Caliber question

[GoodOlBoy]

I have read and been told that 36 caliber will work both for small game and whitetail. I would like your opinions and info on your experiences.

Thanks

GoodOlBoy

[Skinny Shooter]

With everything being perfect a 36cal could do it but for me I won't go less than a 50.
My Pennsylvania rifle is a 54 and the Bess is a 75.

[skeet]

Minimum of 45 for deer..50 is better..36 will kill 'em but not the best. I use a 50

[jplonghunter]

GOB

.36 was designed for squirrel,rabbit not for deer IMHO.

jplonghunter

[Adam Helmer]

GOB,

The question has already been answered for PA hunters; the minimum legal caliber is .44 for deer. A .36 caliber ball weighs about 70 grains and the T/C Max charge is listed in their booklet at 60 grains of BP.

The .36 may work in a pinch for deer, but a bigger caliber is fairer to the deer, IMHO.

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Minimum caliber requirement here in MI is .40 (where they came up with that, I don't know.....I don't think I've ever seen a .40 cal muzzleloader). I remember reading Sam Fadala's book on muzzleloading, and he said that the .32 & .36 calibers were good for things like turkey, coyotes, and javelina, but not deer, for the reasons Adam sited (ball weight, amount of powder).

I'm just curious as to where you might have read such a statement, and if they were refering to traditional muzzleloaders or possibly inlines? I have seen deer shot with pistol bullets from inlines, and all I can say is that I think this practice should be banned....huge gaping holes that were not fatal, and a long, drawn out tracking/trailing job. Muzzleloaders are supposed to be close range weapons....stretching the distance with pistol bullets isn't helping the 'sport' any.:(

[Joe Boleo]

I would use a .45 caliber in a pinch with a maxi-ball. My preference would be a .50 or a.54. Take care...
Joe

[skeet]

I have seen deer shot with pistol bullets from inlines, and all I can say is that I think this practice should be banned....huge gaping holes that were not fatal, and a long, drawn out tracking/trailing job. Muzzleloaders are supposed to be close range weapons....stretching the distance with pistol bullets isn't helping the 'sport' any.:(

Well I've shot a few(35-40) deer with pistol bullets with my muzzleloaders..mostly inlines. Never had a "gaping" hole or any such thing. Every one was a one shot kill. I had more problems in the past with maxiballs than any bullets. I did however use the heavier weights of pistol bullets. Found that most of the lightweights just didn't shoot well..didn't stabilize. If you find gasping holes in an animal it is probably indicative of a lightweight projectile shot at higher velocities at very close range. About the most velocity you can get in a muzzle loader would be 2400 ft per second. As far as muzzle loading being a close range "sport"?? What is close range?? The right projectile in the right caliber is easily good up to 200 yards. Now then..most hunters aren't good up to 200 yards....sad to say and as far as calibers..the originals used 36 for deer and bear...but there was a very good reason. First it was what they had..and the game wasn't being pursued like it is today..thirdly...those people knew how to track. My father in law was born in 1904 in West "By God" Virginia..shot his first deer in 1911 and he used of all things a 36 cal flinter. He used it until he left home at the age of almost 15 and got his first real job. He told me he helped keep the family in meat..from deer to rabbits and squirrels cause he was the youngest and father being dead his brothers were working. He also told me his first new rifle was a Savage 99 in 22 Hi Power and he killed many deer with it. In fact he used it to kill at least a couple of bears. He hunted at times for the logging camps he worked for.

[Larryjk]

My son and son-in-law both shoot in-line 50 caliber muzzle loaders. They are scoped and they use 250 gr. pistol bullets in sabots. They can sit down any time and hit the gongs at 300 yards. I watched my son shoot a coyote in the head (that is all we could see) at about 300 yards. Yes, there was a large gaping hole but it was where the right side of the coyotes head used to be. He wasn't sure he could hit him, but gave it a try.
I have to bear down to hit the 300 yard gong with a 8mm Rem mag.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Skeet;
The problem as I see it is two fold....1.) they are using pistol bullets that are designed to expand at a certain velocity & range and 2.) they are buying the hype that these are 200+ yard weapons. Those pistol bullets shed velocity quickly, and when they arrive at the target they don't perform as they were designed to, and don't penetrate into the vitals as they should. You might be able to ring gongs or punch paper with them all day long, but they aren't efficient deer killers at that range/velocity.

