Who is in favor of Israel's actions?
 

Thought I would post this pole for those of you that might have an opinion contrary to the majority of the board but do not want to voice it in a thread. With this pole, you can remain anonymous and not have to worry about having to defend your position. I am just curious to see if I am the only one on this entire board that does not agree with all of Israel's actions regarding the missing soldiers.

Not enough options for me, Fabs.

I'm not fully up to speed on this particular outbreak of fighting - mostly because I don't read or watch mainstream media.

But whacking terrorists for any reason whatever seems like a good thing to me.

It's probably as spontaneous as a space shuttle launch.

Iran is apparently providing armament. We could do that, too.

Hezbollah has about as much chance at defeating Israel as the Des Moines chapter of Hell's Angels has against the US Marines. Isreal does not have to win this war. It can strike, and then depart, if it chooses. Hezbollah has to win in order to win.

rocky

the mossad has traced hezbollah terrorist cells operating and dictating policy to the palistinians from lebanon and syria. at least thats what i've been able to dig up. the israelis feel that if your country is going to allow such actions you are our enemy. from what i am told all the lebonese do not support the hezbollah. in fact from info i received is, 90% don't.

the iranian president's statement that israel should be blown off the map may cost him in the near future. since he made that statement things have been going to hell in a handbasket intelligence wise anyway. that statement was what hezbollah needed to hear as far as my sources think. so hezbollah has really stepped up their terrorist activities. israel has checked this closely.

as far as israel is concerned they struck when they to prevent things from getting any worse. the nip this in the bud therory.

this whole situation could get worse before it gets better.

From what I understand, Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel, and that group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament. This is retaliation for the murders and kidnappings of the Israeli soilders. Just like the US in Iraq, there are casualties of war and sometimes the innocent have to die. Israel and Lebanon have been having this ongoing thing since like the 70s. What is Israel supposed to do? Just lie down and take it?

Rocky,

I haven't heard of many terrorists getting whacked by the Israelis, but I have heard that 76 civilians have been killed. If we had that kind of kill ratio in Iraq, heads would be roling and the world would really be pissed at us. I wonder is Israel is going to help Lebanon rebuild after they get all these terrorists. Kind of like the US helped Iraq rebuild and get things somewhat back to order, or is Israel going to pound Lebanon back to the stone age and leave them there, creating more ill will between the two countries.

I think the whole situation is getting worse every day. Not only do we have fighting in the Middle East that was unpredicted, but we have rising oil prices. Oil went over $78 a barrel today. The stock market took a beating too, so the rick are worried about this war. Lord knows what will happen over the weekend and how the stock markets will react. China and Japan are experiencing some of the same economic issues that we have here. They have economies that are threatened with severe inflation. Japan's government just raised the interest rate from a 0.00% rate for the first time in a couple of years because it fears inflation. China's economy is on fire and they are fearing inflation. What will a huge increase in the price of oil do to the world economy, besides having people on here cheering "Go Israel" and then crying about the gas price that they have to pay at the pump. One good thing happening in America is that house prices are coming down, but that is only good if you weren't one of the people that bought a house that you could barely afford under an ARM, and now you might get foreclosed on because the interest rates are going up (i.e., your house payments are to expensive) and the price of gas is going up (i.e., you just cannot afford to live).

Personally, I think we are in for some seriously tough times, and some of the economists have predicted that there might be out right disaster and armagedon in the US because of gas prices. Hopefully, when gas prices get high enough people will buy the Honda Insight or Toyota Prius, both of which get 60+ miles to the gallon on the highway and close to or above 60 miles to the gallon in the city.

As far as what is happening in Israel and Lebanon, Billy is pretty much spot on. From what I am reading, it appears that the Israelis are targeting specific infrastructure. For instance, they lew up an oil tank at a refinery, but they didn't touch the actual refinery. They totally demolished the cheaper bridges, but only punched a hole in a big expansion bridge that is one of the costly bridges. At the airport, they have only been targeting the runway. They have also blown up an apartment building. The UN says that Israel is breaking international law by cutting Beirut off from the rest of the world. The UN also said that Sadam was violating international law by creating weapons of mass destruction and the US went in and took out the entire government under that premonition. Funny how we pick and choose what we want to hear and/or agree with.

