5 OUT of 6 Dead!!!!!!

[fabsroman]

TD,

I like that quote. Would you mind if I use it in my next newsletter.

"The lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part." I can apply that to a lot of my clients.

Wolvie,

Health care for dogs is expensive, but nowhere as expensive as health care for humans. Do I consider a dog's life more important than a human's, depends on the dog and the person involved. Nitro's life would not be more important than my wife's, children's, parents, or siblings. If a vet told me that I could extend Nitro's life for a year for $100,000, I definitely wouldn't do it. Heck, I couldn't do it. Exactly where the line is between can and cannot and could but would not, I have no idea.

Health insurance is now offered for pets, just like it is for humans. However, the health insurance, like the medical procedures, is a lot less expensive. Last I checked, health insurance coverage for humans at the firm I worked at was $3,600 for a single person, $7,000 for a married couple, and $13,000 for a family. That was 4 years ago. I found my own for $2,400, but it ended up being $3,000 by the time I got married and went on my wife's plan.

How much does a C-section for a human cost? I am willing to bet it is a whole bunch more than a C-section for a dog.

At the end of the day, we are condemning a bunch of vets and we don't even know their circumstances.

What kills me is that everybody thinks they are entitled to health care, kind of like people thinking they are entitled to a nice car, a nice home, a nice vacation home, etc. Health care is not a right. Just like you have to earn all the above material items, you have to earn health care too. My grandfather was diagnosed with a heart condition before I was born and he could have lived if he had received treatment. Problem was that he didn't have any health insurance. Instead of selling everything the family owned, he went back to Italy to die. I just visited his grave for the first time 4 1/2 years ago. We are not entitled to the bext health care just because we are alive. If you want state of the art health care, you have to pay state of the art prices. Kind of like buying a state of the art car. There is a huge difference between a Ford Focus and a Ford GT40, both in price and technology.

I took Nitro to the emergency vet the other month, and it cost me close to $300. I don't usually like to part with $300, but that night I was fine with it because at 10:00 on a Sunday night I was able to find somebody to sedate him, stop his bleeding, and remove the cyst. Would vets stay open 24 hours a day if they didn't get this kind of money. I know I wouldn't want to be the one working the graveyard shift. Also, how many emergencies are there really? I was the only person in the waiting room that night, with the exception of another person that came in about 45 minutes later when I was loading Nitro in the truck. Essentially, my $300 had to pay for 45 minutes worth of the receptionist, the vet, the tech, the lights, and the rent and it also had to cover the sedative, the gauze, etc. In the end, it was money well spent because the bleeding stopped.

If we want premium services, we have to pay premium prices. Is a plumber going to come out to your place to fix your leak for the same price at 6:00 on Super Bowl Sunday as he would on Monday morning? I don't think so.

Yes, vets take an oath, but it isn't one of poverty, and I completely agree with TD about a lot of people promising to pay but not paying. Heck, that is why I require a retainer from most of my clients. Every once in a while, I make a mistake and misjudge somebody and then I have to worry about collecting my money. It almost makes me want to require retainers from everybody. I am sure plenty of people have decided not to retain my services because I require payment upfront, but so be it.

Now, if a vet isn;t busy, then he probably would take the patient if there is enough money up front to cover his costs with a payment plan for the remainder, but that is only if he isn't busy taking care of other animals. Same thing goes for me. Why would I take a bunch of pro bono cases when I can barely get enough sleep handling my paying clients. Why would the pro bono case be any more important than my paying clients?

[Wolvie]

I guess that its just me,...
But I pray that no one else has to endure such a pain.

I had money upfront,..almost more than half,and the vet wasn`t busy,...as for most I called some were finishing up with their last patient.
I know ,.I asked if they were too busy for me to bring LucyJean to them.
And the first thing they said was "Well sir we need at least",..........
Not if they were or weren`t,....just how much it would cost.

I again guess you would have had to be here,.and spoke to them or heard what I did.
As for being prepared (again),...I am as prepared for my pets as i am for my childern,....
But S_ _ T Happens,..S_ _ T that we all sometimes are not prepared for.

Would u be ready tomorrow if you and some buddies went out afield with your dogs,..and sometime into the hunt,..let`s say 2 out of 3 dogs got SHOT by acident,...now you gotta drive 50 miles to the closes vet,....are you prepared to lose your hunting buddy(The Dog),...every minute counts now,...he`s dying,....you still have 20 miles to go,...and you are just sure he or you are going to make it,...it`s 6pm,...damn,......I forgot my wallet,...got my huntin liecense,..but no wallet,...no money,........nothing!!!!

