Indian SMLE .308 caliber bolt rifles.

Adam Helmer · #1 06-12-2006, 06:51 PM

About 3 years ago I bought a mint condition Jungle Carbine "Clone" in .308 caliber and a mint condition MkIII .308 "clone." Both arms have mint bores and shoot my jacketed and cast bullet handloads to about the same point of impact with the battle sights at 100 yards. I paid $100 for each arm and will buy any others I run across.

The Jungle Carbine has the typical MkIII rear sight rather than a receiver peep sight, but it is a handy arm for carry about the farm. The MkIII is robust and akin to toting a fence post, but it is very accurate with my hard cast 173 grain Lyman #311471 bullets and 13.5 grains of Unique. Both arms have 12-round magazines and are a part of military history transitioning from bolt arms to self-loaders. If you find one in nice shape, buy it and enjoy a piece of history. Good shooting.

Adam

Gil Martin · #2 06-12-2006, 09:15 PM

I have one of the Mark III rifles in .308, but have not shot it. It is a unique piece of history and seems to have been an interim arm when India was have border tensions with China back in the 1960s. Frankly, I am a bit leary of firing full power .308 loads in this rifle based on the strength of the action. Cast bullets and moderate loads with jacketed bullets should be OK. All the best...
Gil

gumpokc · #3 06-12-2006, 09:42 PM

Adam, were those made at roughly the same timeframe of the lee-enfield .410's? Not sure if they are clones or not, but i've seen more than a few recently.

Arcturus · #4 06-13-2006, 05:43 AM

I would agree with the top post here, I have a 1964 Indian .308 SMLE. I had wanted to try out a SMLE for some time, and I fell upon it for a good price ($150, a few years back), and it was in .308, so I got it. It has turned out to be a nice rifle.

As for shooting regular .308 rounds. From what I have read, the Indian .308's were made from the ground up in .308 from somewhere around 1960 forward, rifles dated earlier than that may have been rechambered. So, my thinking has been that mine, dated '64, would be fine with regular mil-surplus loads, as it was built for them...

But, if anyone has any information going against this... let me know here, I have put quite a few rounds through this rifle, and if it shouldn't be able to handel it, I'd like to know.

Adam Helmer · #5 06-13-2006, 09:27 AM

gumpokc,

First, my cast bullet is the Lyman #311467. For jacketed loads, I use a 150 spitzer ahead of a mild (low end) charge of H414 that keeps the pressure below 40,000. I use the term "clone" loosely to indicate a "look-alike" or a direct desendent rather than a rework. Maybe some were reworked by the Indians, but all rifles and carbines I have examined were new manufacture.

I have seen those MkIIIs in .410 bore and read an article they were made up for prison guards around the time of WWII.

Arcturus,

I assume the Indian Army used their standard .308 Ball load in the rifles. I have not read where they are unsafe with Ball, but I do not shoot US Ball in my Indian .308s.

Gil,

I read where the Indian Army used the bolt .308s until they got enough FN FAL rifles issued.

Adam

Brithunter · #6 07-24-2006, 03:20 AM

Hmmm the Enfields especially the Indian ones are chambered for the 7.62x51 Nato cartridge and not .308 Winchester. There are slight differences which is certain circumstance can proove to be a problem. So refering to these arms as .308 is not only wrong but could proove to be unwise.

Adam Helmer · #7 07-25-2006, 08:47 AM

Brithunter,

Thanks for your input. On page 56 of the book, "Cartridges of the World" 9th Edition, it says under the heading ".308 Winchester (7.62x51mm NATO)":

"Historical Notes, Introduced by Winchester as a new sporting cartridge in 1952, the .308 is nothing more than the NATO 7.62x51mm military round."

What differences do you see between the .308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm NATO?

Adam

Brithunter · #8 07-25-2006, 02:40 PM

Ha the never falable COTW

yes I have a copy now the I believe it's the shoulder and neck which is slightly different also the pressures are not the same.

Adam Helmer · #9 07-25-2006, 04:11 PM

Brithunter,

Mayhaps you need to advise the editor of COTW of his error about the 7.62mm NATO and .308 Winchester being the same rounds.

Adam

Gil Martin · #10 07-25-2006, 05:43 PM

There is a vast difference in these cartridges and the link below covers the topic very well. There is a significant pressure variance that one should consider carefully. The Indian Enfields are built to handle about 45,000 p.s.i. As the link states, the .308 can go considerably higher and would be a stretch for a British Enfield. Hope this helps. All the best...
Gil

http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

gumpokc · #11 07-25-2006, 10:11 PM

Agreed there is a considerable difference in 7.62x51 nato and .308 winchester.

