OLN- "Dangerous Game"

[OneShotBandit]

WOW! Did any of you guys see last Thursdays episode? They were Elephant hunting (I forgot where)! This hunter with what looks like a .500 dbl rifle shoots the bull while down on his haunches! They were sneaking from behind and all of a sudden the bull turns and starts coming- not faking! The hunter (shots first) & PH both shoot and you could see the dust off the bulls head! Do I sound a bit excited? It was just freakin' increadible! It looked nice maybe a 70 pounder?

Virgil

[fabsroman]

I saw it and they were hunting in Zimbabwe in a park that got most of its elephants from portions of Africa where the elephants had been heavily hunted by poachers. Because of the heavy hunting by poachers, these elephants in the Zimbabwe park were not keen towards humans (i.e., they did not like humans).

Both guys that took the initial shots on the elephant were professional hunters, it just so happened that one of them was able to afford the cost of the tag, all of which went back into managing the elephant herd according to the show. Further, the taking of the old bull was for management reasons (i.e., the herd was getting too big).

The first two shots were made while the professional hunters were standing up and while the elephant was charging full force (i.e., with no intent of stopping). One shot was fired from each professional hunter and both of them missed the brain. Several follow up shots were made to anchor and kill the animal.

What kills me is all the hype beforehand about having to hit the elephant in the brain to stop a full force charge or the hunter could die. Seems as though striking the elephant anywhere in the head is enough to stun him and allow for plenty of follow up shots. I don't think that elephant got off the ground once after the first shot was fired. I also didn't like the fact that everybody was firing on this elephant. Yeah, the hunter got the first shot in there, but what makes him think it is his trophy since it took about 4 guns to kill this elephant. If he wanted the trophy, he should have done all the shooting on his own. Then again, I am sure the rest of the group didn't want to die right then if he happened to miss.

As far as killing elephants is concerned, I take it that they are no longer endagered species. I could be wrong about this. Personally, I probably would never kill an elephant, just like I have no desire to kill a big cat, a wolf, or a giraffe. What I didn't like seeing at the end was the hunters carrying the ivory over their shoulders as a trophy. The ivory is the entire reason that the elephants experienced extreme poaching. Do we have to be reminded of this?

[fishnfrank]

Hey fabsroman, I agree with you totally. I myself would never shoot one, but I did read a very good article on elephant hunting in sports afield. The title was called what to do with 10,000 pounds of meat. This hunt takes place in Zambia. They outlawed elephant hunting years ago because of the drop in numbers. Now that they have brought their herd numbers back up, they are giving out just a few tags each year. The great thing is, when an elephant is killed, people come from miles around, many villages show up and help dress out the animal. No parts go unused and nobody can go home until the job is totally done. I agree, the tuscs are the only thing they propably care about, but atleast the animal doesn't go to waste. I also thought it was interesting that the organs such as the liver and the heart were really special and everyone wanted them. I don't remember what the guy was using but I think he only shot once, because they all took off after the shot for fear of the others charging. I do remember it was big, one tusk weighed 60 lbs. and the other 57lbs.

[OneShotBandit]

I on the otherhand have always dreamed of shooting the "Holy Grail" of big game! The show did not offend me one bit! If I ever could get the funds (hit the lottery) I want to go on a 30 day safari for the Big 5 (maybe replace the rhino with a Hippo). I think the tusks would be a GREAT trophy as I'm not a meat hunter! Give the meat to the natives, give me the tusks, though I'm not sure they can be imported to the U.S. I shock my hunting buddies from Chicago (liberal hunters, what an oxymoron) when I stated about shooting an elephant!

Virg

[fabsroman]

That is hilarious OneShotBandit. "Liberal Hunters"

Let me throw this out there. There are two extremes of sportsmen. Those who actually care about the environment, and those that only care about themselves. I have hunted with guys that kill over a 100 ducks in a day, well over the limit, and they don't even eat them. They do the same thing with geese and throw them in the dumpster. They throw their trash in the bay while we are fishing. They spend tons of time and money in the pursuit of the biggest whitetail of the year so that they can prove that they are the best hunter.