You arrive at the vets,...he is about to leave,...but the doors are still open (not locked),...He sees your pet bleeding,..he knows your pet is really in need of attention,...
Then he says to you,..."I`ll need $500.00 upfront to perform the surgery to save your pet"!

Delema HUH?!!!
Now u ask him to allow you to bring the money to him when he is done with your pet,...He says " I am sorry I can`t do that". " I will need the $500.00 upfront".

DELEMA #2,..wait DELEMA #3,...you still gotta deal with the kids that help you feed ,walk,and love that pet!!!!!

I`ll leave ya with that mental thought,....
and I guarantee,......NONE OF US are prepared for that,...
Unless ya got ESP and know what you and your pets future hold!

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

[fabsroman]

Wolvie,

Nobody is prepared for everything that life can throw at us. For instance, I am not prepared for a meteor to hit my house tonight, but you can bet that there would be certain things I would do if I didn't die. I have home owner's insurance, and I would hope that the policy covered the damage. Likewise, my wife and I have health insurance, so if we get hurt that would cover us also. The dog would be SOL. We would end up living at my parent's house for a while. Luckily, I have a backup copy of all my files at my parents and they have a computer too, so if I'm not too hurt I could still continue to work. My paper files would be gone, but as long as I have a client list, my financial file, and the documents file, I'll be good to go. Luckily, I don't keep all my life savings in the matress, so I could get some money out of the bank. Now, the birth certificates and such are in the fire proof gun safe on the bottom floor, so hopefully that didn't go up in smoke.

Regarding your scenario, a lot of things would have to go wrong for 2 out of 3 of my dogs to get shot while out hunting because that would mean that somebody was intentionally shooting them or somebody was completely careless. However, I do carry dog and human first aid kits with me in the truck and I usually have my wallet with me. However, if I forgot my wallet, I usually have my cell phone with me. If I am hunting with my dad, which I usually do, he would usually have his wallet on him. Then again, I usually carry some cash on me too. The cash is on a money clip and the wallet has my credit cards and ID. Every morning, before I leave the house, I make sure I have 5 things in my pockets. The left pocket gets the Trident sugar free gum and the Blistex spf15 lip balm and the right pocket gets my money clip, wallet, and cell phone. The car keys go in the left hand coat pocket and the house keys go in the right hand coat pocket. If I'm not wearing a coat, the car keys go in the left hand pants pocket and the house keys are carried out to the car and left in the glove box. I take precautions to avoid things just happening to me. I like to keep $10,000 at the minimum liquid just in case something does come up, and by liquid I mean in a savings/checking account and not in an investment account. My truck has 2 batteries in it too, but that was Ford's doing, I just made sure I got the option. Even if I did make it to the vet without any money or credit cards, I would offer him the truck and my guns as collateral until I could get my wife, mom, dad, brother, or sister to come to the vet with the money.

About the only way I would be really in trouble is if I got shot or if a meteor hit the truck while me, my dad, and the dog were getting in it, but then I don't think anybody could be prepared for that. Kind of like having a stroke, nobody can prepare for that except to make sure that they have all the proper documents in place (e.g., Power of Attorney, Advance Health Care Directive, and Last Will and Testament).

I guess I could be in some sort of trouble if the boat were to tip over in rough, cold water, but I still carry matches, a lighter, and all the other survival stuff in a waterproof box and I keep another set in my hunting bag sans flares and flare gun. While the boat is moving, we always wear life vests and the dog has a neoprene vest on too.

Come to think of it, when I took Nitro to the Emergency Vet, they never once asked for payment up front, they just expected it before we left.

I still like TD's quote, but I thought of a couple more.

If you fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Chance favors a prepared mind.

Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.

Don't get me wrong, stuff does happen, it is just a matter of how prepared you are when it does happen.

[TreeDoc]

To answer your question regarding your proposed "dilema," My duck club is 6 hours north of where I live. First, I have a plastic Stanley Tool Box that is exclusively full of First Aid items for my dog. It goes where we go and is never further than a few minutes walk or ATV ride away. I also have the name, number, and addresses of 3 different Vet Hospitals near where I hunt. Another club I hunt post that info on all of our property sheets. Though you won't see me do it here, I can recite to you the credit card number, code, and expiration. I'm covered on the bucks. The only thing I can't control is time which in the instance you cite is precious. I can only do my best in that department, I cannot control God's Will.

