Shotshell Questions

[Skinny Shooter]

Are the Remington green Sport Loads and the black Game Loads the same hulls?
Do they fit under this category from the Hodgdon Manual? "Remington STS, or Nitro 27, or Gun Club Plastic Shells"
Do I need a shotshell checker?
How do you convert Drams to Grains?

thanks,
Allen

[buckhunter]

Not 100% sure but believe they are not one piece hulls like the STS and Winchester AA's. They are 2 piece hulls they use on bargin priced shells.

Drams are like volume in Black Powder. I don't know you would convert it. Not sure what loader you are using but the MEC systems uses different bushings for different grains. Take a look at the Hercules loading manual.

[dovehunter]

All the Remington shotshell casings that I have encountered in recent years have the monolithic plastic body and base wad. I have not noticed any difference in the interior volume or appearance on any of them. They don't appear to be any different on the inside than STS hulls that I have used so I load them all the same. I have shot hundreds of them using the same loads prescribed for the STS hulls and have never had any problem. I would not, however, do this with any hulls having a fiber base wad but, as I said, I haven't seen any of these in years. If memory serves me, I believe the Lyman shotshell manual has a section on shotshell hull identification.

Regarding the drams vs. grains relationship, there is no direct relationship. Don't worry about it. The dram equivalent is of no use to reloaders anyway. Some of the shotshell reloading manuals I have seen will show this along with the actual loading data but it is only offered as a ballpark guide to the velocities one might expect to get using a comparable blackpowder load.

[skeet]

Skinny... I don't actually remember the exact figure but a 3 dram load of FFg Black weighs approx 76 grains. That is what I used to load in a few "wake up the dead shells" at the gun club. I actually shot them at skeet targets and they worked just fine. I do remember the load was in a Federal paper case with a SAC wad(Sullivan Arms Co...ergo SAC)which was a plastic overpowder wad with a card and filler wad then 1 1/8 oz of shot. When the shell says a 3 dram equivalent it means that the velocity is approx 1200 ft per second with 1 1/8 oz of shot. Pressures are not equivalent to black powder. Much higher. I even loaded some 20 ga with FFg in a 2 1/2 dr load and they worked just fine too. If you do want to load black in a newer type shell try to find one with a low basewad..preferably paper and straight sided case. You can (and I have) load pyrodex in 12 and even 20 ga shells. I even have a load for my 44 spec shells with pyrodex. Pyrodex is loaded on a volume to volume basis with Black Powder. It weighs approx 80% of what black powder weighs.. So use volume to load Pyrodex. BTW if they haven't changed 'em the green and black shells are the same basic case. They load better if they have 8 star crimps.. the hulls are skivved at the crimp end 6 stars suck.. and usually aren't skivved. Oh and the size of pyrodex to use is either RS or Ctg. FFg in Black powder. FFFg is useable but cut the load by a couple of grains..just for grins. And cold weather does affect pyrodex a bit..so..well you know.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Are the Remington green Sport Loads and the black Game Loads the same hulls?

Yes

Do they fit under this category from the Hodgdon Manual? "Remington STS, or Nitro 27, or Gun Club Plastic Shells"

again,yes

Do I need a shotshell checker?

I don't know....I've never heard of 'shotshell checker'. However, I have been reloading for 30+ years and have never found the need for one, whatever it is

How do you convert Drams to Grains?

As previously stated, it can't be done. Drams is a measure of volume, not weight, and is a hold over from black powder times. However, if you wish to duplicate a particular load, you can use the Dram equivelent & payload (# of ounces of shot) to give you a velocity, and can then use that information to find a given charge weight of a particular powder to approximate that velocity. For example, if the box is labeled "3 3/4 dram eq, 1 1/4 oz shot", that load is roughly equal to a muzzle velocity of 1330 fps. Knowing that, you can look up the loading tables for 1 1/4 oz shot and find a powder charge that will give you 1330 fps, and you have basically duplicated the 3 3/4 drams of BP that it would take to get you that velocity.
Have I muddied the waters yet?

