More of you cannot fix stupid

[Joe Boleo]

Our gun club has 5,000 members and we seem to be having trouble making people take care of their firearms on the club ranges. Two recent issues have come to light. One fellow was alone on the rifle ranges (we have 50, 100, 200 and 300 yard ranges) and left his rifle at the bench and then walked 300 yards to check his target. When he got back to the bench his rifle was gone. He called the police, but it is doubtful his rifle will ever be found. He could have slung his rifle and walked to the target and he would still have his rifle. On the other hand, he could have invested in a spotting scope and still have his rifle.

The second fellow gets the Darwin award. He was busy shooting at the 100 yard range. No one else was using any of the ranges. When he finished shooting, he packed up and drove home. That evening when he unloaded his vehicle, he realized his rifle was missing. He also contacted the police and he may never see his gun again. When asked my opinion on these cases, I said both folks should have left $100.00 in cash with their guns as a tax for being stupid. Take care...
Joe

[Gil Martin]

We all have to be responsible for our firearms all of the time. It may or may not be club members stealing firearms from the range. Many of our gun clubs are in rural areas. Anyone could be waiting in the bushes for an opportunity. All the best...
Gil

[toxic111]

its too bad it is going that way everywhere... when i go to the range i usually have 3 or 4 with me, a little hard to bring them up with me to the target. I also find even with the spotting scope it can be hard to see your groups at 300yrds with smaller calibers my 6mm & .223 for example. Heck it is nealry impossible to see my .17HMR at 100yrds even with the spotting scope.

[Larryjk]

My son and I go to the range together so that we always have security on the firearms on the firing line or "ready" rack.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

It still is not right you have to have things under lock and key esp when at a gun club shooting range..funny how nobody ever sees something like that going down...we installed security cameras at our club and have had to call police a few times with things caught on camera like the middle of the night someone runnin around with shotgun shooting our camp ducks..walked over to his car, put them in ..left, came back and was camping there..police said..well, you still do not have a close up of 'him'..so can't nail him...but we did kick out of club...is one in every crowd.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I would have to agree with skeeter.....why do I have to carry my rifle with me everywhere I go on the gun range? I, too, often bring several rifles with me when I go to the range, to make the most of my range time. To call this individual a candidate for the darwin awards is a little presumptuous to my thinking. That's like saying I should carry anything (and everything) I think precious to me EVERYWHERE I go.....it's just not practical. And, I'll be frank....I didn't think this would be a forum where one would blame the victim of a crime.

Sounds like someone is frequenting this particular gun range with the sole intention of stealing firearms....hide in the woods until someone isn't looking, then snatch their weapon and take off. I would take a close look at my membership list, as well as the local neighbors. Doesn't sound like anyone just "drove up' and took off.....one would think that one would hear a car, even at 300 yards.
Perhaps a simple solution would be to attach a wire cable to each shooting bench, with a loop at one end. One could then run the cable through the trigger guard and lock the cable to the bench. Unless the benches were really flimsy, I don't think anyone would try and steal the rifle AND the bench.....
Just a thought.................

[skeet]

I once had a firearm(a Krieghoff O/U) stolen at a gun club.. Big one too. I reported it to the police and the gun club president too. Unbelievably a guy shows up a few weeks later shooting it(and showing it off). Well I got a call from the club VP and they had the gun..even paid to have it sent back to my..The guy that took it out of my car was a member..and it cost him his membership..which at the time was passed down from father to son. Don't know what the police did with him..but it was brought to their attention too. Mr 16 is right..we shouldn't blame the person who trusted his fellow members..we should blame the idiot who stole the gun. Nobody carries their rifle with them at the gun club I belong to. They leave it on the bench. Are we too trusting with fellow shooters?? I surely hope not...but it looks as though we may be in certain places

[Adam Helmer]

Joe Boleo,

WHY do gun club members leave guns and ammo on a bench and trek 100, 200, 300 yards to patch targets and then get SURPRIZED when their guns are stolen? MOPES need to pass a background check to buy a gun, BUT if they steal one (Or More) at the range, they are home free. Recall, in the Miami shooting of 7 or 8 FBI agents in 1985, Maddox got his guns from a shooter at a gun club who handed over his gun for Maddox to "Try." Maddox shot the gun owner, stole his car and went on robbing banks! Unfortunately, the gun owner survived to "do it all over again", DUH!

