The US military is going back to the .45 ACP.

[Adam Helmer]

On September 2, 2005, the U.S. Special Operations Command issued Proposed Solicition #H92222-05-R-0017 for 645,000 units of Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System in caliber .45 ACP.

About 1985, the US Military went to the 9mm Beretta pistol with only a few elite units keeping the .45 ACP. Now the military wants to acquire 45,000 .45 pistols without external safety and 600,000 units with external safety configuration. They also want standard and high capacity magazines and 132,037 Suppressor Attachment kits.

I would like to hear the reason (s) for this about face by the military regarding a combat pistol. Perhaps battle experience convinced the military to go back to the .45 ACP.

Adam

[Hawkeye6]

Adam:

First of all, this is still a limited group. You said the RFP was form Special Operations Command. That's the joint command for all US Spec Ops personnel, SEALS, Green Berets, Delta, Pararescue Jumpers, CCTs, etc.

Second, everything I've heard anecdotally indicates that the 9mm doesn't drop the bad guys as effectively as the .45 does. Hmm, at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Army was engaged in CQB with Moslem warriors and found the then-standard .38 calibler revovlers did not stop the enemy. Thus the birth of the .45ACP and the Model 1911. Today the Army (and the rest of our Services) find themselve engaged in CQB with Moslem warriors and the 9mm does ont seem to fill the bill...
Who is missing what here?

Hawkeye.

[Adam Helmer]

Hawkeye6,

I hear what you are saying, but 645,000 pistols is far more than the need for just Special OPs, SEALS, DELTA and Green Berets. With 135,000 +/- troops in Iraq, 645,000 pistols would be enough to give 5 pistols to EVERY soldier. Nah, that is not logical, is it? It seems there is a service wide re-equipping afoot.

I do applaud the decision to "get enough gun."

Adam

[Hawkeye6]

Well, you are the one who said SOC was issueing the RFP. To my knowledge, SOC neither acquires nor sets the standard for firearms for all the Services.

[Adam Helmer]

Hawkeye6,

You may be right, I just read Solicitation Number H92222-05-R-0017 for 645,000 Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system Caliber .45 (ACP) pistols." Maybe you could get better information from USSOCOM about their solicitation. I hope the .45 ACP pistols will be put to good use, whoever uses them. Be well.

Adam

[Hawkeye6]

If the request is coming from SOCOM, then I stand by this being some sort of special issue sidearm. Note the comment about the suppressor kits -- that is clearly not a generall issue item.

As to the number, yes, its quite a few. But I have no context to put it in for spec ops. Perhaps they want to have a ready supply to issue for training and then new ones to issue for actual operations? Are they all to be supplied at once or over a long period of itme?

My understanding is that special operations units have been getting their hands on old 1911s from whatever source and using those over in Iraq and Afghanistan. I wouldn't be surprised at them going for newly built pistols instead of 30 or 40 year old ones.

As to everyone going to a .45 cal. sidearm, its always possible, but I'd think we'd be hearing about a lot of tests and commissions to review that like went on teh the 70s and 80s over the switch to the 9mm Berretta.

[Gil Martin]

Folks,
It is what it is. All the best...
Gil



10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

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Draft Request For Proposal for Industry Comment: Response Due 09/15/05 01 - Posted on Sep 02, 2005

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General Information


Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Nov 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Nov 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office Address
Other Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323
Description
The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement. The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation. Two configurations of the pistol will be required. One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety. The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual. The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years. The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data. Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination. The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each. Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror. Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing. All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by the agency. The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications, Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS. Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist, Mr. Pfender at john.pfender@navy.mil.
Point of Contact
Tina Lopez, Contract Specialist, Phone 813 828 7063, Fax 813 828 7504, Email lopezt@socom.mil - Susan Griffin, Contracting Officer, Phone 813-828-7411, Fax 813-828-7504, Email griffi1@socom.mil



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Government-wide Numbered Notes
You may return to Business Opportunities at:
ODA USSOCOM listed by [Posted Date]
ODA Agencywide listed by [Posted Date]

[Jack]

If I recall correctly, our active duty Army right now is a tad under 500,000 people.
And they want 600,000 + pistols........
Sounds like more than Special Ops to me.
And I'm all for it- sometimes, when you need to make a hole, it's good to make a big hole.

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

I agree with you, there are far too many pistols to be procured for merely Special Ops usage. I phoned up Tina Lopez, Contract Specialist, on the bottom of Gil's posting and chatted with her yesterday. She advised me that after the 24 gun evaluation, per the posting, she would be buying a lot of pistols.

I know we have not heard anything about re-equipping the US armed forces, but something is afoot if procurement is involved. I think the 649,000 holsters and 667,000 magazine holders puts this matter into context. Stay tuned.

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Hmmm.....maybe we will see a trend here, and go back to using the 7.62 instead of the 5.56? One can only hope!

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Nah, you are far too logical to assume the old 7.62 would be a fine arm in the 21st Century. I had a Match M14 in 1982 and again in 1984 and took them to Camp Perry while a firing member of the NH High Power Rifle team.

In 1982, or 1984, Gil visited me in NH and fired my Match M14. We both shot the Matel 16 in 1965 and 1966 in the USAF, and we both prefer the M14. I have a thought for a post. Be well.

Adam

[Ranger Lanham]

Me and most guys in my unit are currently surving on our third tour here in Iraq and we've had plenty of experience with both the 9mm and the 45acp. From what we've seen the 45 beats the 9mm hands down. Some times the 9mm takes 3 or 4 well aimed shots to bring a man down when the 45 just rocks a person. And in a situation when you need to use a pistol I'd rather have the big 45 anyday.

[Dan Morris]

Not to be redundent, most of the ole grey warriors have always known that the 45 has more knockdown power! Alas, we were not consulted in MilSpecs...(Military Speculation). I also agree in the 7.62 messages.
Dan

[Ranger Lanham]

I also agree that the 7.62 is better than the 5.56. I carry both a M-4 with a 203 grenade launcher and a scope sighted M-14 with me on every patrol.

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by Ranger Lanham
I also agree that the 7.62 is better than the 5.56. I carry both a M-4 with a 203 grenade launcher and a scope sighted M-14 with me on every patrol.

Hmmm, sounds like a good equipment list for the well-prepared skinny (groundhog) shooter.