In trying to nip it in the bud, the Israelis might be pushing a little too much. I am sure a lot of arabs are already pissed off that we are in the Middle East. I think Israel taking it to them on another front might just get those arabs sitting on the sidelines to turn against the US and Israel. Weren't the Crusaders overwhelmed by the uniting of the arab tribes? Time will tell how this all unfolds. Hopefully, it will be over by this weekend. What I do not understand is if the vast majority of the Lebanese do not support the Hezbollah, why didn't the Lebanese goverment try to get rid of the Hezbollah? Plus, if so many of the Lebanese people are anti Hezbollah, why aren't they turning them in to avoid this conflict with Israel. Could the Hezbollah actually hied from 90% of the population or is Israel's intelligence just terrible at gathering information?

Fabs, you've heard of 76 "alleged" civilians killed - as reported by the far left commie Jane Fonda media.

Know any terrorists with uniforms?

Amen, Rocky! As long as it's against the Israelis, it's OK by the media!
:rolleyes:

I voted that i agreed, but.....i can't say totally.

It would take far too long to explain my views, and in all honesty most people would consider my views harsh, if not outright brutal.

You _NEVER_ negotiate with terrorists/kidnappers/hostage takers.


Israel screwed up years ago by releasing prisoners for the return of their troops. I think the last time was 4-5 years ago, and the trade was like 200 some odd prisoners for 3-5 troops, i do not remember the exact numbers.

By caving into the hostage takers, they ensured it would happen, and continue to happen over and over again.

Terrorists/hostages/kidnappers are rabid animals who deserve nothing more than to be putdown.

There is no rehabilitating them, no treatment, and no use even giving in to them, since they _WILL_ do it again.

Those are my basic views, most people nowdays simply are not capabile of agreeing with them.
All you really have to do though is open your history books and do some reading, a person can actually learn alot by doing that.

We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat.

Israel did what they had to do, I fully support their actions. I do really wish their aim was true in shooting, and could cut down on the non-combatants being killed or injured.

I have read endless books, and watch every documentary over Israel I can. They fought for each and every square inch of that country. I do admit at times they were less than tolerant of some of their arabic neibours, but they live under the constant open threats of muslem nations around them, wishing to wipe them out, for no other reason than the fact they are a Jewish nation. Whom they do not recognize, and still call Israel, Palistine.

Remember when things were going 'kind of good'? And the Israeli Minister went to visit a Mosque, all hell broke loose, and violence spread all through out the country, and suicide bombings went on........................so much for the tolerance of the other side.

And on the Issue of the Palistinians, check on the history of the region, pre-Israel, the arabs who controlled the zones didn't treat the Palistinians like people, the Israelis allow them to apply for Israeli citizenship.

But back to the present, I think Israel will make a huge mistake if they trade a few solders for dozens of terrorist. I hope they don't trade at all. If Hezbollah tries to take them to Iran, they are just asking to get pulverized. I just wonder is Iran stupid enough to back Hezbollah openly, after years of denying it.

But this could get worse, and the US would have no other option, than to help Israel is some way, shape or form. Because IMHO if Israel ever thought they would really and truly lose their country or Jeuresulem, I think they would nuke it them selves, to keep it from falling to the long time enemys.

(as usual please forgive my lousy spelling..........my spell check is in German)

Gumpokc,

I agree completely that terrorists should be killed, but not everybody in the entire nation that the terrorist happens to be in. Heck, we have terrorists right in the US right now, but I don't see us bombing our own cities. I guess it is just plain easier for Israel to bomb the heck out of Beirut, and even if the 76 alleged dead are only that, I am pretty sure that everybody within the city is pretty much stuck there. I wouldn't want to be in that situation either. It is kind of tough for any of us to understand what it is like to be stuck in our own city, but the best analogy I can give is the US right after 9/11 when nobody could fly anywhere. Granted, we could still get in a car and leave, which I did. I went from downtown Baltimore, where I happened to be working, straight to DC, where my parents live and where my sister and father were in the downtown part of when all the stuff was happening. My sister worked right next to the Pentagon and when I got through to her she thought we were being bombed and she was worried for my dad who was also downtown that morning. It is a sick feeling.

If you lined up all the terrorists in the world, and the powers that be told me they were 100% sure these guys were terrrorists, I would have no problem mowing them all down. However, if you lined up 100 people, and told me that 99 of them were terrorists but 1 was probably innocent, I would have a much tougher time killing all of them. Now, throw in the fact that killing them might have global repercussions like starting a war and risking world economies, then it would also be extremely hard.

Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture.