I think I am prepared about as best as one could be.

[Skyline]

OK, look....I guess I have not made myself clear on the vet pricing, nor my position on the canine companions.

My previous posts were trying to establish that the pet industry as a whole, vets included, know that we will pay a premium to save our 'best friend'. Sorry but the cost of buildings, training etc does not factor into the price gouging in many cases.

Given Wolvie's previous quote, which I believe was $1800 for vet help.......now I know there are variables......it's way too high for the average American or Canadian to afford to save their pet canine. Don't give me any of this garbage about factoring in the owning of a dog and my income......no one thinks about having to spend that much for a C section on a dog. Further more if you factored in that kind of a problem.......in most equations the average American or Canadian could only own a goldfish.

Sorry my friends........that is crap! Now I am not saying that Wolvie should not have had a better handle on his dog and the lack of knowledge about breeding taking place at the respective ages.........yes that is true. On the other hand he did try to pay to the best of his ability...........and personally paying $900 on help for a tiny dog like that seems like a genuine interest in the dogs well being.....probably could get more out of them!
Lack of payment is something we all have problems with in all kinds of industries and companies.........not a reason to fail to give medical attention.

If you told most American or Canadian families that they could not have a dog unless they could pay for several thousand dollars of vet bills for a relatively common problem.......many people and dogs would miss out on life long relationships. Kids couldn't have a dog...................don't throw up this crap about spaying and neutering.......we all know it should be done but many can't afford it because 'SOME' of the vets charge too much.

Why can I have a horse sedated and castrated for about a $150 but a cat costs $300 to spay. Why does a C section on a cow......where the vet drives out to the farm, gives the spinal block, performs surgery and has a vet assistant there to help lift the calf out, amd stitches the lady up with several shots of penecillin cost $350 but, an operation on a dog in trouble during birth cost $1500 or more?????

Ya know, when I got my old black lab 'Pepper' as a young man and avid bird hunter.........and then someone told me, well you really don't have a right to have that dog unless you can pay several thousands of dollars in vet bills, incase of an injury, I'd have told them to go to hell!

Give me a brake boys..........yes if you open a practice in Beverley Hills the cats will get the best and the owners can afford it. But, in average America or Canada the average dog and cat owner can just pay the bills and having a pet is a wonderful thing for them. To suggest that they are remis is not acceptable in most cases.

[TreeDoc]

Perhaps the answer you seek Skyline is quite simply a market driven equation. America and maybe Canada (I don't know) is infatuated with Cats and Dogs. Cats and Dogs do not live with a right to health care and in reality a Dog or Cat is truly a luxury possesion to most though I doubt they would see it that way. If a Vet determines that he needs "X" number of dollars to keep the deisel flowing through the injectors on his offshore fishing vessel or pay for his 30 horse heated barn, who are we to say that he can't charge his set price. Vote with your buck. I have found that there are cheaper Vet Services out there but I choose to stick with my guy because he is a hunter/fisherman and knows sporting dogs. I can rest assured that when my boy has a problem the Vet weighs all the options that are in Jack's best interest for his hunting career.

[Skyline]

TreeDoc......I am not seeking an answer....after 35 years of raising livestock and 'companion' animals that is what I have seen....over and over again.

You are right....dogs amd cats are a 'luxury item' for many.us and the costs are high. There is no difference between America and Canada (I don't know)......no difference at all.

I do not seek an answer......a market driven answer is excactly what I am talking about. Nothing miraculous to it.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

I bet this will sound a little better. How about feel free to own a pet, but be ready to lose that pet when it has a terrible illness unless you are willing to shell out thousands of dollars. If people could swallow that a little better, then maybe the vets wouldn't get to charge what they do. I went through it with that golden retriever. I had the choice to make. Hundreds to thousands of dollars on dialysis, or putting the dog down. The latter choice it was, but I didn't go screaming about how the vet was gouging me and how they are terrible people. If Wolvie really thought his dog was suffering and he wanted to end the suffering, it could be done for very cheap. When I was a kid, a friend of mine put their old and extremely sick German Shepard down by leaving it in the garage with the car running (carbon monoxide poisoning). I was horrified back then because I was only 8 years old, but nowadays that doesn't sound too bad.