What is close range?? The right projectile in the right caliber is easily good up to 200 yards.

Close range is 100-125 yards......and while the 'right' projectile' and 'right caliber' are probable/possible, you forgot to add "in the right hands of a capable marksman", which there are damn few of where I hunt!:mad: I've seen too many mangled up does late season that limp about until the cars or coyotes get 'em because some jackass thinks his 'inline' can shoot 'just as far and hard as his 06":mad: I don't care how many pellets you cram down the barrel....it can't and it WON'T!

[GoodOlBoy]

Keep in mind that I am a "marksman" and if I can't hit my mark I won't take the shot. I am only interested in shooting round ball I. A traditional flinter, not an online, etc. Most ranges around here (unless you hunt a pipeline or high line) are less than 75 yards, although I guess some might be shooting across a cow pasture as well. I was brought up a shotgunner, learned early to be a rifleman, and I am not interested in bp so that I can turn around and try to magnumize it, add a jacketed pistol bullet, etc. I want to cast my own round ball, shoot my own round ball, and bring home meat. I am also not a sport hunter and I dang sure don't subscribe to the spray and pray method of hunting.

Thanks for the info..

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

Some of the problems with the in-line shooters is that they feel their in-line guns are better and---they are. There are also some in-line shooters that aren't any better shots with those than they would be with their whiz-bang 28-32 WSSSSM cartridge guns. They don't shoot enough of anything to be a good shot. But there are others who do shoot often and can hit what they shoot at and put the bullet in a vital spot.

[powell&hyde]

I have used a traditional smoke-pole front stuffer for just about 30 years in 50 cal during our mz season. Cast my own using a Lyman mold, brings me the deer home just about every year. Imo, I think 36cal would be to light on deer.

[skeet]

Mr 16..It doesn't matter what you may believe.... a good Encore and quite a few other inlines ARE 200 yard guns...and as I said in the previous post not all can hit a deer that far..And as Larry said..in the right hands even farther is more than possible. I personally use a 250 gr 45 cal Hornady XTP bullet in a MMP sabot in my 50 caliber inline. I do not use black powder or 777 ... I use snmokeless(5744) and I push the bullet to about 2400 ft per second(Actual chronoed speeds) and have NEVER had a bullet blow up on a deer..possibly inside but most have gone completely through. Longest kill was at 194 yds checked with my Leica rangefinder. It like most of them was a bang flop. Closest was at about 25 ft. Accuracy of the load is very good with under 2 inch groups as far as 150 yds. Never tested past that. A friend also shoots the exact same loads as I do and he has taken approx 80 deer so far..all one shot kills and as he told me an hour ago by phone never a blown up bullet and only 6 recovered bullets. His longest shot was a 230 yd shot which took four or five steps and fell over dead. He lives in Md and can take approx 18 deer with a firearm every year. He also does crop damage shooting...mostly with the Muzzleloader or a Contender in 357 Max. He is an excellent shot with both..in fact better than me. He has had a few groupd in a 1/2 inch with the muzzleloader..Not me..an inch is a good one for me..BTW the rifle is a Savage

[skeet]

GOB..even if you wait till they get inside 50 yds..using a roundball use at least a 45 cal. a 36 RB is not very heavy and will not be a good killer. I killed a few with a 45 RB in a TC Hawken..but found the 50 RB to be much better...MUCH. I also liked using a roundball but just gotta say..a maxi or minie or other bullets are certainly better killing projectiles

[Mr. 16 gauge]

O.K., Skeet....we've been down this road before.:rolleyes: Once again, your right and I'm wrong.....I should just discount whatever my eyes and other sense tell me, and everything I see and experience is a lie, and your never wrong.:mad:

Peace out.