Then there is the opposite side. Hunters that go out there just to hunt. To experience the hunt with their buddies, dogs included. Essentially, to have a great time. If they kill a big buck, they are not sending pics of it via telephone. They are not calling every relative they have. They are content with shooting nothing the entire day or leaving with a limit.

Let me ask you this question. Why is an elephant hunt such a trophy hunt if it requires you to win the lottery, or mortgage the house, to do it?

I have killed two decent size bucks. To most, they are big. To those mentioned in the first paragraph, they merely have antlers. I have killed tons of waterfowl and limit upon limit of doves. The two bucks are great memories of mine, but that is because there are two great stories behind them. The limits of birds really don't provide too many great memories for me, then again, there are some limits that do (i.e., the guys that treated my dad and I like 2nd rate citizens and did not let us hunt in with them only to watch us limit out on geese before they even killed one in the field next to us). Some of my great memories are the following:

1. Wounding a goose 2 years ago just to watch my 7 month old lab run over a hill and emerge a couple of minutes later with the bird. It was well over a 200 yard retrieve and I thought I was going to have to chase the bird and dog all day. My dog was so proud he was shaking his tail the entire way back and I was extremely excited. That was the only bird we killed that afternoon because they were flaring (i.e., we left something out in plane sight that we didn't see until we left). I consider that to be a great hunt.

2. Earlier in that year, I went hunting with the 4 1/2 month old puppy and my dad again. I crushed two mallards that peeled off a group of 5 and came through the trees. The puppy retrieved both. That was all the action for that day, but it was a success.

I can go on and on about this, but trophies are what you make them to be. What is funny is that people that care so much about what is hanging on the wall miss a lot of what hunting is about.

If somebody wins the lottery and goes on that "dream" elephant hunt, does that make them a better hunter than the guy next door? How about a better person? Does the hunter that pulls the trigger on a bald eagle become a better hunter than the guy that doesn't? Is the guy that has permission to hunt the best property in the state a better hunter than the less fortunate guy that has to hunt public property?

At the end of the day, I can understand elephant hunting if the population is too great AND they cannot feasibly be relocated to an area that is lacking native elephants. Then, I am all for it, but I still think the "trophy" status of the ivory should be diminished. The "trophy" status of the ivory is what almost ensured that you would never have the opportunity to hunt an elephant regardless of whether or not you won the lottery. Kind of like the guys that shoot over the limit on Cans (i.e., ensuring that Canvasbacks become extinct) or those polluting the waterways to ensure that there are no fish for the next generation. Why is it that most men and women have to have what is not plentiful.

I could go on and on about this. Shark fin soup is another example.

[pomoxis]

One thing that many of you are missing is that a trophy fee for an elephant supports the governments anti poaching patrols, the employment of the safari staff from the local village and the free meat puts the highest value of the land as habitat for wildlife. In Zimbabwe the trophy fee for a cape buffalo bull will support a school for an entire year. The only thing left in the field from my cape buffalo was the lower intestine, lungs and lower jaw. Every thing was packed out 1.5 miles to the nearest road.

Here is another thing to consider is the tusk less elephant hunt. Since there had been over a century of taking elephants with ivory the population of tusk less animals in some areas has risen over time. Tusk less elephants need to steal food or raid the villagers crops and are often more aggressive. When ever there is a conflict between wildlife and people the wildlife loses.

Before I went to Zimbabwe I did not think I would ever want to hunt elephants. After a couple of encounters and realizing that even at 35 yards away it is hard to see an elephant hunting the elephants would be a challenge.

There was an outdoor writer when ask if given a choice of what to hunt he normally responds anything in season. He then went on to explain even to other hunters it is hard to describe the lure of hunting elephants. I did not understand what he meant until I went to Africa.

