Military Arms and Condition thereof!

[Adam Helmer]

Life would be much simpler for us collectors IF sellers of military arms advertised in the weekly papers knew what they had and complied with generally accepted NRA Condition Adjectives of "Perfect, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair, and Poor." Whenever I see an interesting ad, I call the poster and inquire numerous details from the prospective seller. Rest assured the responses will not NECESSARILY be true!

Case in point: Yesterday, I read an ad for "a Model 1880 Trapdoor Springfield .45/70 Rifle in near Excellent condition with Ramrod Bayonet for $650.00." WOW! Only 1,014 Model 1880 Springfields were field tested in March 1881 and were returned to Springfield Armory after field testing by troops. I called the rifle's owner and asked about the TRIANGULAR bayonet with 11 grooves on both flats, etc., and he told me "Yep, they are here."

Today, I drove 80 miles round trip to find out he had a Model 1884 Springfield with a ROUND ramrod bayonet! The owner lamely stated, "I guess this is not a Model 1880 Springfield." I advised him that the name carved in the left side of the buttstock that was (mostly) gouged out in a dish-shaped hollow the size of a cake of soap and the two stock screw holes behind the hammer of a prior tang sight rendered the piece to "NRA GOOD" at best! I told him he had a shooter at BEST!

I wished him a good day and left.

Adam

[Gil Martin]

Not everyone is aware of the NRA terms regarding the condition of used firearms. As we all know, the term "good" may not be all that good. All the best...
Gil

[skeet]

Caveat Emptor.. maybe it should be reader and listener beware. Actually Adam..just because you know doesn't mean others do..as Gil said. I always take what people say with a pound of salt..especially since they don't really know what they have.. most of the time. Went to look at a BSA 30-06 the other day. It was a Mauser in 8mm. Yep the price was low alright...just not low enough

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I asked the seller to read everything on the rifle over the phone. He said, "yep, it says Model 1880." Next day the receiver said "Model 1884." He said the bayonet was "triangular and it ended up being ROUND! I asked the proper questions. I suspect the seller thought he had an easy mark. Also, I think he wanted to move this white elephant. He still has it. I asked the right questions and got lies in return.

Adam

[skeet]

Listener beware. And there is another thing that I truly believe ..if it seems too good to be true..It usually is. How many of the 1880s do you think still exist?? Especially in original condition? And to find one near the ol homestead..Nah..don't happen very often..and I don't believe it till I see it. To complain is our prerogative after the fact though, isn't it?? I truly believe people really don't know or care for the most part when they sell something. Long as the money comes in and the piece of crap they have goes out!! Course I never made a mistake either 'cept that one time.... I've bought and sold many an antique that people thought was just a piece of junk.and left quite a few things people thought were owned by ol Napoleon Bonaparte hisself. Just part of buying and selling.... guns and other junk. Only thing I wish I had bought (for 300bucks) was a Cavalry Saber owned by ol Light Horse Harry Lee. Even had provenance with a letter written by R.E. Lee..dumb, dumb, dumb Really did seem too good to be true. A friend of mine did buy it. Scum still has it too. He's willed it to me..been thinkin about Vinnie...from Philly..using his services. If it don't cost too much

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Ah, yes....but don't forget: sometimes guys stumble on bargains where the folks really don't know what they have, or let it go at an overly reasonable price "just to get rid of it"......

....guess what I'm trying to say is that, in the end, it probably all evens out.

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I DID NOT buy the rifle. I DID ask the RIGHT questions and got lies in reply BEFORE I drove 80 miles round trip. I think you missed my points. I did all the right things beforehand. If a prospective seller lied, then that IS the real world. It has happened before and will happen again. What else could a guy DO besides asking questions SPECIFIC to an arm? I have found some real gems. This guy was a wheeler dealer who lied on the telephone in order to move a junker. Just like a used car salesman, this fellow thought he was talking to a hick.

I worked fraud for 26 years, so I know what questions to ask. People lied to me then and occasionally now. I am not complaining, I am merely alerting folks to the "lulling ads" scheming folks put in the newspapers. This turkey stated the M1880 was "near Excellent." It was a "come on" ad I made him squirm when we met!

About 30% of the ads I respond to are like this one. The other 70% result in very collectable items. I ask many questions BEFORE I drive over too see the items and have their written responses in hand to refute their MISREPRESENTATIONS. I understand Caveaut Emptor.

Adam

[skeet]

Don't think you got mine. Best way to put it is Just part of the cost of doing what we do..Saw a guy at a gun show lyin like that about a 94 Win that had been refinished at least twice.. I told the people that were lookin at the POS that there was a guy 2 tables over with a much better rifle for less money. The lyin scum suckin pig was sure POd at me..told him it was his lies that got him where he was.. You are right..there are some people who don't know what they are buying..there are some who will take advantage of people like that.. And then there are those like 16 ga said..that don't know what they are selling. Will you speak up and tell people that what they have is worth much more than they are asking?? Not dissing you ..just pointing out that there are those kinds of people everywhere..Luckily NOT too many here in Wyoming..

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

At the big gun show last March I had an incident like your gun show one. A guy had 5 FN M49 ABL rifles laying on the table. I was looking at one when a woman (who knew the gun owner) stopped at his table and said hello. She then aksed him, "Which is the one you finally cobbled together?" The seller "froze" and I put down the ABL and walked on.

I only buy parts and ammo at gun shows. The vendors are transients I see every March and would not buy a gun from them.

Adam

[skeet]

With your somewhat inflexible attitude toward transients selling at gun shows..you probably miss a few good buys. Not all are crooked... But of course..some are a little more honest than others. Most however are honest guys trying to make a living. Some are just trying to get rid of stuff they don't need or want..or as in my case..I go do the gun shows for the fun of it. I also get to make a few good buys here and there....and sell some of my unneeded yard sale acquisitions. With your knowledge of guns etc you shouldn't get the worst side of any deal..

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I don't "get the worst side of any deal" because I insist on a 5-day return privilage. As you well know, things may not be as they appear. If a seller says "no returns", I walk. Be well.

Adam