The folks who lobby for cable locks for rifles on the bench need to go to Walmart and SEE Bolt Cutters! SNIP, SNIP! At my club, I sling my loaded rifle and go patch targets. I carry a loaded rifle deer hunting, so I can sling one when going Down Range. Folks who leave rifles and ammo on the bench when they go down range, and are NOT SHOT with their OWN UNATTENDED guns, should increase their Church pledge and Attempt (?) to get a bit smarter. WHAT are those gun owners thinking? THIS IS NOT DISNEY WORLD! Control your firearms or keep them at home in the vault! WHO ever SAID you can leave them on a remote bench when you walk WAY, WAY downrange? Get smart and sling your guns on your target patching trek. Guns are stolen everyday, DO NOT MAKE it easier for THIEVES!!!!! Get a BRAIN! In the Military we call this: SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. If that is TOO MUCH for idiots, then STAY OFF the shooting range, or continue to arm GUN THIEVES!!!!

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

The folks who lobby for cable locks for rifles on the bench need to go to Walmart and SEE Bolt Cutters! SNIP, SNIP!

Well, since I was the one who advocated this, I guess that slam is directed at me....yes, you can buy bolt cutters and cut the cable. What then? Lock it in your car? guess you could pick up a hammer (for sale right next to the bolt cutters) and smash the glass and get in that way......maybe even use it to whack you in the back of your head while you are counting holes in your target, if they wanted your gun bad enough. What if you take every gun you own? Are you going to carry them ALL down range with you?

Here in MI it is ILLEGAL to take your rifle down range with you (on state run ranges).......so what is the answer then?:mad:

[scalerman]

Where I live in Canada carrying your firearm past the firing line is definitely bad etiquitte. To the point that it could cost you your membership. To me it is ridiculous that you should have to carry your rifle with you while you go check your target. Maybe Canadians plain and simply are not as smart as our neighbours to the south. I can't imagine anyone in the shooting community in Canada taking an unattended rifle while its' owner was out checking his target. I am shocked to hear that this sort of thing is happening at all.

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

No slam intended about the cable locks. I merely wanted to point out a false sense of security can come with cable useage. Lots of folks carry CCW to go check targets at local clubs. If MI prohibits guns down rage, do they provide Security such as a range officer to watch the guns on the benches?

Over in Eastern PA, an attorney was shooting on a PGC range when two off-duty prison guards showed up, asked to see his AR and then shot him to death with it. Guns are routinely stolen at shooting ranges, that is why I do most of my shooting on my own land.

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Adam;
You say it's a 'false sense of security', but really a cable lock is better than NO security at all....isn't it? Seeing as how most thieves are opportunists, and take advantage of an unattended rifle. Sure, if they want something bad enough, they will stop at nothing, but at least a cable lock will prevent some guy from just walking by thinking "Nice rifle...I think I will take it". Also, last time I looked bolt cutters were fairly large and not something that was concealed easily. If I saw a guy standing around the benches with a bolt cutter, I would think "Why the heck is that guy standing here with bolt cutters and not a rifle at the rifle range?" and call the authorities. And I recently tried cutting through some cable (work project) with a pair of bolt cutters, and it really wasn't as easy 'snip-snip'....some of the cable fibers were cut on the first pass, but it took a couple of more times to completely get through.
Yes, MI provides a range officer on their public ranges....however, I do shoot on state land were there is no bench (but that is usually pistol practice).
As for the attorney: I'm willing to bet that even if he had a CCW & was carrying, those two scumbags had the drop on him anyway when he handed them his rifle. So what do you do......be an unfriendly lout? Guess so, at least in PA. Maybe PA needs to promote a 'buddy system' to prevent such loss (firearm AND life)?