I could start crying about how terrible builders are with their inflating the market here and making it so that I can barely afford a townhouse, much less a single family home. How dare they. Truth be told, it isn't the builders, but the sheeple that let the real estate agents and builders run the price up. If we ALL just sat back and said, enough is enough, this crap wouldn't happen, but it does because people succumb to emotions instead of logic. Salesmen prey on emotion, and that is why you have to be willing to walk away from any deal unless it suits you.

I cannot tell you how many people got 5/1 arms thinking they would be moving out from where they live before the new interest rate hit, but they are now stuck there and scared to death to see the new interest rate. How about the poor bastards that got interest only loans. Wait until those principal payments start to kick in in 5 to 8 years. The payment amounts will be much greater than the standard 30 year loan at that point. They wanted the big house, now they have to live with the consequences, but I guess we should be blaming the real estate agents, home builders, and mortgage brokers for twisting their arm.

Right now, I would say that I am prepared to spend $5,000 on Nitro for anything that would extend his life a year or more and give him a good quality of life. Anything more than that, and I would really have to sit down and think about it. In fact, after the emergency trip to the vet, I am seriously thinking about buying insurance.

I truly believe this is the land where you are allowed to choose from amongst a million things. What bugs me is when people decide on something and then cry when it doesn't turn out exactly the way they want it. We all want our cake and we want to eat it too.

I'm sorry, but I just deal with this too often with my clientele. How about the guy that wrecks his friend's motorcycle and then refuses to pay because his friend should have had insurance on the bike? What kind of excuse is that. Blame shifting is what really kills me. On the flip side, my brother wrecked his buddy's motorcycle and wrote his friend an $8,500 check as soon as he got out of the hospital.


Wolvie,

While I think you are partly to blame, I truly, and I mean truly, admire your honesty regarding the facts. Yeah, I think the vets were charging a little much, but if that is what the market will pay, I don't blame them. Likewise, you would want to get all the money you could when you are starting a new job and wouldn't accept anything less than what the market is paying.

Here is another quote, that if everybody adhered to, the world would be a much better place:

"Never lie, even if it means your death."

[huntingvet]

All,

I think this is a very healthy debate we are having. The common thread in all of our thoughts is that we hold our pets dear to our hearts and want the very best for them.

I practice in southern California where the "market" may be considerably different than othe areas of the country. Out here, a cesarean section during normal daytime/business hours, barring complications can be anywhere from $300-$2000. The end result of the $300 c-section may be identical to the $2000 c-section. The difference lies in the type of service you buy to get you there. For example, a c-section at my place will likely be $800-1200 because I believe x-rays, IV catheter with IV fluids, pain medication, appropriate monitoring during and after surgery, caring for the puppies as well as mom, and using the very best anesthestics is where my comfort level as a practicing veterinarian is. The guy down the road chargin $300 may be just as comfortable anesthestizing your pet with anesthestics that are much cheaper, making an incision, pulling out some puppies, and stitching things back together, then an hour later sending the whole "family" home to heal. There is no right or wrong way.

Care for the dog or cat is different than care for livestock. For example, calves are castrated with a head gate for restraint, the scalpel blade used on the prior 5-7 calves, a small incision and some twisting/pulling, maybe a screwworm bomb spray and a shot of penicillin for good measure. A dog castration at least entails general anesthesia, should include a sterile surgical pack used only on your dog, and I believe pain medication. It is an issue we refer to as standard of care. If a calf had a problem following a typical castration, the veterinarian wouldn't be liable for malpractice because he operated at "the standard of care." However if a veterinarian strapped you dog down to a table, hacked away without anesthesia or at least pain medication, used a used surgical instrument and that dog developed complications, I gaurantee that vet would lose his licence because he didn't perform at the minimum standards known as the "standard of care."

I think its important to realize that pet ownership is not a right. There are minimum standards that all pet owners are held to in our society. They include shelter, food, and minimal medical care (vaccines, treatment for pain/suffering).

Veterinarians don't charge what they do just to pay the rent, pay utilities, cover the cost of medication, pay their staff, etc. Believe it or not, they are in their career to make a living. They want to buy homes, raise families, give their children the best they can, etc. Price gouging aside, there is no crime in a veterinarian making a living.