[Larryjk]

Skinny Shooter, The weights and measures table in Daniel Webster Collegiate Dictionary says a dram is equal to 27.343 grains. That multiplies out in my book at 82.029 grains for a 3 dram load. The guys at Hodgdon once told me to use about 80 grains of double F in a 12 gauge load. That sounds reasonable. Mr. 16 Gauge, drams are not listed in the volume tables, only weight.

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by Larryjk

Skinny Shooter, The weights and measures table in Daniel Webster Collegiate Dictionary says a dram is equal to 27.343 grains. That multiplies out in my book at 82.029 grains for a 3 dram load. The guys at Hodgdon once told me to use about 80 grains of double F in a 12 gauge load. That sounds reasonable. Mr. 16 Gauge, drams are not listed in the volume tables, only weight.

82 grains of any powder on one of those shells is about the equivalent of a bomb.

For a 1 1/8 oz. load at 1,200 fps I use 19.2 grains of Hogdon Clays in the Nitro hull, which is the same as the STS hull. 82 grains could possibly blow the gun up and I don't even think it would be possible to crimp that shell closed with that much powder and shot in it.

[skeet]

I was off on the amount of black powder in the 3 dram load. I used 76 grains of FFg. It fit in a AA shell just fine. The dupont powder guy told me that about 83 gr was 3 dr equivalent but that was with card wads. With a plastic overpowder he said to cut the load back a few grains because of the better gas seal. So I used 76 grains. And yes Fabs..80 somethig grains of SMOKELESS powder in your load, if you could fit it in, would blow the gun. It would not be pretty.

[Skinny Shooter]

Thanks for all the info.
Can't figure out why Drams is even used anymore when smokeless is being used.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Mr. 16 Gauge, drams are not listed in the volume tables, only weight.

Hmmm.....that's interesting. I have some liquid measuring cups from when I did my chemistry classes in college; they say 'drams' on the side. Go figure!

[skeet]

Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge

Hmmm.....that's interesting. I have some liquid measuring cups from when I did my chemistry classes in college; they say 'drams' on the side. Go figure!

Remember in Chemistry..liquids are sometimes much different than dry measure.

Skinny as someone said the drams equivalent is a velocity comparison. Browning made(marketed) shotshell ammo for a short time in the US and tried to change the relationship to drams. Didn't work. I will try to find my old texts on black powder measures. But I distinctly remember 3 drams as being approx 76 grains of black powder(FFg) by weight. They loaded black powder shotshells by volume..drams which is a volume measurement. Then when they loaded the shells with say an ounce and an eighth of shot..the velocity came out to approx 1200 ft per second. So when they load say... Red Dot at approx 18 gr with an ounce and an eighth to get 1200 ft per second it was equivlalent to 3 drams of black powder in velocity. Just wwwaaaayyyy more energy in smokeless powder per grain. I have some bulk smokeless powder for shotshells and it is loaded to the same volume as black powder. Pyrodex is loaded to the same Volume as black powder and it delivers approx the same velocities.

And yep..you are right.. Doesn't seem to make much sense to us nowday. But it did when they changed over from Black to Smokeless. You do know we shooters do NOT like CHANGE

[Larryjk]

When I was looking for information on loading black powder loads for use in a twist barrel double in very good shape (12 gauge), the guys at Hodgdon told me to use about 80 grains of FFg in a AA case with a standard 209 primer, the Winchester white wad for 1 1/8 oz of shot, drop 1 1/8 oz. of shot and crimp it. It did work fine.

[Larryjk]

Mr. 16 Gauge, You are right and I apologize. I was mixing a small batch of Acra-glas to repair a stock and there it was; drams to ounces. Drams are a measure of weight and Fluidrams are a measure of volume of fluids. One fluidounce is equal to 8 fluidrams. That relationship is shown on the "Itty-Bitty" cups I use for meeasuring small batches of
Acra-glas, and also on the larger medicine cups used for larger batches. I am usually working in cc's or ml's and missed the other units that are listed. buckhunter and dovehunter, the apology also goes to you fellows.