91 yr old war criminal arrested

skeeter@ccia.com · #1 05-15-2011, 05:54 AM

I don't know how I feel about this news item. Seems back in WWII there was a young soldier that happened to be born in the wrong Country. They put him to work as a guard at (sad) jewish camp. I am sure he could of just as well been made a guard at some military base or sent to the trenches..But is was his job....now the years have passed and he had good job in an Auto plant. Retired, etc..but someone found out what he had to do during the war. They arrested this 91 yr old man for war crimes. I don't know how I feel about that. Sure it is sad what they did back then but come on, 91? Give him 5 years prison. Life to me.. We on the other hand have criminals in our Gov now, wall st etc..some of these might not have pulled the triggers but did in fact cause a few to do so when they lost everything..jobs, money, homes, family..and now they have their millions and are still free..I am sure this 91 yr old has had time to think of what they were doing and has talked to God about it... I just dont think at his age, arrest isn't the cure. What do you all think?

Dan Morris · #2 05-15-2011, 07:14 AM

Gonna raise a rant, but I do not see that a lockup at 91 will serve any useful point. Guy has lived with this all his life.
Dan

Seawolf1090 · #3 05-15-2011, 09:49 AM

Some just will not let history be consigned to the history books. They insist on reliving it. The Germans have become hyper-sensitive over the Nazi issue. I deplore the depredations of that regime too, but this guy was a very small cog in that machine. One of Germany's post-war leaders, Kurt Waldheim, was a Nazi - other than being 'persona non-grata' regarding coming to the US, he got along well......

Mr. 16 gauge · #4 05-15-2011, 10:17 AM

Sorry, but I disagree with most of the posts here.

This story originally broke years ago, as the man in question (Demanjuk (sp?)) lived in the town right next to me ....literally. He is not accused of 'just being a guard'....he is accused of crimes against humanity, including torture and MURDER!!! Lasts time I heard, there was no statute of limitations on murder.
...and, if it was YOUR family members who were murdered, wouldn't you want justice for their killer(s)? Would you let them get away with it, just because they were 'old', or 'just in the wrong place at the wrong time'? I don't buy into the idea that they "had to do it, or else they would face the same treatment"....there were plenty of guards in camps that weren't sadists and murders. Just because this individual managed to hide it so well for all these years doesn't mean he should get a free pass.

Small cog in the machine? Maybe so, but that 'small cog' kept all the big cogs moving....

It's unfortunate that the U.S. must share the blame in some of this.....look into Japan's unit 731 in Manchuria and see the atrocities that they committed in the name of 'scientific research' (if you can stomach it....I work in an O.R. and after seeing/reading some of the things these animals did, I thought I was going to barf.....I had to quit reading half way through). Not only did they commit their atrocities on (primarily) Chinese citizens, but American POWs as well....and our country gave them a 'free pass' in order to get a look at the 'data' because of the cold war. Many of these sadists (er....excuse me, researchers) went on to become prominent politicians, presidents of Universities, heads of industry, ect.....and NONE of them EVER admitted to their crimes. And Japan, as a nation, has never acknowledged the fact that Unit 731 ever existed.
Should we just give them a free pass? After all, they are all old as well.....

Oh, and by the way: Unit 731 also experimented with "balloon bombs" to try and spread biological and chemical weapons over the United States. Little know fact: about 200 of these bombs reached the U.S., and one killed 7 people, including a woman who was 8 months pregnant.
....but let's just give them a free pass; after all, the war was over 60 years ago, and these were just civilians that they made war on....

I've seen other posts on here with re: to crime, criminals 'getting away with murder' because of legal issues filed by the ACLU, ect. You guys get pretty pissed off when you feel that justice is stymied. Yet here you are, doing the same thing because the guy is "old" and "the war was a long time ago".

The smell of hypocrisy is rather rank today....................

fabsroman · #5 05-23-2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge

Sorry, but I disagree with most of the posts here.

This story originally broke years ago, as the man in question (Demanjuk (sp?)) lived in the town right next to me ....literally. He is not accused of 'just being a guard'....he is accused of crimes against humanity, including torture and MURDER!!! Lasts time I heard, there was no statute of limitations on murder.
...and, if it was YOUR family members who were murdered, wouldn't you want justice for their killer(s)? Would you let them get away with it, just because they were 'old', or 'just in the wrong place at the wrong time'? I don't buy into the idea that they "had to do it, or else they would face the same treatment"....there were plenty of guards in camps that weren't sadists and murders. Just because this individual managed to hide it so well for all these years doesn't mean he should get a free pass.

Small cog in the machine? Maybe so, but that 'small cog' kept all the big cogs moving....