[fabsroman]

I'll agree that it is fine to hunt anything that is in season. However, I also think a line needs to be drawn between the lure of the license fee and the population of the game. I completely understand that the fee for killing that elephant was used to further help the elephants and other game in the park. I thought I stated that in the first post. They just need to be careful about how many licenses they give out just because they need food or new schools.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I would hate to see what happened in North America to the Buffalo happen in Africa.

I also understand that all the meat from the animal was used.

Are rhino's still endangered? Just wondering because there was a comment above that one would be included in the great 5 hunt.

Who knows, maybe if I were in Africa and got to see everything first hand, I might be pulling the trigger on an elephant. I highly doubt it, but who knows. Granted, I wouldn't hesitate if it were charging.

Another question. If there are so many tuskless elephants and they are causing trouble, why don't they hunt these?

Finally, I also understand that whenever there is a conflict between wildlife and people, the wildlife always loses.

[pomoxis]

Some contries like Zimbabwe has tuskless elephant hunts that can be set up through the safari companies. The cost of the elephant hunt is about the same as a buffalo hunt. Other countries like Tanzania the government is the only ones to control problem animals.

Having a bull elephant close from 35 yards down to 20 will change your perspective on life. I was a little more frightend when we came across a herd of 4 elephants that also had a calf at 30 yards.

The White rhino in South Africa have stable populations and a few are hunted. In most other coutries they are not doing very well

[OneShotBandit]

fabsroman, in the above comment I stated that I would replace the Rhino (white or black) w/killing a bull Hippo. To your reply as why shooting an Elephant to me is not a bad thing: I've always dreamed of going to Africa. The stories of real men (Ruark, Bell, Roosevelt & Capstick) going on tent safaris were dreams to me. I swore if that if I had the money I, too would go on( to me) one of these most ultimate hunts. You may not see the need to kill an Elephant, but IMHO I don't see the danger of shooting "Bambi" other then Trophy & meat (same thing isn't it)! I know duckhunting isn't dangerous, either (other then maybe drowning). I'm a waterfowl hunter by the way. I hardly shoot a limit and yes I agree that just being out is great. I lost a brother several years ago of a heart attack (he was 46) and I love to get out to the blind smoke a Montecristo, drink expresso and think of him as the sun rises. BUT I have shot several "Trophy (to me)" ducks- all drakes: Can, Pintail, Black & GW Teal. I didn't get them mounted though, I wished I had! You know this subject can go along the lines of Gun Control ie: good guns vs. bad guns, etc. Yes I own several Assault.... oops I mean semi auto military look-a-like guns. I'm also a memeber in good standings in the NRA. I guess the only thing we agree is that we disagree on BIG/Dangerous game hunting. By the way I forgot that w/the Tusks I would also also have the Elephant's feet made into wastepaper baskets... see nothing wasted!

Virgil

[fabsroman]

OneShotBandit,

Fair enough reply. Like you, I too would love to hunt Africa if I had the funds.

We might disagree about killing an elephant, but my disagreement is only with them not being in plentiful supply. If they were as abundant as the zebra, I might even shoot one. As far as dangerous game hunts are concerned, they don't seem that dangerous when the elephant goes right down from the first shot to the head. Granted, a group of elephants charging would be an entirely different ball game.

At the end of the day, something tells me that you and I have some of the same views about this. I was just wondering why people would want to shoot an elephant if they aren't abundant.

As far as mounting waterfowl is concerned, I have shot my fair share of mallard and gw teal drakes and didn't mount a single one. The one duck I did get mounted was a cross between a domestic duck and a mallard. That duck was huge and it had some awesome purple to it. The only duck I regret not mounting was the mallard drake I shot with two leg bands on it, one being a $100 reward band.

[Hawkeye6]

This has been kind of an intersting read.

Seems to me that a lot of it can be summed up as personal prefence. I'm kind of on board with Fabs as far as elephants go largely becaus I don;t know what I'd do if I bagged one. I guess if it was part of a herd reduction or to cull out one that's raidinga village....