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

We are responsible for our own security and for the security of our arms. I cannot second guess that decased lawyer, but I would never hand a loaded gun of mine to a stranger. The lawyer "relaxed too soon!" Further, keep a ZONE of safety about your person on the firing line.

About 20 years ago I went on a nice October day to our locked-gated gun club in Massachusetts. I closed the gate behind me and locked it, as required, and was the only shooter on the hangun range that Friday afternoon. Apparently a smallbore shooter entered the club after me and FAILED to lock the gate. I went down range to replace my 25-yard target when I heard voices at the firing line. There were 4 tough-looking fellows about age 22 or 25 at my bench. I asked them if they were club members and they said they were not. I told them to come back on Monday at 7:00 p.m. and see the club Secretary for applications. They never came back to join the club. I told them to leave the club property. The meanest-looking guy asked me, "Is that gun in your holster loaded and do you always carry it down range?" I told him, "Yes, to both questions," and again told them to leave, which they did.

I will not second guess the deceased lawyer, but I kept my distance when approached by four toughs and they got the message. Use a "Buddy System" if it works for you. Just remember, that Buddy needs the stones to confront potential bad guys. Being cautions is NOT being unfriendly, it just may make you a survivor.
Adam

[Adam Helmer]

scalerman,

Are you saying NO guns are stolen off ANY gun club range in all of Canada? If so, you should perhaps put a few police officers on furlough to keep the taxes down! With your gun registration laws and other "Gun Controls" in place, I would suspect gun thefts are a good way for Bad Guys to get guns and avoid all the paperwork.

Adam

[scalerman]

I am in no position to speak for every gun range in Canada. I am however able to speak to the rules that I have seen implemented here regarding the use, care and storage of firearms here. The rules governing the use of the gun ranges are such that a "range master" must be present when any use of the range is taking place. As I indicated earlier any attempt to carry your fairearm forward of the firing line will result in your membership priveliges being suspended at best revoked at worst. Adam to my knowledge none of the criminals that use guns to commit crimes are interested in my hunting rifle for said purpose. I am not familiar with the rules around the use of handguns as I do not own one. Canadians do not have the same access to firearms as our friends to the south. I certainly do not see anyone carrying an AR-15 to hunt deer- illegal to hunt deer with a caliber that small here (in Alberta). Our rifle range here where I live has a security gate that you must have a pass for in order to get in. This does not allow those who have no reason to be to to hang around as the "range masters" are the only ones issued said security cards. This may explain why I feel so safe leaving my firearm on the firing line rather than taking it with me.

[Skinny Shooter]

My range installed a gate and lock recently in an attempt to deter non-members from coming onto the property.
Some of these folks get down-right ugly when asked for their member cards and some vandalism has also been happening.
It was getting so bad that an outside phone was installed to call the police. Cell service is non-existent there.

Our rifle range is surrounded by woods.
It would be easy for someone to lay in wait with whatever tools they need to execute a theft while someone is checking targets.

I'll often take two rifles to the range when working up varmint loads.
When I do have to walk to the targets, both rifles go with me.
Its a darn shame that you always have to be on your guard but in our situation and with this economic climate where any firearm can be sold for drug money, I'm not taking the risk.
And, I usually have a 1911 under my shirt.

Oh yeah, I do not give loaded firearms to strangers. And if someone does get to handle one of my rifles, I stay well within reaching distance.

Skeet knows where I live.
We've had some home robberies again around our home.
When I go out the door in the morning I always scan my environment for anything unusual.

Sure someone could get into my home and take guns but I'm not going to make it easy for them.

Adam, almost came up to your neck of the woods today to pick up some beehives. You're about 4 hours from me.
Allen

[Adam Helmer]

Skinny Shooter,

At that Massachusetts club, we had an 8-foot chain link fence around the perimeter and an 8-foot gate on the road into the club. The club rules mandate: "Locking the gate after entry or exiting." With 300 members, we always had a few that did not close and lock the gate.