It's unfortunate that the U.S. must share the blame in some of this.....look into Japan's unit 731 in Manchuria and see the atrocities that they committed in the name of 'scientific research' (if you can stomach it....I work in an O.R. and after seeing/reading some of the things these animals did, I thought I was going to barf.....I had to quit reading half way through). Not only did they commit their atrocities on (primarily) Chinese citizens, but American POWs as well....and our country gave them a 'free pass' in order to get a look at the 'data' because of the cold war. Many of these sadists (er....excuse me, researchers) went on to become prominent politicians, presidents of Universities, heads of industry, ect.....and NONE of them EVER admitted to their crimes. And Japan, as a nation, has never acknowledged the fact that Unit 731 ever existed.
Should we just give them a free pass? After all, they are all old as well.....

Oh, and by the way: Unit 731 also experimented with "balloon bombs" to try and spread biological and chemical weapons over the United States. Little know fact: about 200 of these bombs reached the U.S., and one killed 7 people, including a woman who was 8 months pregnant.
....but let's just give them a free pass; after all, the war was over 60 years ago, and these were just civilians that they made war on....

I've seen other posts on here with re: to crime, criminals 'getting away with murder' because of legal issues filed by the ACLU, ect. You guys get pretty pissed off when you feel that justice is stymied. Yet here you are, doing the same thing because the guy is "old" and "the war was a long time ago".

The smell of hypocrisy is rather rank today....................

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Ever stop to think that we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan and killed thousands of civilians? That sounds like a war crime to me. How about the fire bombing of Dresden? That one sounds like an atrocity to me too. People will argue that it was done to completely demoralize the Germans, but IMO the war was already over and it wasn't needed.

Didn't we round up Japanese civilians and put them behind fences. Granted, nothing like the German camps or the way the Japanese treated POWs.

Then, you have to keep in mind that the history of wars is usually written by the victors.

Got into it on another chatboard with a Canadian that felt Canada did more in WWII than the US. I guess that is how a Canadian would view it through Canadian eyes.

Finally, I do think the guy was a small cog in a really big machine. If a soldier is given an order to kill civilians, or even torture them, what is that soldier to do. Just look at the US and waterboarding. Let's not even get into the crap that happens at Guantanomo. Not that I completely disagree with it, but just because we might have to court martial a lot more Americans and send the President to prison too.

We happen to be the "good guys" in WWII because we won.

skeet · #6 05-23-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabsroman

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Ever stop to think that we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan and killed thousands of civilians? That sounds like a war crime to me. How about the fire bombing of Dresden? That one sounds like an atrocity to me too. People will argue that it was done to completely demoralize the Germans, but IMO the war was already over and it wasn't needed.

Didn't we round up Japanese civilians and put them behind fences. Granted, nothing like the German camps or the way the Japanese treated POWs.

Then, you have to keep in mind that the history of wars is usually written by the victors.

Got into it on another chatboard with a Canadian that felt Canada did more in WWII than the US. I guess that is how a Canadian would view it through Canadian eyes.

Finally, I do think the guy was a small cog in a really big machine. If a soldier is given an order to kill civilians, or even torture them, what is that soldier to do. Just look at the US and waterboarding. Let's not even get into the crap that happens at Guantanomo. Not that I completely disagree with it, but just because we might have to court martial a lot more Americans and send the President to prison too.

We happen to be the "good guys" in WWII because we won.

Fabs you happen to be right about one or two things in all that stuff you posted.. But think of this.. Yep..the victors in a war write the history..or it used to be that way. It is no longer. We dropped bombs in Japan. We killed civilians. Didn't we kill civlilians with the normal bombs? Didn't the Japanese kill civilians? War my friend is not won by the "good guys". It is won by the nastiest SOBS. Seriously How many civilians and military men would have died had we invaded Japan. I submit it would have been more..much more..maybe as many as a million as the Japanese were ready to defend the homeland to the death...men women and children. We could have bombed Tokyo..cut the head off the snake but we didn't do that. It would have killed hundreds of thousands more..and I think you know it. We(meaning the US) did not make the decision to bomb Dresden..which was filled to overflowing with refugees. The Brits wanted that to be done and they got their way. The war was almost over...but many many more people would have died had we done less. Look at the Russians. We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews). The Russians killed 20 millions. BUT think of the Rape of Nanking..the Bataan Death march and many other atrocities at the hands of the japanese...especially in China. In Europe the Geneva Convention supposedly reigned...but not with the Japanese. They were not signatories. Now as to waterboarding..it seems it got Bin Hiding. I'm sorry the only way to win a war is to be meaner than the other guy. If that offends your sensibilities..so be it. I am not sorry for that. I'm just glad that you and I have the right to say what we think. That right was given to you and me by ...yep..the meanest SOBS on the block. For that I am happy and will not apologize...and I am sad to think that you will.

