on the firing line was ok for 10 years when I instructed 100 agents twice a year in New England and it was always done without incident. The Board is stacked with clay bird shooters and this local gun club has become the trap club for a team of teen shooters. The Board voted to ban all humanoid targets. Said targets are ok so long as the "head" is torn off before posting on the target backer. Can I hear a POLITICAL CORRECTNESS here?

Fortunately, I own a farm with many rolling acres and now run my classes on my land. I select my students carefully and we shoot at the B-27 in tact. Oh, I forgot to say the rural gun club has BANNED Rapid Fire, NO ONE can fire more than 3 shots in 15 seconds. I advised the Board, if all 6 benches are occupied with shooters adhering to 3 shots in 15 seconds, we will have 18 shots in 15 seconds, so what was gained? No Answer from the trap shooter Clique!

Adam

[Gil Martin]

Sounds like you are better off on your own land. All the best...
Gil

[Dan Morris]

I can still use em....just gotta trash em when I leave!
Dan

[Mr. 16 gauge]

The state of MI does not allow "humaniod" or sillouette targets on it's public ranges; however, they will allow a large rectangle with a small square where the 'head' is...and these can easily be made from an old brown paper grocery bag.

I agree....it is very "P.C.", but when this crap happens, we must learn to adapt.

I draw my own animal targets.....I asked if those were banned or not; as of right now, no....but who knows in the future?

As for the drawing from the holster & rapid fire: There are NO ranges here in Michigan, that I know of, public OR private, that allow either. Rather than being "P.C.", I think it has more to do with liability and insurance issues. If you see the number of holes in the ceiling at the one indoor range I shoot at, you might just agree. Seen all sorts of stupidity at various ranges, so I can cut them some slack on that issue.

As for rapid shooting and drawing from a holster: I just wait until after deer season and go shoot on one of the state game areas...as long as I have a hunting license and an article of hunter orange clothing on me, I'm good to go. The parking area that I practice at is shaped like a big bowl, so the chances of a stray bullet are miniscule, if not impossible, and the earth is soft enough for a good backstop. I just bring my own ammo and targets and I spend an afternoon shooting.

Maybe you need to bring up that the trap shooters need to use steel shot in order to be just as "PC" as the nonhumaniod target issue is....after all, they should really be going 'green' and not polluting, if they truly want a good range.

...........just sayin';):D

[buckhunter]

We have the same thing here. It started out that you couldn't shoot pictures, then migrated to black silhouette targets (had to be green) now its only regular targets. So far there is not a ban on animal targets but I can see that coming.

At one point we were able to shoot just about anything laying on the bank. Cans , plastic bottles, charcoal,etc however over the years that escalated to TV sets, porpane tanks (da) and the likes so now its only clays and bulls eye targets.

I do agree with the tacital shooting. I can see some of the nitwits at my club blowing off a toe or worse yet, mine. Sorry Adam.

Its great being PC.

[Larryjk]

It is a shame that people who don't participate in certain sports (tactical shooting practice) start taking steps to eliminate it by PC changes. Perhaps it would be better to quit using the term "tactical" on everything involving more than one shot. Most of the "tactical" shooting practice I see is a lot of "wannabes". There is nothing wrong with practicing shooting a course that has several targets. Try inviting one of the trap shooters to come to the pistol range and see what is going on.

[powell&hyde]

They banned sillouette targets at the local range last year, and them tree huggers (Sierra Club) started this spring on getting animals targets banned also. Now the wife and I are looking at buying some property in the county just to have a place to shoot.

