how do you guys feel about the 9mm?

model 70 · #1 10-19-2005, 07:39 PM

shot a 1911 in .45acp of course and a friends glock 22 in .40cal and both are hard to get back on target. seems like the 9mm would be better for quicker target aquizition. does it have the stopping power for personal defense? i know my buddy in the marines carried a sidearm in 9mm so that has to mean something, right?

TreeDoc · #2 10-19-2005, 07:51 PM

The 9mm NATO round is a bit anemic but I wouldn't stand in front of one for any amount of money.

With today's new 9mm rounds like the Federal Hi-Shok, Corbon's, etc. I don't feel one bit undergunned when carrying a Nine. My favorite is my Glock 17 with the Dawson sites. It's also cheap shootin' if you buy or build the mouse loads.

gregarat · #3 10-19-2005, 08:55 PM

The 9mm has plenty of power, to do the job.

A lot of people put it down, and says that the .40, or .45 is the ONLY way to go. If the 9mm is so awful why is it the most popular cartridge in the world? Also, the N.Y.P.D. has great results with a Glock 19. Sure the .45, or .40 is better, if its only one round. . The 9mm can hold more ammo. Remember, Col. Jeff Cooper U.S.M.C. says "Anything worth shooting, is worth shooting twice" Also remember if you are to use one for defence, use HP ammo. Ball 9mm is bad for anything, except targets. A 9mm I personally wish I afford to get is a Rohrbaugh R9S.

Honestly I dont like the recoil from a .40, it has a lot of snap. And is very high pressure round.

Quote:

i know my buddy in the marines carried a sidearm in 9mm so that has to mean something, right?

Ya, it means that the armed forces issues it. I dont understand why they would do such a thing? The U.S. armed forces complies to the Hague Convention. An article of the Convention states that its prohibited to use ammunition that can lead to suffering, like expandable rounds. (Although some Special forces use Ball .45)

Rocky Raab · #4 10-19-2005, 08:58 PM

I'd agree. The niner's very much deserved bad reputation stems from its horrible success at man stopping -- with full-jacketed bullets. That's true of almost any handgun cartridge with roundnose bullets: the .38 Special is a prime example.

But with some of today's high-tech bullets, it's more than adequate.

No, it's not as good as a cartridge whose name starts with a "4" but it's certainly adequate. I have enough confidence in it that I gave one to my older daughter who lives alone.

gregarat · #5 10-19-2005, 09:03 PM

Great point Rocky,
I carry my .38 snubby all the time, and I dont feel underguned. But it is loaded with +P HP ammo. In my opinion the lowest calibber is the .380

Ive also read that even the .45 ball has only a 60-64% stopping rate.

skeet · #6 10-19-2005, 11:28 PM

In my opinion the 9MM sucks as a defensive round. I like the 45 auto much better and can shoot it better also. Rocky is right about the new high tech ammo for the 9mm . But I still like the 45. But having a 9MM even with ball ammo beats holding a knife in a gun fight. Oh BTW the 45 ammo that is used by a lot of the Special ops groups usually isn't ball ammo...especially when used in terrorist operations. Terrorists and guerillas aren't covered in the Geneva convention rules...or so I was told...a long time ago in a galaxy far far away

gregarat · #7 10-20-2005, 02:31 AM

It seems your right Skeet.

Quote:

Oh BTW the 45 ammo that is used by a lot of the Special ops groups usually isn't ball ammo...especially when used in terrorist operations. Terrorists and guerillas aren't covered in the Geneva convention rules...or so I was told...a long time ago in a galaxy far far away

Here's a few Link talking about it
Link:Swich form 9mm to .45 for military.
Link:speaks about spec ops use of 9mm HP, but still illustrates the point
I myself do hope our Military would use HP's. Its not that we have to go by the Hague convention, for some stupid reason we just choose to

.

I still think the 9mm is a fine defencive round, using good HP ammo. Especially so if you don't feel comfortable about using a .40 or .45.

Mr. 16 gauge · #8 10-20-2005, 01:58 PM

I like the 9mm! I have 2 currently (CZ75B and a S&W M39) and had a Walther P-38. Practice ammo is cheap and readily available (even though I prefer to reload my own), and there is a plethora of good, reliable defensive ammo available nowadays. The M39 is currently my main CCW gun, and I have it loaded with Speer GDHPs.
I think that a lot of the 'bad press' that the 9mm has gotten over the years is no longer viable......back in the 70's and 80's, HPs that expanded reliably needed to have large amounts of exposed lead in order to do so, and feeding problems resulted...with todays newer HPs, this isn't the problem that it once was.....
I've often heard it said that "a .45 makes a bigger hole"; makes sense theoretically, but that isn't what I necessarily see in practice. RN bullets don't make 'holes' in flesh and organs...the make 'tears', and if the edges are not torn cleanly, the clotting mechanism shuts down the bleeding....even in big 'holes'. This is one reason I prefer SWC lead bullets in my .38; it acts like a 'punch press' and leaves hole that is more difficult to plug. Seen too many people shot with all manner of handguns in the past few years.....my general summation is 'anyone shot with anything .38 cal or bigger usually doesn't do well; anything smaller and they usually live to tell about it".
Just MHO, FWIW.