Joe Boleo · #7 05-15-2011, 09:45 AM

I wonder when the Soviets will put their soldiers on trial for the war crimes they committed in Eastern Europe during and after WWII. Looks like the victors write the history and the rules. There are a lot of war criminals on the winning side that will never be tried.

The 91 year old former camp guard was at the bottom of the food chain. He did what he was told or he would have been in the camp he was guarding. Take care...
Joe

skeet · #8 05-15-2011, 01:57 PM

2 thumbs up to Mr 16. I have to agree with him.. murder is murder. If they were doing these things because they wanted to... then Adobe wall 'em. We should do the same to some of our politicians that do thing to us instead of for us

Adam Helmer · #9 05-15-2011, 04:35 PM

skeeter,

There was a program on TV last week about this individual. Several people stated the WWII ID card on this guy was a Soviet forgery. It was stated this guy was a Cold War victim of Soviet disinformation eagerly pursued by the U.S.

If the program comes to a station near you, view it and draw your own conclusions.

Adam

skeet · #10 05-15-2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

skeeter,

There was a program on TV last week about this individual. Several people stated the WWII ID card on this guy was a Soviet forgery. It was stated this guy was a Cold War victim of Soviet disinformation eagerly pursued by the U.S.

If the program comes to a station near you, view it and draw your own conclusions.

Adam

A forgery?? You mean like Nobama's Birth Certicate?? LOL!!

I've seen that program..Why would the Ruskies make him a fake ID card. Never explained that one fully..

Jack · #11 05-24-2011, 08:28 AM

A couple of factual corrections. . .
" We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews)"
The actual total of people killed in the Holocaust is a little difficult to pin down. Most experts put the figure at around 13 million. Six million of them were Jews. The rest were political opponents of Hitler, people the 3rd Reich considered 'mentally defective', Communists, clergy, homosexuals, Gypsys, Russian POW's, etc.
Also, we did bomb Tokyo during the latter stages of WW2- quite extensively. Just not with nukes. The firebombing campaign burned out about 3/4 of Tokyo, and the total casualties from all the Tokyo bombing raids are thought to be higher than either of the A bombs dropped. Again, exact numbers are a bit difficult to come by.

popplecop · #12 05-24-2011, 03:18 PM

Can you imagine what the loss of our servicmen would have been had we made an invasion of the Japense homeland? This alone justifies what we did for me.

8X56MS · #13 05-25-2011, 12:11 AM

saying what we should, or should not have done back in WW II is meaningless.

There was a bad war, our survival was at stake. Technology of the time did not allow for precision bombing and limited 'collateral damage'. Lots of people were killed.

Germany and Japan started the war, and their reasons were not benign or kindly. They were both brutal regimes, that cared as little for their own people as they did for the millions they murdered.

If some of that came back and bit them, so be it.

I have followed the John Demmanjuk issue for many years. I am on the side of those that say 'he did it', and should be punished. That he is old, just means he got away with his crimes for most of his life. He gets no sympathy from me.

fabsroman · #14 05-25-2011, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popplecop

Can you imagine what the loss of our servicmen would have been had we made an invasion of the Japense homeland? This alone justifies what we did for me.

The question would be whether the Japanese think it was a war crime to drop 2 atomic bombs on them, killing thousands of civilians in the process. It doesn't matter what you and I think was justified, even though I agree with you.

Personally, I think all this war crimes stuff is straight up BS. Seriously, we have rules pertaining to war when nations have nuclear missiles, machine guns, tanks, etc. It is against the rules of war to use hollow points, but if you shoot somebody with a tank round that is fine, or better yet run them over with a tank. Killing prisoners is also against the "rules", as is torture, etc. Well, if a country doesn't want to take prisoners, just issue an order to shoot them all during the "battle".

Ultimately, it just sucks to be on the losing side and it is nice to be on the winning side. You don't have to worry too much about who is going to be charged with war crimes when you are the victor.

fabsroman · #15 05-25-2011, 12:25 AM

Alright, so I went and read the initial paragraphs of Wiki for this guy. He has been tried in Israel, the US, and finally found guilty when he was tried in Germany just recently. The man is in a wheelchair and a nursing home. Does it really matter at this point? Maybe for politics sake. The man has been involved in criminal proceedings against him since the 80's. Freaking incredible. Then, he is found guilty of being an accessory to murder for 27,900 people because he was a guard at the camp and he is sentenced to 5 years in prison. They must be pretty lenient in Germany on murderers because an accessory to 27,900 murders in the US would get a lot stiffer sentence than 5 years.

I think this is a bunch of political BS at this point just to make the rest of you feel good about something.

Then again, probably none of us posting on here really know exactly what is going on because we weren't present at any of the trials. I would love to know how they found enough evidence in Germany to convict him. Guess I am going to have to read some more of the Wiki.