[skeet]

Nope I am quite frequently wrong.. now.... do you have an inline??..have you shot pistol bullets in it??..has this blow up happened to you?? Do you know what they were shooting?? Not saying you are wrong..but I have never observed the problems you speak of personally and I do shoot those nasty ol pistol bullets in an inline at pretty high velocities. I have shot quite a few deer with them... HAVE YOU?? Personal observation at the time of the shot etc is usually the best. Not mad..Just speaking about MY personal observations while taking quite a few deer. I guess what I am saying is if you haven't had these things happen to you..then you know NOT of what you speak,. You see a deer with a blown up spot on it's side and ergo it was caused by a hunter shooting long range with an inline. Late season??...Heck it could've been shot by a guy with a 243 or whatever.. in rifle season. .. Sorry you got mad because I was pointing this out to you. I personally had a round ball hit the point of a deer's shoulder..never really penetrated..He didn't get away....It was my shooting not the roundball. How many deer have you seen wounded by archers?? Should we discontinue archery hunting for deer? I have seen quite a few and it ain't pretty.. I surely don't condemn the arrow..I condemn the P*ss poor archer..

[skeet]

Skeet;
The problem as I see it is two fold....1.) they are using pistol bullets that are designed to expand at a certain velocity & range and 2.) they are buying the hype that these are 200+ yard weapons. Those pistol bullets shed velocity quickly, and when they arrive at the target they don't perform as they were designed to, and don't penetrate into the vitals as they should. You might be able to ring gongs or punch paper with them all day long, but they aren't efficient deer killers at that range/velocity.



Just want to point out..My 250 gr 45 cal bullet has more energy at 200 yds than the self same bullet out of the 45 LC handgun at the muzzle..and it won't penetrate or expand at those ranges? Are you saying that the same bullet out of a handgun is ok at close range and out of an inline it isn't?? I would say the worst scenario would be that pistol bullet at high velocity at really short range...and I've never had that problem myself..Myself!! Not a Joe Blow a month ago.somewhere in the woods.. Roll your eyes all you want..

[GoodOlBoy]

figured as much skeet, but that's why I asked. I was leaning towards a 50 (always like the 50 hawken) but been thinking about a 50 in a Kentucky rifle. I just had to ask about the 36 as I had read several reports and articles, I would have thought it was light, but knowing a 22lr CAN (didn't say should) take whitetail I wasn't certain. It stuns me how expensive traditional flinters are.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Heck the price of everything stuns me most of the time. Had a chance to buy a six shooting 45 auto today for 550 and turned it down..2 reasons it was stainless and I don't really care for stainless and it had adjustable sights which are really not necessary for a carry gun..thirdly it is a duplicate of the Para-ordnance I alreay have...and it is a LOT prettier. GOB I'd stick with the Hawken style but that is my preference not yours.. Look on the Lyman site..they quite often have refurbs of their blackpowder guns.. Good buys and well made

[GoodOlBoy]

where do you find the refurbs on their sight Skeet? I would not be opposed at ALL to a refurbed great plains flinter.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

GOB they are listed under specials at the top left hand of the Lyman site..they don't have a flinter right now. They do have a Great Plains percussion for under 400 For a 700 buck rifle that ain't bad.. And they are a nice rifle Equal to the T-C Hawken I think and still nothing wrong with a percussion gun.. Less problems in my opinion.. No flints to find..no need for 4F and two powder horns..no frizzen probs . But the flinters are fun..most of the time. I am not a traditionalist for certain

[powell&hyde]

GOB, that lymans great plains is a heck of a steal. Its listed as refurbished because barrel or stock has blemishes and they couldn't sell it as new.

