Stopping Power

[Trapper7]

In your opinion, what would have more stopping power, a 38 Special 158 grain bullet, or a 9MM?

[Mr. 16 gauge]

What type of bullet, in each? HP, lead, expanding, FMJ? Velocity is important, too...so what barrel lengths are we talking about?

[popplecop]

Both calibers have some very good loads available for them. Personally I used a hotter lighter HP in a .38 sp. As Mr. 16 ga. said not enough info supplied to make a suggestion. I've personally used both calibers over the years and have handguns in both calibers yet.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah even I (a known 9mm disliker) have to agree that's a REALLY open question. As mentioned are we talking about lead, Softpoint, FMJ, Hollowpoint, combination point(like the hollow points with the little plastic ball in them), saftey slugs, shot shells..... And what kind of grain weights do you want to compare? If lead, are you talking round nose, round nose flat point, Keith, wadcutter? Is your target wearing FBI Heavy cloth of equivalent (IE is it cold outside) or a t-shirt? Of course sometimes there is no way to know the answers because if we KNEW trouble was on the way we could just avoid it, but you CAN make educated guesses. IE it is august here and 109F+ every day. I can make the educated guess a t-shirt is gonna be about it, etc.

And while there are 100+ myths and theories on stopping power one of the questions asked in this should be what is the most accurate of X type bullet with Y type load power in my particular firearm?

You can carry a civil war cannon on your hip, but if you can't hit a barn with it in an emergency you better hope you can throw it hard enough to save yourself.

My favorite for hot weather ccw is a stainless 5 shot 38 special with hornady XTP 158 grain hp factory loads. I have never had to shoot this at a human being (Thank the good Lord and I pray I never have to) but I CAN tell you that they will tear the beegezeers out of a coyote eating on a dead calf, and most importantly through my firearm they are accurate. This is just an example btw I am not saying these are the best for your particular situation.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

For some unknown reason I carried an old and ugly S&W 64..about a 4 incher even in summer small of the back gun. Stainless and ugly anyway. Carried with if i remember correctly 38 spec 125 gr hollowpoints. Course I never had to shoot anybody with it thankfully but I got it used for a 100 bucks..sold it many years later for 200 and it wasn't any prettier than when I bought it.. I shot foxes groundhogs and a couple of close deer with it. Never failed. I dispatched a rabid coon with my S&W 669(??) and with all the jumping around etc etc had to shoot the blasted thing 6 times with 9mm hollowpoints. That gun resides in someone else's house these days and I carry a 6 inch 5 screw Highway Patrolman(or my Wilson combat) around the ranch most of the time stoked with 125 gr 38 Spec hollowpoints. Dispatched every coyote I have shot with it..one round one kill. I have even killed Jacks out to almost 100 yds with it.....somehow.

[Jack]

Other posters have quite validly pointed out that the specifics of what load is used in any caliber makes a lot of difference.
Beyond that, the 'stopping power' field is full of opinions, and not a lot of facts. There are all kinds of formulae out there that were derived by someone who already knew what answer they wanted, and set up a formula to suggest the formula writer was omniscient.
One actual fact I will bring up: expanding ammunition for handguns has improved to a startling degree in the last 20 years or so. 30 years ago (give or take) soft points and hollow points in handgun cartridges often didn't expand. That's according to me shooting them into a bunch of different test medium, so, you may have a different opinion. Handgun ammo today, a lot of it, actually does expand like the makers say it will, and quite consistently, too. Again, my observation.
The only advice I'll give on the subject of what's best is: pick a firearm you have confidence in, and practice a lot. Only hits count. You can have the newest, fanciest, most powerful, loudest firearm in the world, and if you miss with it, it does you no good at all.

[buckhunter]

I always compared a 38 spec to a 9 mm. If you are using a like bullet in a like weight I always thought they were were pretty much the same. The fmj in 9 mm has given it a bad rap and rightly so. I suspect that a fmj bullet in a 38 special would bet a bad rap also. Whatever you choose use good bullets and pratice, pratice, pratice.

[Adam Helmer]

Trapper7,

The guys gave very good replies about "stopping power." Much depends on the type of ammo, where you hit the target and how many times you shoot. Far too many folks expect a one-shot-stop, like in the movies. I suggest a double-tap, at minimum, before you decide the situation is neutralized when using a 9mm or .38 Special.

Adam

[Trapper7]

Right now my carry handgun is a S&W 637, 38 Special +P, 2 inch barrel. I'm currently loaded with 158 grain Winchester FMJ. I also reload for all my handguns, rifles, and shotguns. I don't have a 9MM, but have thought about one for a different carry handgun.