For instance, I went to the Outer Banks last week and you would be surprised by the number of young polish people with accents that were working there at the stores and bars. However, they were probably legal aliens, or at least I hope they were. Now, if Americans are so hard up for jobs, why are polish immigrants working as cashiers and bartenders in the Outer Banks? Why is it that these jobs are not filled by American citizens?

Yes, Go Israel, kill all the terrorists. I have no problem with that, but I also think it should be couched with Go Israel, kill all the terrorists, but make sure you follow international law, or you are no better than the terrorists. Go Israel, kill all the terrorists but make sure you limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.

I have no problem with Israel killing all the terrorists, but I do have a problem with the way they are going about it. We could wipe out most of the terrorists in the world, or severely hamper their infrastruture if we nuked all of the Middle East, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. If we send the entire Middle East back to prehistoric times, it would be a lot harder for the terrorists to cause any trouble, but I don't see us doing that either. Why, because it is probably wrong.

Now, who is to say that Israel itself is not a terrorist. Just because it uses tanks, warships, and airplanes to carry out its message (i.e., don't mess with us or we will visit a world of hate on your entire nation), doesn't mean that it isn't a terrorist. Terrorist target civilian buildings and civilians to cause terror in their enemies. Well, Israel is doing just that. Now, I have nothing against targeting a civilian building if you know that a terrorist is in it, but targeting an entire city and cutting it off from the outside world because you know terrorists are in it, I have a problem with that. And where do you draw the line. If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. Let's say a terrorist is in a civilian building such as the World Trade Center over in Lebanon. I know there is no such thing, but use your imagination. Would it be okay to kill 3,000+ civilians to get this terrorist or is that too much collateral damage? That should be my next pole. Is it okay to kill 3,000 innocent, and I mean innocent, arab civilians to get Osama Bin Laden? Not all arabs are terrorists. Heck, I believe the majority are peaceful people.

Jon,

"We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat."

It is easy to say that because attacking Mexico is easy. There are no repercussions because Mexico is weak and there is little possibility of causing World War III. However, would you attack Mexico if one of its citizens happened to kill one of our border guards and it wasn't an act sanctioned by Mexico. Would you actually bomb Mexico City and cut it off from the rest of the world in search of those soldiers? How long would you keep the city under siege? 100's of thousands of innocents, maybe millions, will suffer because of the acts of a limited few that just happen to be citizens of their country. Acts that are not backed by the country itself.

I ask a lot of questions in all of my replies, but nobody actually gives me straight up answers to them in reply.

Would you go against Mexico if it was stronger and going against it would mean additional casualties for the US? How many additional US casualties would you be willing to stomach to recover a single border guard?

Sorry, Fabs. Every one of your questions would require a treatise to answer.

A favorite tactic of the terrorists is to strike, and then hide among civilians. They locate their headquarters next to schools, hospitals or mosques (or IN mosques) specifically to either deter any return strike at all, or to wail about civilian casualties if they are hit. They're to blame if civilians get hit.

The issue is not with the citizens of innocent countries in which they hide (I'll give those countries the benefit of doubt whether they're actually welcoming the terrorists.) But if those countries don't act to expel terrorists, they are as much to blame as the terrorists for civilian deaths.

But the Israelis are not.

(oh BTW, Israeli fighter pilots are the best in the world. Bar none, even our own. Really. Their air-ground misses can be measured in feet, and not a single one has ever been shot down in an air-to-air engagement. Zero.)

I'm solidly with Rocky on this.

A populace has no direct control over terrorists, however, if they do not take matters into their own hands to expel, or eradicate those same terrorists, then they are giving them support, if only by indirect means, by allowing them cover and concealment.


QUOTE Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture. ENDQUOTE

It is a very black and white issue, the only shades of gray are cast by those who overcomplicate the issue, or by the supporters of the terrorists themselves, using those issues to confuse those who act against them.



QUOTE . If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. ENDQUOTE

Thats funny, I was going to ask you the same thing.
Hw many people are you condemming to death, rape, torture, destroyed families by not dealing decisively in the first place?
How many years/decades/centuries will your populace pay the price for the ones before them who could not do what needed to be done.

It's like cancer or gangrene, just how much of either are you willing to accept living with?

Sometimes choices _MUST_ be made that for sentimental or emotional reasons are very difficult. Logically there is no problem with what must be done, but people cloud the issues with nonessential BS.

Lets go back to the cancer/gangrene example.

Little Billy's arm has gangrene, to effectively treat it, it must be amputated far enough above the infection so that it does not travel further. There is no question what must be done. Yes it's sad, it will cause alot of pain, an some suffering, but the alternative is much worse.