[kt]

this still blows my mind. what is the whole point of practicing with a defensive pistol? so when it hits the fan you can shoot a round bullseye? last time this came up here lots some folks said they just folded the head of the target under. the rapid fire issue is driving me to look for a new club also. they say its to appease the neighbors who built mansions in what was once a cornfield. they want us to count to 3 between shots. now i dont shoot fast up there but, try counting to 3 on the pistol range.. it's annoying as hell. and yes its no different then if all six benches are firing together from a noise perspective.
kt

[popplecop]

I would like to say this is unbelieveble, but can't. A lot of human type shiluetes are pale grreen now. This way if we get an invasion of aliens from outerspace we will be prepared.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

A lot of human type shiluetes are pale grreen now. This way if we get an invasion of aliens from outerspace we will be prepared.

If they are green, does that mean that they aren't ripe yet?:D

[Larryjk]

The biggest stupid decision is the 3 second pause between shots. Trap shooters came up with that idea. I am a trap shooter but am not stupid yet. Any type of target will get you practice on getting your sight picture and taking the shot. Round, square, rectangular; they are all targets to be addressed and shot. But the 3 second rule is meant to keep "tactical" pistol shooters out of the range. Bullseye is okay apparently. See if they can agree to an arrangement where you can ignore the 3 second rule at pre-determined times.

[kt]

larry that is a great idea actually. i see the president almost every time i shoot i will have to ask about that. as far as tactical shooters more members of any upstanding variety is a good deal for a club. funny thing about the trap set up is when they have a full set of guys for 5 stand trap it is fast and loud. lol and they shoot first thing saturday morn. i need to relocate, but i think those of us who try come to find that the grass isnt always greener. i know one club that lets you shoot damn near anything. down fall is this club atracts damn near any body. guess i need to get out of the city :)
kt

[Larryjk]

A "War Story". Back in the early 60s, when I was in college and a member of the Lincoln Rifle and Pistol Club, our deeded range was just west of Lincoln Air Force Base. Their housing finally came right next to our fence. If we shot on Sunday morning (after flyboys big night at the officers club) They raised hell about the noise. They even started looking over the houses, looking for bullet holes. We had a dirt berm built that was about 12 feet high along the fence and went to shooting no earlier than 10:00 am on Sundays. The Air Force agreed and we didn't have any more trouble. But yours is an internal problem. You need interaction with the trap shooters. It is tougher to screw over a friend.

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Points well taken. But, unless a CCW person carries their CCW handgun in hand at all times, they will occasionally NEED to draw a loaded gun from a holster. I am not talking Quick Draw here, rather a conditioned, smooth draw from the holster. If the proper holster is used, the trigger is covered until the handgun clears the holster and NONE of my 100 students per session ever shot of their toes or mine in over 10 years. That is part of the training I impart.

CCW requires people train on drawing from a concealed hoster. If liability is an issue, have the folks sign a Release from Liability while on club grounds. As federal agents, all users of Boston's Moon Island pistol range had to sign waivers before we could shoot our qualification course on Boston's range.

Liability comes in all shapes and sizes. The local sky diving club in NH REQUIRED all divers sign Releases from Liability before they could board the plane. Same for deep sea divers before they could get on the boat at quay side.

I carefully select my CCW students; dufuses are rejected out-of-hand.

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Points well taken. But, unless a CCW person carries their CCW handgun in hand at all times, they will occasionally NEED to draw a loaded gun from a holster. I am not talking Quick Draw here, rather a conditioned, smooth draw from the holster. If the proper holster is used, the trigger is covered until the handgun clears the holster and NONE of my 100 students per session ever shot of their toes or mine in over 10 years. That is part of the training I impart.

