Small Base .223 Dies Needed for AR?

[dovehunter]

My son is getting ready to either build or buy an AR of some kind in .223 Remington. Will we need to get small base dies for it? I already have RCBS standard .223 dies and wonder if they should size the cases sufficiently to function properly through an AR-style autoloader?

:confused:

[Skinny Shooter]

I use a FL die for my Rock River and have no issues getting reloads to chamber.
It may also depend on the brass you are using.
Had some once-fired Winchester brass for a 22-250 that would not resize back to where it was supposed to go. On Sinclair's advice, I switched back to Remington again because it is a bit softer.

You will probably only know in that particular rifle when you start to reload for it.

Talk with one of the guys at Sinclair and they will give you the straight dope on what to do.
They help out even if you haven't purchased from them.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/aspx/general/contact_us.aspx

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1870285
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/338410__223_small_base_dies___.html
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Small-base-size-die-AR15-t34097.html

Here is a good page for loading the AR15: http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Allen

[Gil Martin]

I have standard RCBS .223 dies and have loaded thousands of rounds for several ARs and have never had a problem. I would suggest loading some rounds and see how they function. All the best...
Gil

[skeet]

Regular dies usually work ok. Key word is usually. As Skinny said some brass doesn't size back to original size. I load 223 on a Dillon Super 1050 with Dillon Carbide dies and they are a little tighter than normal dies. If you find you need a set of Small Base ...Let me know.. I do have a set of RCBS I no longer use. I do use Small Base dies for the Remington 742 in 30-06 and for the 308 for the Armalite AR-10.. The AR 10 is one of those gotta work guns so I use the small base dies for it. You will get a load or 2 less per case..but well worth the tradeoff in my opinion. I sold my Dillon 308 Carbide dies a bit too soon. 308 is a round I have never had much use for..but the AR-10 was priced right and when Nobama wins the election..I think new semi autos will be banned. I am hoping he loses of course. He is useless but I really do not have any use for his America hating wife

[dovehunter]

Skeet, what you said about the Rem. 742 is why I posed the question. I had always read that you needed small base dies to insure proper functioning in it. I wondered if the same thing applied to .223 AR-type guns. I'll do what everyone has suggested: try my standard RCBS full-length sizer first and if finished loads function okay, we're home free. If not, I'll get back with you about that small sizer die. Thanks!

[skeet]

Well DH. The 742 is after all a hunting rifle and tolerances on it are SUPPOSED to be a bit tighter than military stuff. Suopposed is also a key word here. I use the small base for it out of hand..it WILL work that way. As far as ARs. I have found that now days they are being made somewhat tighter especially in the case of varminters etc..and since most of what we see are civilian models they seem to be somewhat tighter. On checking an old Mil Spec 16..tolerances are quite a bit looser than my Bushy Varminter....but they really have to be. They get very hot very fast. One of the reasons for the VN era problems along with cleaning. Newer cleaner powders now too. Try the regular dies. They well probably work..also keep the case length right and the overall length in the middle too. New heavier bullets really use powder space and many want to seat 'em farther out. Max length can cause feeding difficulties. My Bushy has that problem with 69 gr Noslers at max length. but they do shoot..really well. I got 1500 of them a couple years ago at a very good price(6 bucks a hundred) Yeah..I'm cheap

[Adam Helmer]

dovehunter,

I agree with Skinny and Gil; LET the rifle dictate IF you need small base dies. Lots of horse pucky is printed about resizing cases. The RCBS resiging die instructions are a case in point: They say to run the sizer down to the shell holder and then go a half turn more. WRONG!

I have reloaded for 3 Match Garands and 3 Match M14s using my RCBS dies. I ALWAYS backed off the regular sizing die an eighth or a quarter turn, depending on the rifle reloaded for, to get a slight "crunch" fit. I shot many matches with the .30-06 and .308 and never had a hiccup.

Try your regular resizing die and try the cases in your rifle after resizing to see how much is enough. I have never needed a small base die, YET!

Adam

[Larryjk]

Adam Helmer, I was loading some old GI brass for the M1 and found that it chambered fine most of the time, but that the clips were somewhat difficult to seat The sides of the clips were "flared" and binding on the sides. Then I got a small base die and tried it. Absolutely no chambering problems and not problems seating the clips in the rifle. Placing the clips side by side you can definitly see the "flare" on the sides of those filled with non small base sized brass.
Some rifles have chambers that are not round at the rear. Savage 99 are nortorious as are some of the pumps and other lever actions. They really feed better when the small base die is used.

[buckhunter]

In my bar I use a sb die. Why, that because thats what I have. Bought it a long time ago when I had my first of many 742's, 7400's and Model 4 (I think). Worked with them so I just kept using it. So far it has been good.

[skeet]

The small base dies do work and i do have a tendency to use them for the autos. Also since i don't load to the absoilute max I doubt that they resize the bases all that much but I did worry about work hardening the brass..but I loaded the same 30-06 case 11 times for my ol 742..and it was still good..I did retire it though..just out of safety's sake. Never been a great fan of semi auto rifles but that 742 is a good shooter..very good in fact. I had a 760 pump that was a good shooter too. it was a 243 and was a bit more sensitive to resizing.. Did not have a small base die for it but I sized them twice..once before cleaning and once before loading. It never failed to feed but if I sized only once I could feel the case going in a bit.. All I ever shot in it were reloads.. in fact I found a half of a box of Nosler bullers the other day that I loaded in it..95 gr partitions ..the old style. I did shoot more than one or two deer with it..and one fox. That ol Fox was running hell bent for election down hill at about 40 yds. Shot it just like I woulda used a shotgun.. Didn't even ruin the hide. Pure and simple ..it was a lucky shot

[Rapier]

If your son will look for and get a Wylde chamber he should never need a small base die. The Wylde chamber is the best of two worlds, accuracy and function. It also gives the best results for the widest variety of 223-5.56 ammo. Today that chamber is used in most new, good quality uppers.

Now having said that, military brass is what it is and if you pick up some 223 fired in a SAW, nothing might fix it, like the 308 and the Mini-Gun. The SAW and Mini-Gun stuff can be scrap when it hits the ground.
Ed