7.62 nato uses a thicker, harder brass, at a slightly reduced pressure level. This is to be expected for a military round, as we all know battlefield conditions are rife with any numbers of factors that can raise pressure levels (trash, grit, mud, massive changes in humidity and temp) as well as ammo care once loaded into magazines.

.308winchester in general uses a softer brass that is not quite as thick, as well as some loading being well above NATO standard pressures. (interestingly enough this is one of the major causes of stuck cases, ripped heads in CETME's)

Most bolt actions chambered for either cartridge, _IF_ in good working condition, can fire either with no problems, within reason.

Semi-autos can be abit picky about the pressue levels though, especially if they were specfically designed to work at NATO standard pressure levels.

Adam Helmer · #12 07-26-2006, 06:29 PM

Gil,

I would not agree with you that "there are vast differences between these cartridges (7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester.)." If there were, do you not think Frank C. Barnes would have stated so in his book, "Cartridges of the World." I agree that 7.62 Nato brass is heavier and pressures may be lower than for the .308 Winchester, but most good semi gas guns have adjustable gas pressure to compensate for any differences in pressure.

I have shot US GI 7.62NATO Ball, Tracer and AP out of my Indian SMLEs of 7.62x51mm or .308 caliber with no ill effects. I have shot a lot of US GI 7.62x51mm LC Ball out of my Remington 700BDL .308V heavy barrel with .575" groups of GI Ball at 100 yards.

I think "vast" is too harsh a description for interchangeable ammo . Does Midway advise customers NOT to shoot 7.62x51mm Ball out of guns chambered for .308 Winchester?

Adam

Gil Martin · #13 07-26-2006, 07:05 PM

The topic was .308 Indian Enfields and as the link I posted pointed out, .308 pressures can go up to levels that I would not shoot in a British Enfield. You shot 7.62 NATO ball in your Indian Enfield and as I pointed out that would be OK due to the lower pressures. I am sure a Remington 700 can handle the pressures.

There is no danger in shooting 7.62 NATO out of a .308 chamber so Midway would have no reason to advise folks to cease and desist shooting 7.62NATO rounds out of a .308. There may be a problem in shooting .308 ammo out of a relatively weak action.

All the best...
Gil

gumpokc · #14 07-26-2006, 07:24 PM

Adam, it isnt a problem shooting 7.62 Nato out of a .308win, as a matter of fact most 7.62nato would considered a "mild" .308loading.

it's when you reverse it and fire .308's out of a 7.62nato specced weapon. The softer brass added to the higher pressures can (from personal experience) cause cases to formfit to fluted chambers, ripping off heads as the bolt tries to extract the case.

Yes this is the CETME example again, but it is one i have personal experience with. Look at the older FAL's prior to the adjustable gas ports for them, they had quite a rep for chewing up .308brass, adn head seperations as well, but they function fine with NATO specced 7.62

on average the .308win case will hold 2 to 3 grains (depending on manufacturer) more than a 7.62nato.

If we look at the .308win loading charts for , lets says the 168gr BTSP, a fairly popular loading i am sure you will agree.

The min to max loading is only 5 grains difference, now if your cases vary by 3 grains (maximum example) how dangerous is that?

even if we focus on the 2 grains difference that _can_ still be a considerable increase in pressure.

Adam Helmer · #15 07-28-2006, 12:08 PM

Gil & gumpokc,

As I pointed out in a former post on this thread, I load a "low end" charge of H414 and 150 grain jacketed bullets in my Indian rifles that are 7.62NATO/.308 Winchester. My Lyman cast bullets are fueled by mild charges of Unique.

Now as for "Vast differences" in the 7.62NATO and .308 Winchester, I just checked commercial boxes of Federal, Winchester and Remington factory loads and none said, "DO NOT FIRE IN A 7.62X51MM NATO gun." If there was a problem betwixt the two designations, I think a warning label would be prominent. I suppose SAAMI has covered the .308 field of commercial ammo like they have for the 8x57mm Mauser.

Finally, I shot a lot of commercial .308 Winchester factory ammo in my M-14s and never had a problem. I also loaded ammo for my 7.62x51mm M-14s on RCBS .308 Winchester dies. Ok, I will say no more on this matter because I have not seen a "problem" that has made it to the national consciousness, other than the "gunzone" article and that is ok.

Adam