Adam;
Please know that you are preaching to the choir!;) I don't disagree that those who carry for CCW purposes might someday have to draw from a concealed position; this is why I practice with an unloaded gun in my home. It's also the reason that I go to the state land and practice as I do, when I can.....
However, you can sign all the liability waivers you want....if some idiot (and lets face it, there is a HUGE population of them out there) were to draw and shoot HIS toe off, that's one thing.....if he draws and kills the man in the next stand, that's another. And while it may be HIS fault, you can bet that in our litigious society, it's not the idiot individual that will be sued, but the owner of the establishment where it happened, because HE is the one with the business (money). This is why Winchester and Marlin now have those stupid thumb safeties on their latest lever guns.....people can't be trusted to not point a firearm at someone. One of those stems from a lawsuit here in MI or WI where a kid killed his dad because he shot at "noise"....whirled and fired and killed his old man. Anybody, and I mead ANYBODY, who has taken a hunter's safety course knows you don't shoot at 'noise" (and supposedly this young mad took said course), yet the lawyers argued that if this 'safety' was on the gun, then the 'accident' wouldn't have happened....and the firearms manufacturer (i.e. deep pockets) had to pay for something that wasn't their fault.
IMHO, liability waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.....I've seen too many good attorneys find ways around them. If it's banned from the get go, then it's a lot harder to sue the owner of the establishment for "neglect".
Sadly, this is the world we now live in.....................:(

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

I am glad you are with me "in the Choir." As for Liability Waivers, unfortunately the sky diving Instructor (who signed his on that fateful day) died on his 3,003th sky dive. The Quality of a Liability Waiver is predicated on the quality of the Lawyer who draws it up. We all know some lawyers are at the top of their class, some in the middle and some at the bottom.

As for serious CCW folks: If they cannot draw loaded guns from their holsters at their gun club, WHERE can they do so BEFORE the need in Gravest Extreme on the street? The state has given them permission to carry a loaded gun on the street in a holster and now some gun club says they cannot draw from that same holster and "acquire" a target as they may have to on the street?

Gun clubs should be anxious to accomodate CCW folks rather than say "No holster draw because a mope shot the range ceiling!" There are many mopes driving cars, running chainsaws, navigating motor boats, etc. Serious CCW folks cannot rid the world of mopes, but if they cannot draw and fire at their gun club, where can they do "Live Fire?"

I own 60 very hilly acres; half wooded and half hayfileds. We fire everything from .22 CB caps to a Barrett .50 caliber semi-auto rifle SAFELY. I know we are friends and I have no axe to grind with you. All my CCW folks draw from their holsters and do double taps on a B-27 silhouette target. It may be unsafe for any mope to do likewise on the average gun club range. I do not know, I am not instructing there. I have very serious CCW students and they leave my farm ready for whatever comes their way. When the general public becomes involved, then we MUST realize that the best we can hope for is the "LOWEST COMMON DEMONINATOR", and, I agree Mr. 16 gauge, THAT is very scary.

Be well.

Adam

As for "Idiots," those bullet holes in the indoor range ceiling you mentioned in a prior post were NOT due to holsters of any type! I suggest it was due to improper training BEFORE the mopes went to "Live Fire."

[skeet]

Mr 16 is sure right..waivers are just something to make somebody feel good..otherwise ...worthless. I had a friend way back yonder..a bit older. He got a Colt 22 Single Action around 1960-61 or so. Got himself a quick draw rig and promptly shot a hole in the toe of his shoe..within a month he had shot himself in the leg...not once..but twice..the first time just grazing his calf..the second time in the thigh.. Stupid is not easily cured I guess. That being said.. I was working in the yard yesterday..and made what I consider one of the fastest draws I will ever make.. Damn near stepped on a rattler.. I drew and fired in a nice crisp move..and even hit the sucker..course I was using shot loads..LOL. He was just a little pissed off. I carry a single action Uberti 45 when working in the garden or yard(so does my wife). Don't see 'em very often near the house..but I ain't very trustin when it comes to rattle snakes

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

The Waiver PREVENTED the deceased instructor's wife from suing the sky diving club, as I recall. If you know some waivers are/were "worthless", I suggest you find better lawyers. LOL.

As for your unlucky "quick draw" friend, his lack of skill is not an indictment of serious folks who need to draw from a holster. If he cuts off his leg with a chain saw, will Stihl be LIABLE? NO law or Waiver can fix STUPID! But, stupid folks are NOT the general public and there is no correlation between mopes and serious folks as your rattler encounter proves.