I often apply the same reaosning to huning Stateside. I have little if any deisre to hunt bear, probably because they seem too much like dogs to me. But I'd be very interesed in in hog hunt sometime. Hogs seem to be a bit more of a dangerous animal to me, at least as far as North America goes.

If I went on a safari, I'm not sure what Id want to hunt. Maybe a Cape Buffalo?

H.

[pomoxis]

Hunting in Africa is an addiction and you are really hooked if you hunt dangerous game. I was so pumped up with adrenalin while hunting Cape buffalo that it was a full 24 hours after my buffalo was down before I reacted to the tsetse fly bites. I know some of the bites were over 5 days old. On the drive from the buffalo area to the plains game area I could watch the welts just start to rise as I relaxed.

Zebra surprised me on how skittish they were and they would stop in the shadow of the brush and the stripes made it difficult picking up the vital triangle to place the shot. It is not like going out to a pasture and shooting a pony.

The other thing that surprised me was how well a elephant can hide 35 yards away from you. With all the brush getting into position to place the 1 shot kill is often down to 15 to 20 yards. If you don't do it right the first time the reaction time of an elephant or you have more than 1 elephant could make things real interesting.

[Skyline]

The other interesting thing about this thread is how strong opinions and convictions can be from people even when they obviously don't know very much about the subject in the first place.

I very much subscribe to the a statement made by a very wise man who said, " everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it had better be a learned one."

I find it very disturbing that people doing one form of hunting or another have to spend a great deal of time defending themselves to other hunters. Perhaps if people took the time to read and learn a bit about things before they spouted off about it we, as hunters, wouldn't be in the predicament we are in......world wide.

Hunters condemn other hunters all the time........bow hunters snub rifle hunters, traditional blackpowder enthusiasts snub in-line users, and the all time favorite.......meat hunters turn thumbs down on the dreaded 'trophy' hunter.

I for one would love to go on an elephant hunt for a big bull......and I would proudly display his tusks in my trophy room, but I too lack the funds. I have been lucky enough to hunt Africa and a lot of other places. It has taken a lot of effort and passing on other things that I deemed less important. To the elephant hunter, the tusks from the elephant are the same as the antlers from the whitetaiil hunter.

Remember endangered only applies to the specific area you are talking about..........some countries do not have a lot of elephants and perhaps they have had poaching problems. Others have more than enough elephants and need to keep their numbers in check with the available habitat. It's that simple and people spouting off about things they do not know anything about are often the ones that sway public sentiment and cause problems for countries that have legitimate wildlife management plans in place.

Their plans to attract foreign hunters and the much needed money it brings into the local economies are thwarted by the well intentioned but misinformed. In the end the losers are the local wildlife and the indigenous people.

[BILLY D.]

kelly

welcome to the forum. your explanations are valid ones. see ya back at the nest.

theres good folks on this forum also.

[fabsroman]

Holy Cow, I hope we aren't saying that I'm a bad person for my posts above. LOL

I completely understand that the elephants were getting a little over populated where this hunt went on. However, a lot of them had been relocated to this place from heavily poached areas. So, why can't they be relocated to an area that is lacking elephants that used to have elephants before they were poached?

If the answer is that the cost would be too much, that is fine. If the answer is that there are enough elephants in the world and they are no longer endangered, that answer would be even better.

At the end of the day, I think you will find that I do try and find out most of the answers to things and don't just form an opinion on a whim.

Regarding hunting seasons and such, I am sure that there are many influences on whether hunting a certain species is allowed as there are plenty of influences on hunting season lengths and bag limits. I know the DNR here in Maryland gets pressure from auto insurance companies to thin out the deer herd because they cause way to many auto accidents. I know they get pressure from the hunters and guides on the Eastern Shore to increase the limit on migratory geese. Then again, maybe that is with the feds. In Africa, there is probably some influence by money.

If I didn't have a lot to get done tonight before taking a week long "vacation" in Florida visiting the in-laws, I would do some research to see if elephants are still on the endangered species list.