A fellow firearms instructor carries a 40 Caliber and feels a 9MM is too light for stopping power in any bullet weight or design. I wanted another opinion.

Sometime ago I saw where Federal was making a round that looked impressive with a bullet called hydrashock. I liked the bullet design. Do they still make it and what's your opinion of it?

[Larryjk]

I would compare based on normally carried bullet weight in each caliber. 158 is "normal" in the 38 Spec in semi-wadcutter or hp and 125 or 127 is "normal" in the 9mm with a fmj or maybe hp. Velocity is not much different. Even if you go to the 147 gr. in the 9mm you still have less energy. However, hitting the target still beats missing it rapidly.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

A fellow firearms instructor carries a 40 Caliber and feels a 9MM is too light for stopping power in any bullet weight or design. I wanted another opinion.

O.K., here is my opinion: I've worked in E.R.s, ICUs, and the O.R. for going on 30+ years now.....I can't comment on 'stopping power', but I CAN tell you that any round that is 9mm/38 cal (diameter) will NOT do your assailant any good with a 'good' (vital) hit. Remember: this is my personal opinion based on what I've seen and experienced.
Problem is, you can argue 'stopping power' till the cows come home, and the bottom line is....there is no way to definetively "prove" that one round is better than another.....each situation is different.
As for your 637: Check out the thread on this forum (concealed carry) called "More requests for CCW training" started by Adam Helmer. In it, you will see the round I carry in my .38 special (Colt Detective special); it is the old "FBI" load, and I feel quite confident that it is better than the FMJ you are currently carrying. I strongly suggest that you try a box....I think you will be pleased.

[Jack]

In a 2 inch 38, I'd look at a few loads. Hydra shock bullets are good, IMO. I believe Speer makes a load specifically for short barrel 38's, with a bullet of around 135 grains? Check that one out. The classic 38 load called the FBI load is a 158 SWC-HP lead bullet. I would also see what's available in the Winchester Silvertip line- those expand, IME.
There are a number of expanding bullet loads available, which, IMO, any of them are a better choice than the FMJ bullet you're using now, Trapper.
Try a few loads, see what shoots to the sights of your revolver.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

There are a number of expanding bullet loads available, which, IMO, any of them are a better choice than the FMJ bullet you're using now, Trapper.

+1 on that. Also, the "FBI load", I believe, is a +P loading.

I've had good luck with expansion testing on the Speer GDHP in all calibers, and some of the others I've tested (Federal Hydrashok, Winchester Silvertip, PMC Starfire, Remington Golden Saber, ect) have all performed well...the only ones I didn't get to expand at all were some .380 Remington Golden Sabers and some foreign .38 Super +P ammo that was somewhat anemic on the velocity side. The .380's I don't think expanded because of how the twist was in the firearm I tested (Walther PPk/S)

[Adam Helmer]

Trapper7,

Who advised you to carry "158 grain Winchester FMJ" in your S&W M637? I did not know you could buy 158 grain FMJ .38 Special ammo in 2011. You would be better equipped with 148 grain Wadcutters in your M637, IMHO!

One of my CCW students recently bought a S&W M637 2-inch 5-shot revolver. I took several boxes of factory .38 Special rounds to the bench and we checked where the fixed sights hit at 25 yards. The 158 grain LSWCHP "FBI Load" printed about 2 inches high. The 150 grain lead RN load was on point of aim, but is not a preferred defensive load in my view. The Super-Vel 110 grain JHP printed right on point of aim. We fired 10 rounds to confirm and I donated the remaining 110 grain JHP and WW 158 grain LSWCHP ammo to the student for duty carry.

I would advise that FMJ ammo is my last choice for Social Purposes, unless you wish to adhere to the Geneva Convention in which case the Bad Guy you encounter may be using jacketed hollow points! Load up with a better defensive round out of your M637. Since you reload, the Lyman Reloading Manual has a great 148 grain WC load with Unique that is a "stopper." I know of no law enforcement agency outside of the military that uses FMJ ammo.

Hope this helps.

Adam

[Trapper7]

I bought the 158 grain FMJ at a local Gander Mountain store in my area. The brand is Winchester. I was actually looking for Federal in the hydra-shok because I 've heard so much about them. I was unable to locate just the bullets for reloading, so I went looking for the entire round. Gander was low on ammo and this was the only 158 grain shells they had at the time.

I made a shooting range in my backyard and I shoot a lot. So, it's no big deal to shoot them up. I would like to find the Federal or maybe these FBI shells to replace them, though.