They could say " oh well lets just take a little and see if that stops it" , then a little more, then some more, then some more, until it finally got into his bloodstream and killed him.

Sure they saved him from havign the amutation all at once,but how many times did they put him and his family throug the same emotional wringer? how much more did this cost, in scaring,money, both physical and emotional pain?

Now which would have been the better choice from the start?

If you cannot make the tough decisions for yourself, don't question the people who can _when you don't know the full story/reasons behinds their decisions_!

Not only that, but flip the scenario and ask this:

If a terrorist is in an AIRLINER, what is the acceptable collateral damage to civilians HE CAUSES?

Their aim is clear, voiced and attested to by their own leaders: eradicate all "nonbelievers". That includes not just Israel and the US, but all non Islamists even other sects of Islam. In short, most of the human race.

They're making it black and white for us, I'd say.

I think I have asked this question before, but does anybody know why this hatred between the arabs and the Israelis started? I am trying to figure out who is to blame for this entire mess. That way, we can nuke that side and get rid of the gangrene. We have to do what we have to do. Wonder how the world would react to some tactical nukes in the Middle East.

Another thing that I noticed is that the initial attacks this time were against actual Israeli soldiers. As far as I am concerned, that is a step up for the "terrorists." I bet they call themselves freedom fighters over there. I really want to know why this all started so I can understand a little more about the arabs/muslims ways. For instance, is it okay that they are fighting the way they are because they are in the right and they do not have somebody backing them with high tech weaponry and education? When cornered, you have to do whatever you can to get out of it. For instance, I think of myself as a good guy, but if anarchy were to hit the US, my family was starving or dehydrated, somebody else had food and water but no firearm, and I had the gun, you can bet that the person would be giving up the food and water and/or his life before my family would die. Yet, I hold doors open for people. I am as polite as can be, etc. So, I would love to know why this fight has been going on for so long.

As far as Israeli pilots be the best there is, how many wars have they been in. Last I checked, they weren't in World War II where a lot of planes got shot down. Please don't tell me that their pilots could have been involved in that war and not been shot down at least once. How about Korea or Vietnam. Were they involved in that? How many planes did we lose in Desert Storm or the current war on terrorism? My buddy that flies F-18's said that there was nothing that Afghanistan had that could knock down a plane flying at 15,000 feet or higher. What type of technology do the Israelis fly against. Is it Russian made stuff thrown at them by skilled operators? Does anybody know the answer.

I ask a lot of questions because I like to know exactly what is going on. I did the exact same thing with the wolves thread and ended up changing my mind slightly. Knowledge is power, and following along with blinders on is sheer stupidity.

I guess I would like to start with understanding how this entire mess started. That will get me started. of course, the in-laws are currently driving up from Florida (i.e., spent the entire morning and most of the afternoon cleaning the entire house and going to the dump), but I'll try to do a little research in the meantime.

Oh, forgot to answer some of the other questions posed to me. If a plane is full of people and there is a terrorist in control of it, after what happened on 9/11 we pretty much know that those people are already dead, so it is a no brainer to shoot that plane down. Not shooting it down would result in the deaths of the people on the plane along with more casualties from whichever building the bastard flew into. Kind of like cutting poor Billy's arm off.

As far as it being a black and white issue, it isn't unless you know all there is to know and can tell me how everything will effect the world. Something tells me that you do not have those answers. My portfolio has taken a hit to the tune of several thousands of dollars because of this mess. I'll not complain about it if the whole thing is resolved and there is piece in the middle east. Heck, I would be willing to give tens of thousands of dollars to establish a lasting peace in the middle east, but I can afford it. What happens when markets plummet and people's retirement is affected? What happens when gas prices soar and people have to take losses on their SUV's to buy something more economical? Will the rising gas prices cause further inflation, resulting in further increases on the Fed's interest rate resulting in more people not being able to make their mortgage payment and being foreclosed on? I don't have the answers either, but I at least know that there are more issues than just "Go Israel" and "Kill all the terrorists no matter the cost." The world is not a simple place anymore.

A lot of US citizens don't agree 100% with what Bush does, so when he screws up should that be thrown at those people too. I am sure that a lot of these terrorists/militants/freedom fighters are in this thing because of the decades long hatred toward Israel. They were born into this thing, kind of like I was born into the issues in the Middle East.