I usually just have the M1911 on me when I go down range to patch targets. I remove the bolts on the bolt guns at the bench and maintain situational awareness if anyone drives into the parking lot or approaches my bench. Even the dullest bad guy knows gun clubs are fine places to acquire guns.

The next time you are up this way, send me a PM and I will vector you in.

Adam

[Adam Helmer]

scalerman,

Since you are not aware of gun thefts from gun clubs in all of Canada, you seem to be lulled into a false sense of security about your club. That is fine by me if it works for you.

Adam

[skeet]

Skeet knows where I live.
We've had some home robberies again around our home.
When I go out the door in the morning I always scan my environment for anything unusual.

Sure someone could get into my home and take guns but I'm not going to make it easy for them.

.
Allen

You know Allen.. Where i lived in Md is having a real spate of breakins. even had a guy woken up at night with a gun to his head..Robbed him without shooting.. But you have brought up a good point. With economics as they are..more people are looking for easy marks. And i guess gun clubs are an easy place to look. I never give ANYONE a loaded gun..of any kind..and I always know where that gun is looking.. There is very little crime such as you have in your area. I thought where you lived was a bit less worrisome on crime..I know where I lived in Md was..but there is no police presense in Md and the state does not allow concealed carry..for the average guy or gal anyway. Here in Wyoming we can carry with no permit..as they call it Constitutional carry but they also have a permit system in place too..for use in other states that accept Wyoming permits. I carry very seldom..but always have a 45 auto in the car when returning home. I live at the end of a road near nowhere. Police when called will usually be 20 minutes or more...and we do have a few idiots.. What Adam said about removing the bolt(if possible) is one thing I usually do..but quite often when at the rifle range rather than the shotgun venues..I prefer to not go alone. But for most of my sighting in etc I do it on my home range. I have more than 500 yds If I choose to use that much distance...and being the lazy sort..I ride the 4 wheeler for the 200 yd plus shooting..so I carry the gun...just in case i happen to see a w...er coyote! Y'all be careful. My daughter lives on a farm also and has either a shotgun or a 9mm with her at all times. The Eastern Shore is not a safe place anymore..Even considering selling the small farm I have left there..

[Larryjk]

We always think we are safe from "big city" problems in Wyoming. Last spring during a collegiate trap shoot a gun was taken from the rack during the shoot. The parking lot was blocked and a search was on. The shotgun was recovered from a vehicle from a neighboring state. The vehicle owner did know that one of his passngers placed something in the car. During questioning the truth came out and one of the contestants tried to steal the gun. He did not get a ride back home and had to have his parents come to Wyoming to get him. I don't know how the total problem was resolved.

[scalerman]

Adam are you aware of any thefts from gun clubs in Canada?

[Adam Helmer]

scalerman,

Check with your law enforcement people in Canada for that answer. I "Suspect" theft of guns is a problem in EVERY nation, especially in those that have tight gun controls. Prove me wrong!

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

As a kid growing up (back in the 70's), my next door neighbor was an informal target shooter...he had a couple of .30-06 bolt action rifles he liked to go and punch paper with. There was an outdoor range about 30 minutes from the house, and he shot there often. A public range, run by private individuals. Anyway,....... one day, shortly before deer season (when everyone decides it is time to sight in their rifles), a heroin addict decided to break into cars and steal some goods to finance a fix. Problem was, the parking area was right, and I mean RIGHT behind the shooting benches....about 10 feet away and separated only by a snow fence! One shooter saw what this individual was doing, and he immediately had about 20 rifles pointed at him! Even though he was an addict, he wasn't that high......he quickly stopped what he was doing and put his hands up!

[skeet]

Now that is a really neat story.....Duh think I'll steal me some guns...UHOH..maybe not!! ..Gotta love it. hahahahahah

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

Ya better go to Canada where NO ONE steals guns from shooting benches. LOL! I think I will email the RCMP and inquire about gun range gun thefts to educate some Canucks.