[skeet]

Just a word of warning to all.. I do not think any manufacturer recommends the use of Hodgdon Triple 7 in any traditional style muzzleloaders. Please correct this statement if you have documentation to the contrary. It is after all a type of Smokeless and runs to much higher pressures in normal use..Black and Pyrodex are both ok though.. Something that I remember being sent to me by Thompson Center right after 777 was introduced. And something that I do remember..Pyrodex pellets are harder to ignite so I always added about 5 grains of 3For 4F before loading them.. Well it worked for me in my T C Hawken...speaking of which..look in the Swap and Sell later today..I am going to put the ol smokepole up for sale I think.. Haven't shot it in quite a while. Just want to look it over and maybe take a picture or two..

[GoodOlBoy]

Skeet what are you going to be asking for that Hawkins?

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Well I think 275 is a fair price..and that includes one of the muzzleloader kits with short starter powder measure patches nipple wrench spare nipple and Round Ball mould..all in the kit is new..except there is no handle for the mould( I musta used it in the past) but I am certain I have a mould handle here that will fit.. If we were close I'd even give ya some Pyrodex..but I ain't goin to Texas anytine soon...Less'n I buy Momma a new car offa ebay

[GoodOlBoy]

What caliber is it? I am very interested, IF I can get my wife interested.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

50 of course. I'll try to get a few pics taken today.. It is in good condition..hunted with but not beat up..

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

My hunting muzzleloaders are .50 and .54 since I prefer to use roundball for deer. When I take the .45 flinter out, she is stoked with 245 grain Maxis because I feel .45 RB is a bit light for deer.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

Sounds like a winner to me.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

skeet,

My hunting muzzleloaders are .50 and .54 since I prefer to use roundball for deer. When I take the .45 flinter out, she is stoked with 245 grain Maxis because I feel .45 RB is a bit light for deer.

Adam
And I would have to agree with ya on that . I shot a deer once with a 45 Roundball. Wasn't a long shot but I felt the same way.. 45 Maxi was probably much better. Ya know to be really honest.. I never got the maxi fever. Never got 'em to shoot all that great. I had a TC Hawken that had a roundball bbl with a 66 twist(IIRC) and it was a couple of inches longer. It shot RB really well. 50 cal and it shot 490 RBs in a thing called a poly patch?? Well... it was green and it held the roundball. It shot a lot better than a patched round ball for some reason. Sure easier to load too. BTW I liked Black rather than Pyrodex too. Never cared much for them pellets either. About the most I ever used was 100 gr of 3Fg..Would recock the hammer some of the time..but it was more accurate than 2Fg. A pain in the A$$ to clean. For some odd reason when the first muzzleloader season came in I really liked bein out there...Cold snow and pretty much alone..but that was the way it was where I hunted anyway. alone.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah been looking at Goex and Swiss prices online today alot, trying to sniff out local spots to buy... Not a lot around but I would imagine I can dig some up somewhere... Hope I can anyway.

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

I have a Hawken Half-stock 1864 I had made by a fellow that knows muzzleloaders. It is .54 caliber and really shoots well. I have used Goex, Pyrodex and Black Mag-3. Pyrodex is like shooting a flinter; never if it is going to go bang. Goex is dirty. Black Mag-3 is wonderful, but I don't believe it is available since they had the explosion last year. I have a couple others here that I want to try. Fun load is 80 grs of Goex and a patched ball. To clean up is 80 grs of Black Mag-3 and a patched ball. A 430 gr. maxi-ball and 100 grs of Goex is 14 inches low at 100 yards and hell on the shoulder if you aren't careful how you hold it.

[quigleysharps4570]

Minimum caliber requirement here in MI is .40 (where they came up with that, I don't know.....I don't think I've ever seen a .40 cal muzzleloader).


Kansas minimum is .39 caliber, .390-.395 roundball...which would be a .40 caliber. My little .40 longrifle with 70 grs. of 3f Goex and a .395 patched roundball kill deer. Not my choice though.