I agree that all terrorists should be eliminated that intentionally target civilians. However, I have no problem with sneak attacks performed by these terrorists against soldiers. In a lot of warfare, deceit and treachery wins the day. Can you honestly expect these arabs to go toe to toe with Israel. Maybe if the arabs had the technology, this would be more of a stalemate than it currently is because Israel would think twice about moving into arab countries. Then again, it might just be all out war.

Okay, it looks like the arabs are the bad guys from the beginning.

"A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

Note that with Judea and Samaria Israel is only 40 miles wide. Thus, Israel can be crossed from the Mediterranean coast to the Eastern border at Jordan river within one hour of driving."

Fabs, just to completely factual, in the Six-Day War, Israel lost half or more of its planes - but all of them to ground fire. AAA and new Russian-supplied SA-6 missile batteries (a VERY scary missile!) just about wiped them out along the Egyptian border.

So they've lost planes and pilots in combat. But none have ever been shot down by an enemy fighter. In the Bakaa Valley, I think the ratio of kills was something like Syria 0, Israel 248.

For the record, their incredible air-to-air skills were achieved largely (though not completely) in the US-supplied F-15 Eagle. And just to add to the stats, no F-15 Eagle flown by either Israeli or US pilots has ever lost an air-to-air engagement. Score: Them-0, F15- whole damn bunch.

Fabs, I was a combat pilot and I still think like one. It wasn't my job to figure out the politics. It was just my job to beat the other guy and fly home alive. I managed that little chore 300 times - 35 years ago - and I still don't try to figure out the politics.

Evening Rocky
Just a heads up. The new F-22 that will be replacing the F-15 Eagle is quite a piece of equipment. In an air to air engagement one F-22 went up against 5 F-15 Eagles and defeated them all. That is incredible. What makes it really incredible is it did it not only once but 5 times in the same day. This was a no holds bard engagement the, F-15 pilots were out to snuff that F-22. The comment from one of the F-15 pilots was "Go out , Get killed, Go to the refueling tanker, , Go back to the fight and get killed again" . The F-22 will carry on the success of the F-15 Eagle. MC

Rocky,

Thanks for the info. My buddy said that if he ever went from the Navy to the Air Force, the F-15 is what he would want to fly. He said that it is the only American plane that can accelerate vertically. Don't know if it is the only plane in the world that can do it, but in the US it is. Granted, I think the F-22 has the F-15 beat in that category too. My buddy loves the F-22 and I think he might have even flown it while he was here in Maryland as a test pilot over the last three years. I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him.

As far as politics are concerned, I agree completely with you that a soldier/fighter pilot should never let politics get into the equation. Every time my buddy goes up, I truly hope he is only concentrating on the mission at hand and getting back home safely to his wife and two kids. The politics should be left up to the politicians and people like me with nothing better to do with my spare time. I read a little more about the Israel/Arab conflict, and it looks like the arabs are to blame for most of it, but that information was off a pro Israel board, one that I think was sponsored by Judaism because of the references in the text. So, I am going to look for something a little less bias over the next hour or so before I have to get some sleep. I'll post about it if I find anything significant.

There seems to be something missing in this picture.All this concerns not only Israel, but the rest of the non-Muslim world as well. This all started with the First Crusade in 1096 A.D and continued with six more Crusades finally ending in 1314 A.D.
Islam is a religion that WILL NOT allow the existance of any other religion other than Islam. PERIOD!
Look at the infiltration of Muslims in Europe and the British Isles. They blew up a few trains in Spain and Spain bends in fear to their wishes. The blow up a few trains in Britain, and the Brits seem to be cowed to some degree, although nowhere near as much as Spain. Now they blew up some trains in India.
I believe that the term "peaceful Muslim" is not only an oxymoron but an outright lie. It is my understanding that the Koran states that is is no sin to lie to an unbeliever. That it is an homor to kill an unbeliever. If these so-called peaceful Muslims were against the religious fanatics doing all the terrorism, why haven't they said something? Where are all the protests against the terrorists and what they do? By their silence, they condemn themselves.
This is just my opinion, but if the leaders of the non-Muslim countried don't remove their heads from the warm dark places they seem to be keeping them; well we will be/are in deep kim-chi, and that's not a pleasant place to be.
When israel had a few troops kidnapped, they went out and kicked arse and are taking names.
When the terrorist kidnap our boys, torture and behead them, we wring our hands and say, "Woe is me!" Don't humiliate any raghead prisoners. The have rights. BULLCRAP! What rights did the American civilians and soldiers have when that slimey piece of excrement named Zarquawi sawed their heads off with what was apparently a dull knife? Absolutely none.
I have seen one of the videos of Mr. Z sawing the head off what appearred to be a 60 year old man. As far as I am concerned, you can nuke the whole damned Middle East and be done with it. Until you have sat down as watched what was done in the name of Allah, their god, then I feel your opinions don't mean squat. Any excuse like I don't need to see is is nothing more than a cop out. I didn't sleep for two days after seeing that. maybe, instead of the media claiming that it is too graphic for our poor sensibilites, they do their job and show the people exactly what kind of chicken crap types we're dealing with.
The matter of the fact is this, more people have been killed/murdered in the name of religion than for any other cause.
Normally, when I rant about something, I will apologize to those I may have offended. I hope that if I have offended anyone, that they will forgive me for not apologizing this time.
Paul B.