For stopping power, I really like my 357 Colt King Cobra. That is a mighty fine, accurate shooting handgun. But, as a carry handgun attached to my belt, it would pull my pants down with all the weight.

[Adam Helmer]

Trapper7,

In OLD Lyman Reloading Manuals they had a Maximum load of 5.4 grains of Unique behind the 148 grain Wadcutter in the .38 Special. The current Lyman Manuals are far lower in powder charges of Unique. In 2-inch guns, this load works in my Colts and Smiths. Like a lot of my accuracy loads developed in the 1970s and 1980s, the current reloading manuals are lower in powder charge recommendations. In the 7mm RM, .30-06, 6.5x55, and .243, I would never have found my accuracy loads with today's manuals. I never had pressure signs, so I assume they just "Lawyered Up."

Adam

[Jack]

If you're going to push a 38 wadcutter bullet faster than the typical 7-800 fps target load, make sure the bullet is NOT a hollow base wadcutter. The soft swaged commercial wadcutters with a hollow base, like the ones Hornady and Speer sell, have soft lead, and a skirt on the base, like a Civil War era Minie ball. The skirt is meant to expand and seal the bore at low velocity- which it does very well in the 7-800 fps range.
At higher velocities, the skirt sometimes gets blown off the bullet, and sometimes gets left in the bore.
I expect Lyman's recommended loads are for a solid base wadcutter from one of their molds.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I was actually looking for Federal in the hydra-shok because I 've heard so much about them. I was unable to locate just the bullets for reloading,
Just as a matter of record, Federal used to offer their Hydrashok bullets for reloading, but haven't in some time. I did have some (about a 1 1/2 dozen) that I found in the back of the ammo cabinet a little while ago...they were 129 grains. I don't think that they offered the bullet in a heavier weight.

As for the wadcutter: I have been told that the wadcutter/semiwadcutter bullets are superior to the RN style in that they act like a 'punch press' and cut a nice, clean hole with clean edges in tissue (just as they do in paper), as opposed to the RN, which just 'pushes' the tissue apart, and leaves a ragged edge. Important from the standpoint of hemorrhage, in that the platelets & rest of the clotting cascade will react more readily (to form clot and plug up the hole) with the wound made by a RN bullet as opposed to a WC/SWC. We do this in open heart surgey; we use a special punch to make a clean hole to sew the vein grafts on to help keep it open and reduce the chance of clotting post op.

For stopping power, I really like my 357 Colt King Cobra. That is a mighty fine, accurate shooting handgun. But, as a carry handgun attached to my belt, it would pull my pants down with all the weight.

Have you thought about wearing suspenders?;):D:)

Seriously, there are other options to carry (shoulder hoslter, for example), and depending on your barrel length on you King Cobra (always admired that revolver....never bought one:(), that may be an option as well.

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

Yes, my .38 wadcutters are cast and quenched and are hard. Swaged wadcutters would lead terribly at high velocity. As for hollow base wadcutters, I used to load them hollow base UP with a mild charge of Unique. An article circa 1976 in a gun magazine called them "cup points" and they sure worked on critters like skunks, chucks and porkys.

Adam

[Larryjk]

Okay Guys, Now is the time for all the folks who worry about the lawyers to leave the room. If you want to use a hollow base wadcutter for self defense, put the hollow base forward and put about 3.5 grains of Bullseye behind it. That recipe is an old one from a NYPD robbery detective. Said very few armed suspects caught in the act survived that one. You will probably be tried for EXCESSIVE self defense, unless you have been missed by the perps first shot. (Load is accurate for about 25 yrds.)

[Mr. 16 gauge]

You will probably be tried for EXCESSIVE self defense, unless you have been missed by the perps first shot.

"Excessive self defence"......I like that one; is that like being "a little bit pregnant"?;)

[skeet]

Nah..excessive self defence is taking a gun to a knife fight!!...never ever try to take a knife from a guy..it'll get ya killed...and there is no such thing as shooting to wound...you will probably miss

[Jack]

I've loaded the 'backwards wadcutter' loads myself. Back in the 70's, when most handgun bullets didn't expand, they worked better than most other things out of a 38, especially a short barreled one. Today, with bullets that really do expand, there probably is no need for the backwards wadcutter load.

[popplecop]

Hollow base 146 gr. wadcutters ahead of 2.5 grs of Bullseye is a load from the 50s. We tried them out of our Chiefs Specials and were not impressed with the results at all. In my .380 and 9mm carry Hornady Critical Defence, Silver Tips in 38 Super and HydraShocks in the .45 acps. I will always use factory loads in my personal defense handguns.