Remove guns from mopes, but do not impose Group Punishment for acts committed by brain-dead mopes.

Adam

[skeet]

Adam the waiver didn't prevent her from suing. It may have prevented her from trying..Did she hire a lawyer?? or was the threat of the waiver a deciding factor in her decision on whether or not to sue?? Waivers are just that..a prevention..but as you know most things like that can be broken..with enough time and money. That is why we have lawyers

Now as to stupid folks...oh they are the general public..the general public is very stupid. I dealt with them on a daily basis. Adam..we all do stupid things..even you and me(well maybe not me LOL). Most asccidents are caused by doing stupid things. How many times have you seen women doing their makeup..men reading the paper etc etc while driving?? The general public does stupid things constantly. We cannot get away from stupid and that is why group punishment is imposed. One day either you or I may do a brain dead thing..and if you say you've never done one.. BS I say...LOL..you may not have ever gotten hurt or caught but you've done 'em. We all have

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Remove guns from mopes, but do not impose Group Punishment for acts committed by brain-dead mopes.

Adam...how do you remove a gun from a mope? Last time I saw, there is no law against people being stupid, unless they do something criminal with it. Of course, every time I bring up having some kind of 'test' before allowing someone a hunting license or gun, I get lambasted for 'curtailing freedom', get accused of being a "tree hugger', ect.
From where I sit, I think you are rather fortunate in that you can pick and chose who you will train and let shoot on your private range; that's a luxury that most folks running a range as a business cannot afford....he must take all comers, or go broke in the process. And he really doesn't have that much to go on to tell him whether or not this individual is a total doofus our reasonably safe and intelligent.

If he cuts off his leg with a chain saw, will Stihl be LIABLE?

Was Winchester liable? Apparently, they were....court says so! That's why they had to pay out millions of dollars and now put those stupid safeties on lever actions (all have 'em now). You and I both know that it's not right or just or fair.....it's just THE LAW. And I can almost guarantee you that if someone here in MI cut his leg off with a Stihl, they would be sued.....and Stihl would probably loose. That's what's wrong with our society today.....we have for too long allowed people to blame their stupidity on things other than, well.....their stupidity.

Gun clubs should be anxious to accomodate CCW folks rather than say "No holster draw because a mope shot the range ceiling!"

Yes, they should......but they don't.....and that's a shame.

As for "Idiots," those bullet holes in the indoor range ceiling you mentioned in a prior post were NOT due to holsters of any type! I suggest it was due to improper training BEFORE the mopes went to "Live Fire."

Never thought to imply that it was.....and I agree that it was a novice that probably watched too much TV. Seen too many 'gangsta' idiots shooting their guns sideways at one local range.....I don't go there anymore.

[Larryjk]

Yes, people do some of the dumbest things. But the only way to make them acceptable is with some honest training and sympathy. Don't browbeat them for stupidity; explain how what they did is dangerous and show them how to do it right, and then let them practice in controled conditions. Our city owned indoor range doesn't allow draw from the holster until they have demonstrated ability on the outdoor range. Naturally, the police agencies don't have to demonstrate ability and they have put most of the holes in the baffles. No group is perfect.

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

I guess I have NO good answer. Let us review: The State licenses CCW carry of honest citizens. Some gun clubs FORBID "Holster Draw" on the firing line. So what does a CCW person do to "groove" holster draw? I suppose the fortunate few come to my farm and receive proper training. My name and phone number is with NRA and they are permitted to give out that information. Only one person was rejected by me so far.

I have instructed college professors, doctors, priests, etc., and all thanked me for the training. My classes are small and conducted on my farm in the backyard with my Lori dog as Range Officer. It may come down to the fact that folks who want to shoot silhouette targets or shoot from the holster must go buy enough land out-of-town to do so. I am glad I bought 60 acres in 1988 with a mountain out back for a backstop. I have given up on PC gun club politics.

Be well.

Adam