PJgunner
Living in Germany, I see and talk to Turkish people daily, in fact today, a 3 man-muslam group informed me that the Koran states (just like christians) suicide is a sin. The extrimist are not mayrters, but misguided sinners.

They said you gain the glory of Allah in battle (as in solder vs. solder) not by blowing your self up, but Turkey is a pretty modern country compared to their eastern bordered muslems.

Keep in mind what you wrote is true to some groups. How Alqueda and radical groups pull off the 16-Virgin bluff, is find some of the THOUSANDS who can't read or write, and read them the Koran (blink-blink) their way, then yes every one is an infadel, and should be destroyed.
True muslems do indeed 'look down' on non-muslems as lesser beings. But they (historically) use the lessers as servants. Why wipe out potential laborers.

I my self am weary of the muslem culture I truly admit.

But in ANY CULTURE, when you mix religon in to your politics, (as in the Islamic republic of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ fill in blank) it is gioing to be bastardized and get all out of controll, just like now.

If you brain wash people in thinking they are doing Gods' work, they get weird. Look at Koresch, and Jonestown, even some of us western-wasps fall for the trap. In the mid-east they just took it too far on a large scale.


And on the Mexico invasion I created for my senerio, the answer is ,yes. If you as political body, or party, breech another nations borders, and kidnap citizens, you get what you deserve. I just chose Mexico as an example because of our weak border with them.

But for this Israel thing going on, the PLO types run Gaza, sponsored terrorist are in the parlament in Beirut. THEY KNEW WHAT ISRAELS RESPONCE WOULD BE! I guarentee they were hopeing the 'rest of the muslem world' would ralley.

And here is the clintcher for me. We as Americans should tolerate Israels mistakes, because until I see all those WMD's that caused the invasion of Iraq, I think 2,500+ brave young American solders, marines and airmen & sailors dead, so far has been for absoulutly nothing.

And don't think I am a peacenik, I was in Desert Storm, and in the US Army for 10 years (with a real honest to gosh honorable discharge), and am trying to go reserve.

The US State department along with the UN and Israel have been pressuring Lebanon for years to turn out the Hezbollah terrorist cells which operate safely within it's borders and receives funding from Syria and Iran. Lebanon's own armed forces have many that are Hezbollah loyalists that will not tow the party line for fear of risking another bloody civil war.

The fact that we STILL do not see the Lebanese government raiding the cities themselves to turn these terrorist ragheads in to me is very telling. They'll continue to whimper and plea for the U.N. and international community to mediate a cease fire but take no responsibility, even as their own cities are being leveled with missles and bombs.

I do feel badly for the poor souls caught in the crossfire and the innocent loss of life but I also cannot believe that the citizens of Lebanon are not taking to arms and dragging their current government through the streets to turn out these terrorist cells operating within their country.

Israel has had enough. I do not support all of what I am seeing and reading but at the same time, I have to admit that I have a small part of me that is admiring the hell out of their response. One way or another, these ragheads are going to get turned-out.

Personally, I'd like to see this same type of response (perhaps more extreme) levied against Syria as well as the foremost terrorist recruiter, supplier, and financier in the world.

People have been putting up with two much crap for far too long. Somebofy else coined it and I have to agree-you haven't seen Japan start any trouble in a long time, have you?

Flashback: Clinton says he would have died for Israel
 

Too bad he didn't get his chance...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.a...4-8-2002_pg1_6

A true warrior... :D

Guys, after doing a bunch of reading, I think I will have to side with Israel over the long run, but still have a problem with all the trouble going on right now. If you are going to start this trouble, how about ending it. It truly sucks that this thing has been going on for decades and decades. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the entire Middle East was removed from existence. America would learn how to deal with less oil and we could have some semblance of peace in the world. Of course, I don't think anybody will agree with nuking the place because of the fallout and other consequences, but it would still be nice for it to be gone.