Adam

[skeet]

Adam..the only gun i had stolen at a range was in... TaDa..Pennsylvania.. I did get it back though..at a very prestigious range too. Yep it can happen anywhere. I had one stolen once by a family member.. Cost them dearly..with the police the courts and forever afterwards with me..and some of the family thought I should just accept the gun back and forget it.. I did NOT...and would not. As far as Canada..give it a break..LOL

[skeeter@ccia.com]

This is a good post. It had gotten the attention of some and me especially...lesson learned. Never leave guns laying on bench while walking down range. Buddy system works for me if one goes with you. If not, maybe the cable lock to the bench would be next alternative. Sort of like shooting up a school...well they know nobody will be shooting back because no guns. So that is the place to go. Looking for a free gun? Gunrange. Oh and my dad taught me way back at turkey shoots, not to place shotgun in the holding racks. That tells me this problem has been going on for years. But thanks for heads up on subject. I sure will pass it on.

[powell&hyde]

I agree that the buddy system is the best.

[Larryjk]

If I am at a shoot and want to put my gun in a gun rack, I always look to see if there is a place to sit where I can keep an eye on the gun. If not, the gun doesn't go in the rack. If I can keep an eye on it I always feel like I have baited the trap and will see if there are any skunks present.

[GoodOlBoy]

I walked off of a gun range at one point because the range officer demanded we leave our guns at the bench while hanging targets. This was also when he was taking his 15 minute break..... I told him no way in heck, he told me it was his way or the highway so I packed up my gear, went into the facility and got my range fees back and left. That afternoon two people had their guns stolen while the range officer was on break.

GoodOlBoy

[popplecop]

GOB, I'm still trying to picture a gun club with 5000 members. Wow, the county I was born and raised in didn't have anymore people than that back then. Sure gives LE along lists of suspects.

[scalerman]

Adam, feel free to educate me. You are the one who called my opinion into question. I in no way shape or form portrayed that I was speaking for all of Canada. If you would take the time to actually read my post it would be apparent that I was speaking from my own experience as is everyone else commenting in this thread. I am not sure how I became a representative for ALL of Canada. I am certain this particular issue is not one that is faced at every gun range in America and jumping all over me for sharing my personal experience seems rather heavy handed.

[Adam Helmer]

scalerman,

In your 10-17-11 post you stated you were surprised anyone would take "an unattended gun from a bench at a gun club." Tut-tut, you Canucks would never do such a thing, eh, wot? On 10-23-11 you posted the same sort of superior attitude.

I do not suggest you speak for all of Canada, just be honest and accept the fact there are folks who will steal unattended guns, especially in view of your gun control laws. Your jab about "not being as smart as neighbours to the south" seemed to express an unjustified superiority attitude. Will you enquire of your Constabulary IF ANY guns were stolen this year, or last, from ANY gun club in Canada? If so, then put "proper ediquette" aside and protect your guns at the club, eh, wot?
Adam

[scalerman]

Adam, when you asked me if NO guns had EVER been stolen at ANY gun range in Canada it certainly sounded like you were asking me to represent all of Canada. You do seem to be one that has a bee in your bonnet about the theft of firearms from Canadian gun ranges I suggest that go ahead and slake your curiosity by contacting the RCMP yourself. I have merely been expressing my opinion on here whereas you seem to feel that my position is an impossible one. I have mothing to prove to you.

[Adam Helmer]

scalerman,

Have a nice day.

Adam

[scalerman]

Adam, you too my friend.

[8X56MS]

food for thought. I often am at my gun range by myself. I like weekday mornings when most folks are working.

You need a gate code to get in and out, but theft could still happen.

[Adam Helmer]

8X56MS,

About the GATE, at my former club, with a gate, some folks NEVER closed and locked it! Gates are fine, BUT be sure to impose penalties on morons who FAIL to abide by the CLOSING RULE!

Adam