[skeet]

Makes sense to me..factory loads usually work

[Trapper7]

Cabelas carries the Federal Hydra Shok in 38 Spl + P, 129 grain bullet for $24.99 a box of 20. They have a special reduced price on some of the others calibers, just not the 38.

[Larryjk]

Maybe it was on here, but I have heard it said that if you consider a 38 Special too weak for self defense, try getting shot with one. The 38 Special was designed around a 158 grain SWC and if you buy a new Smith and go shoot it you will find that load is right on. It may not travel as fast as a "light" 99mm bullet but it (the 38 spec.) does get there, and if it hits, stops sthe fight. If it doesn't, shoot again. The 148 grain hollowbase wadcutter reversed and ahead of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is accurate to 25 yaards and opens up about quarter sized. It is effective and I use them in a 3" barreled J-frame Smith.

[popplecop]

One word of caution if you want to load a 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter reversed. The maximum load is 3 grs. of Bullseye according to my latest Hornady Seventh Issue Reloading Manual. I personally would approach the max. load by starting at 2.5 grs and going up a 1/10th of a grain at a time.

[Larryjk]

I am not surprised that a current manual shows 2.5 grs. of Bullseye to be max.
The load I referenced is from 1971, and not from a manual, but a personal reference. It is not a load for continued target shooting, but a load for maximum stopping power in a police setting. There were similar types of loads for the 45 acp that certainly wouldn't be found in a loading manual today.

We need to understaand that there is certainly some inherent risk to being shot by a robbery perpetratorwith a gun and it might be acceptable risk to use a more powerful load in a duty gun at that moment than you would routinely carry on traffic duty.

[popplecop]

Maximum load is listed at 3 grs. not 2.5 grs. I suggested that as a starting point to work up a safe load.

[Trapper7]

Last night on the History Channel's Modern Marvels, they had a great show on called "Magnums". It started with the 38 Special being the standard for law enforcement officers. Then S&W developed the 357 Magnum and it changed everything. S&W couldn't keep up with all the orders. However, not all police departments stayed with the 357. After awhile many went back to the 38 Special because of the noise & recoil of the 357.

Later, S&W developed the 44 Magnum. They said many purchased the 44, but some never actually shot it because they were afraid of it's power.

[Larryjk]

The military had the same dilemma. More people can shoot a 9mm accurately, but it really doesn't have the power for a one shot kill. The .45 acp has the power but too many people that have to use a pistol cannot shoot the .45 because of recoil. I maintain that the people that can't shoot a .45 have never had adequate instruction and practice with the pistol. They may also be so recoil conscious that they will never be able to shoot a pistol of power (recoil).

[skeet]

I have found that most people who cannot shoot a 45 are afraid of the gun. My wife is not afraid of guns. Shoots her Old Model SuperBlackhawk just fine in fact.. but there is a caveat for her..she must use hearing protection when playing with that puppy. She has no problem with the little chief's Special or the single action 45s noise and fear cause most bad shooting from novices and ocassional shooters..In my opinion. Surprisingly she does not like semi autos either..shoots my 45 ok..just doesn't really like it. Also in my opinion a semi auto is not a good handgun to start a novice on..unless you only load one round at a time. Revolvers are the handgun of choice for me to instruct with...with shotguns..semi auto 20 or 28 ga

[Adam Helmer]

Trapper7,

You made several points that caused me to have reflective thinking. In 1970, I was hired by a police department that allowed "Any Carry" of any handgun an officer could qualify with that was 9mm or larger. As "Badge 231" I went to the gun shop and paid $105.00 for a new S&W M28 4-inch .357 Magnum. Back at the station, I was told I could ONLY use Round Nose 158 grain .38 Specials in my M28!

Fortunately, six weeks later I was called to go to the 12-week training to be a federal agent. I still have that M28 Smith, but it is not stoked with Roundnose .38 Specials.

Adam

[Mad_Jack]

My thoughts on stopping power is that it's important for those who can't shoot accurately. If the shot is placed where it goes, down goes the target. If a military 50 cal hit a hip at 1200 yards the upper body usually leaves the lower body. If a .22 short goes in the eyeball and finishes in the brain, at that point life in that target ceases to exist. Any game animal I've placed a shot to the head, ended on the ground before the recoil ended. Humans are a form of animal in life's circle. The best defense is awareness, to not let yourself get into those situation. Regardless, practice.....a lot. Tactical training readies one better than stand up range time. But put rounds out in different situations; seated, kneeling, forward, backwards, upside down, on your back, right and left handed, or any position you might find yourself in. Just buy the ammo that makes you comfortable and shoot it. .02

[VaRedneck]

Please forgive if I've posted this in the past.

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

Conclusions
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44