PJgunner, I agree with you.
It gets you to wonder also about the UN, they are condemning Israel, saying Israel is breaking the International law by cutting off Beirut from the rest of the world, however Israel is taking out the access points that Syria and Iran are supplying arms to the Hezbollah/and or Lebonese.
Just like Iraq, the French and Russians were against going in, the main reason was they knew what would be found, weapons made by the French and Russians.(and they are members of the UN)
The UN's credibility and backbone has gone to hell in a handbasket. As far as I'm concerned, Israel has ever right to do what they are doing
Haven't seen UN condemning anyone else, except Israel !
Kind of makes a person wonder, What's wrong with this picture ?
You don't see Lebon hunting down Hezbollah terrorist . So if they are not against them, there's only one other answer They are for them .
As far as the UN goes, if Israel waits for them to act, there would be no Israel left. It's a plain fact, and these surrounding nations and terrorist know, if you mess with Israel, they are coming back at you. It's a standing policy. As the old saying goes, don't punch a sleeping dog, because he WILL bite you. And I think that is what is happening now, Israel didn't start this and they won't back down.

The UN is in danger of going the way of the Dodo. While the intent of this body is good historically, they have been less than productive in serious situations in the recent past.

Personally I think it is time they get their **** together and actually do something constructive in a serious situation some time in the near future or they will lose what little credibility they have left. There have been a number of situations where their response has been abysmal, if not criminal, and yet no one holds them to task.....................time to make all of those deligates earn their life style and globe trotting!!!

in your last paragraph last sentence you make mention of something important. in reference to that, have you ever read the story about masada? it happened when the jews were fighting the roman empire.

Be careful to recognize any slant the mainstream media puts on this war...when Israel decided it needed a homeland a half century ago...they took territories that belonged to the Palestinians for centuries. In some cases, they literally gave the Palestinian people days to get out of there homes with no compensation. In their quest for their rights to establish a state of their own, they pissed alot of people off. It is not as simple as a difference in religion. I personally think the world unestimated the core hatred the Arabs had for the Jews that has festered for decades. This hatred has spawned groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Hezbollah whether you agree with their religion or not is doing what the jews did 55 years ago...trying to establish their own state for their sect. Do I think its a good idea? No, they are extremist and dangerous, but they are as adamant about it as the Jews were. Over many Presidents and many hours of so-called peace processes, the Israeli's have on numerous occations violated almost every aspect of agreements under the guise of "Demanding a homeland" with many of the European nations and the west turning a blind eye to these violations. Is it any wonder some of these groups formed? I have mixed emotions and have for many years about our alignment with Israel, I suppose in the big picture it is in our best interest to stamp these groups out and keep a firm grasp in this area for fuel and strategic reasons...but I inherited the fight of the jews for a homeland, now my children have, and make no mistake, my son's children will inherit it with all its repercusions. So since we did, one thing is for sure, We are here...and I am sick and tired of the Bush bashing, the arm-chair politicians and the time-line to pull our troops out...newsflash we are in it, and we are in it for the next 50 years...

PS...now I am not sure but I can almost make a guess....when they come to an agreement as to who will be responsible for pickin up the tab for rebuilding the infrastructure in Lebanon, you'll see the bombs stop flying...and you can bet it wont be Israel......ready to bend over everyone?????

This issue goes back far longer than a century ago Val- it goes back to the Old Testament and Abraham's birth-right blessing to his son's Ephraim and Mennasah-which gives claim to the land which both Israel and the Palestinians reside.

That visit that was mentioned in a earlier post about then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, was not done in an act of extending the ol' olive branch. He walked the Temple Mount which to a person residing in this area, clearly demonstrates ownership. This started the riot and ensuing violence once again in this particular region- a point by and large unreported in any western mainstream reporting. No surprise there.:rolleyes:

I know this isnt popular, but I personally dont give a damn about Israel and give less each day. Our generation inherited a commitment made long ago....and for the life of me I cant get a solid answer that would sustain my commitment or my grandchildren's. Hey maybe I'll feel different tomorrow, but everytime I posed a question as to America's undying, unwavering commitment to this ....All I get is some comment that I may be anti-semitic.....No...I would just love to fully understand why we endure the world's wrath for this commitment and someone please explain the dynamics to me that makes sense.