HANDGUNNER · #9 10-20-2005, 05:59 PM

The 9mm is fine. I carry a .38spl w/+P hollow points and it's not as good as a 9mm. True, I'd rather have a .40, .357 sig, or a .45 acp, but I wouldn't feel lacking with a 9mm.

For those of us who have had the miss fortune to have to shoot someone, you realize that it's not like the movies. I've seen people all shot up with great caliber bullets and they didn't get stopped right away. I was at a school a couple of years ago with two former British Army guys. They have seen more action than I ever will. They couldn't understand why someone would carry something more than a 9mm.

gregarat · #10 10-21-2005, 04:29 AM

Like what HANDGUNNER said.

There just any such a thing as a "magic bullet". Ive heard a story of a person who has taken a full mag from a .45, and they still didn't go down. I know a Crack dealer, from when I worked security in Syracuse N.Y. Who was shot in the head, and hes still dealing (he does wears an eye patch). I personally know NYS troopers, a retired detective from West Palm who have seen many people on a metal table, with a toe tag. That were killed with almost any type of handgun cartridge you can imagine. It all boils down to shot placement. Shure some cartridges are more efficient than others, but any cartridge can kill.

Don't count on a round to do composite for good marksmanship. Just Practice, practice, then practice some more. Pulse like what Col. Jeff Cooper U.S.M.C. said "Anything worth shooting, is worth shooting twice!"

Classicvette63 · #11 10-21-2005, 02:10 PM

There is a phenomena nowadays where when a new round comes out, all of a sudden old rounds can't do anything. The .30-30, .35Rem, 300Savage etc. can't kill deer because there are new superboomers out there.

Same goes for self defense rounds and it's pure bunk. If you put a 9mm where you want it, chances are you are going to walk away.

BILLY D. · #12 10-21-2005, 03:11 PM

it ain't my favorite, but it beats the heck out of fingernails. i prefer big holes and lots of weight. i just read an article awhile back where the military is going back to 45acp. i don't think it will be next week though.

with the right bullets and proper shooter appliance the 9mm is adequate. but it still isn't my favorite.

yes i do have one and a 38 super also and 3 45 acp's plus 3, 357mags, 2,45colts and a 41mag. wanna try and get them away from me?

Adam Helmer · #13 10-22-2005, 10:10 AM

Model 70,

I carried a Glock 19 for 7 years as an agent. While I prefer the Colt M1911, the Glock 19 was fine as a duty gun since there were 15 in the magazine; just shoot twice or three times. My advice is: "keep shooting until the target falls away from the front sight." The only one-shot stops I know of came from a 12 gauge riot gun. We got a teletype at the agency in the early 1990s where a felon was shot 19 times with a 9mm and survived. The shot placement was poor, but one 9mm round did find the felon's "naughty bits."

Adam

Adam Helmer · #14 10-22-2005, 02:25 PM

Mr. 16 gauge,

I just tried to send you a PM about the shooting incident in MI which is the one about the "Sans male organ." I think I will get a new computer after I do my taxes. Til then, I think your PM today was about the incident in my prior post. Be well.

Adam

Critch · #15 10-25-2005, 05:25 PM

I carry 14 +P 9mm's in my Steyr, I dont' feel undergunned. However, a lot of it does have to do with the round used.

In 1978 a police officer in our town had to shoot a hopped up bad guy 11 times with 9mm (military ball ammo) to stop him, the bad guy bled out (6 of the rounds were torso shots).

A year later, another cop had to only use one 9mm hollowpoint to stop a drunk who had just killed two people and was waving a gun at people in the street. The bad guy was dead when he hit the ground. A torso shot, I dont' know if it was a +P or not.

Anything will kill you. I did have to sit on a coroner's inquest many years ago. Two idiots got into an argument at a local tavern, one pulled out a Ruger Blackhawk 22 and shot the other guy one time, the bullet went between two ribs, broke apart and one part hit the heart, the other lodged in the back near a kidney. The guy was dead very quickly.

Having said all this, I have serously considered going to a .45 Kimber or Colt for that little edge.