I agree that Israel has the right to get their troops back. I'm not sure I totally agree with the way they're going about it because a lot of civilians are either getting killed or injured or just losing everything when their home gets blown up. I don't know enough about economics or politics to argue those points but I do believe that Israel should do what they feel necessary to get their troops back.

What is hilarious is that if you were to say "Go Muslims" you would be anti-semitic, but if you say "Go Israel" you aren't considered anti-muslim or anti-arab, or even if you are considered anti-muslim or anti-arab, that is fine.

The more I read about this, the more I find both sides doing things to one another to keep this feud going forever. As I said earlier, the entire Middle East should be nuked because there isn't one purely innocent side with completely clean hands. The Arabs gode on the Jews, and the Jews gode on the Arabs. Yeah, the arabs started this thing in this century by attacking Israel right after it became a country. However, Israel continues to do stuff to the arabs to piss them off. This invasion, killing of civilians, and destruction of non-military targets is one example.

Now, if Israel were to help rebuild Beirut, then I might have a slightly different opinion. Of course, if I were a betting man I wouldn't be betting for Israel to help Beirut rebuild after this is over.

I think its time for this generation to ask and get answers...in a very short time this government or the next will commit our sons and daughters to this effort, I need to know why. In as much as I have no connection with Islam or its people, I am starting to wonder if we werent better served to maintain a stronger stance and friendship with the Arab States instead of what we have done...the old "Israel's right to a homeland" isnt enough for me anymore, but its the way it has always been and I get the feeling we are not suppose to question it....well I am questioning??? I e-mailed a Chabad this am and very respectively asked the Rabbi why? I'll bet you 500 bucks he doesnt respond....Actually I have been asking for a few years now, I have never gotten an answer from anyone, and believe me I was nice...

An old friend of mine was in Europe during the last days of WW II and helped liberate a concentration camp, he also spent some time in post war Germany before being discharged. It was during this time that Israel was set up in it's current location.

I think my friend had the right idea. He said that the UN or whoever set up the country of Israel should have put it in the Northwest Territories or Australia or Alaska or somewhere else that was looking for people to come and settle at the time. To take land from Arabs is like trying to take a kill from a grizzly bear and expecting it to be happy about it.

I read also in the initial years of looking for a homeland, I think it was on the coast of South Africa was a number one choice...imagine of the aggravation we would have saved....

val

this fight for a homeland goes back much further than 1947. this has been an on going fight by the jewish people for four thousand years.

do a search for internet history-israel, and be prepared for a few hours of reading what you don't know about. i was only 10 years old when the israeli state was formed. i was a voracious reader at that time, my grandfathers told me to always be a breast of what is happening in political affairs, both nationaly and internationaly. i have aspired to do that. had it not been for my grandfathers keeping an ear close to the ground little billy d. would be a grease spot on an oven floor somewhere in treblinka, buchenwald or aushwitz.

as for the jews resolve about their homeland read about the story of masada when the roman empire declared war on the jews. as for the old saying "we shall never forgive nor forget those who have wronged us" it still holds true today. maybe be a bit childish, but it is better to stand for something than to fall for anything. do i hear a song?

you might ask why the roman empire declared war on the jews. easy to answer 1. they were religious, at this time in history the romans were pagans, 2. sheer numbers. the jews were few in numbers and it was an easy victory. and the commanders got a feather in their caps.

well since the formation of the israeli state the jews are not spread out like they were before ww2. they are not easy to round up out of the ghettos like what happened in germany, poland and russia. for the first time in 4000 years we have a homeland to protect and protect it they will.

the palistinians may have a small gripe in the land deal, but it was jordan that screwed them over not the israelis. but will palistine fight jordan, nooooooo. they are arab brothers. sides that it's easier to make israel look like the red haired stepchild.

i don't understand your stance on how the u.s. will pick up the costs of repatriating lebanon. thats for them and israel to settle their own differences. israel is not harboring terrorists, lebanon is. if you want to harbor terrorists you are a bad guy right along with them. if you are not our friend in the war on terror then you are our foe. simple as that.

you will never see peace in that region for one simple reason, arabs, i should say muslims, can not get along with themselves. look at iraq. three different muslim sects and they all hate each other. and here we are with our a$$ stuck in the middle.

think iraq will end up a democracy? i don't expect to see it in my lifetime. it will end up like pre saddam. one dictator and lots of mass burial sites.

rant mode off. it's pepcid time.

forgot to type in a link. http://www.fordham.edu/hallsal/ancient/asbook06.html