Wolvie, again I sympathize for you and wish your experience would have been more positive. I wish you would have found a vet that would have gone out of his/her way to help you during your time of need. I understand why you feel you were abandoned by my profession but its important to not place ALL the blame on every vet. Perhaps the ones you talked with were less than ideal, but also, perhaps you share some blame too?

In the future, for all, if you run into situations where a dramatic decision needs to be made ASAP and major expenses are going to be incurred, most veterinary hospitals may have access to credit programs. Most of these are through outside lenders marketing through a veterinary hospital. I offer it. Not everyone gets approved though. My feeling, however, is if the crediting agency declines trusting you, on what basis can I?

[TreeDoc]

Excellent insight, huntingvet! It's great to be able to see this issue through the eyes of a practing DVM.

I have a question for you that's slightly off topic but runs parallel I think and is about Pet Insurance. I know there are a few underwriters of pet policies and was wondering if you accept or work with any insurance outfits. If so, is it a good idea? Are people left covering major expenses? Would love to hear some of your input if you have any.

Also, if you're willing to divulge, what area of SoCal are you in? I'm a native from north Orange County (La Habra) but have resided here on the Central Coast for over 20 years now after I came up to attend Cal Poly. I have numerous friends that were Pre-Vet here in the Animal Science Dept.

[huntingvet]

I practice in Chino Hills. Its near Diamond Bar/Pomona area. Not too far from La Habra.

Pet Insurance is like any insurance. Make sure you know what you are buying. I think overall they are a good value. Like other insurances, they just don't seem to cover enough, but I think they do help. There are many companies. Veterinary Pet Insurance (VPI) is one of the oldest and most popular companies. They are based in Brea, CA and as such have to meet CA's standards for insurance companies (whether that's good or bad??). They are partially owned by Iams/Eukanuba.

Veterinary insurance is a little different than human insurance. Most hospitals still charge you directly but help with the paperwork that you submit for reimbursement. Hope that helps.

[fabsroman]

TD,

The pet insurance issue is a great issue. I am half debating whether or not this thread should be moved to the "Hunting Dogs" forum or if it should stay here. Maybe we can start an insurance thread in hunting dogs. I think that is the route I am going to take.

[Skyline]

Hmmmmmmmm..................insurance. Another interesting thread and another slippery slope. As huntingvet said be careful of what you are actually getting.

I looked into getting insurance on a stud horse we had. He was valued at about $30,000 at the time and just mortality insurance was going to run me $1200 a year. To get decent coverage on all the registered breeding stock we had at that time would have been the price of a new Honda Civic every year.

Huntingvet is absolutely right in that vets are not just trying to recover costs, they actually want to make aliving as well. Fees though as with all things tend to go with what the local market will stand. If our local vets where I live charged $1200 for a C section on a dog they just wouldn't get any business and would soon be packing up and moving to greener pastures.

We have actually seen that happen............the country folk have their own ideas as to what is a reasonable fee and it was not the land of milk and honey for a couple of the vets that set up in the area briefly. They soon moved their practice to the outskirts of a big town where there were lots of acreage owners who own horses and have lots of disposable income.

Supply and demand...........same reason a guided bighorn hunt in Alberta costs $20,000 + US. It doesn't cost any more in expenses for the outfitter to run the sheep hunt than a $5000 goat hunt, but that is what the market will bear. There are hunters willing to pay the price and the outfitters don't really care if you can't afford that and consequently will never be able to go on that hunt.

[Wolvie]

Listen we arent talking about hunting dogs,...
We are talking about a 3 lb Chihuahua,..TACO dog,..

But move it where u shall,..it all comes down to who can and whom cant,....
I am to blame for my dogs problems,..I should have been better prepared,and now knowing what I do now,...I will be.

Knowing that the only thing that matters is the ALmighty $$$$$$$$.
We can debate,or point blame,..but what this thread is and was all about ,is simple,...
Vets taking advantage of a situation,..that they didnt have to,..but hey I understand that one bad apple kills the rest of the tree,....So lets just chop it down here,...

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

[TreeDoc]

Originally posted by huntingvet
I practice in Chino Hills. Its near Diamond Bar/Pomona area. Not too far from La Habra.

Pet Insurance is like any insurance. Make sure you know what you are buying. I think overall they are a good value. Like other insurances, they just don't seem to cover enough, but I think they do help. There are many companies. Veterinary Pet Insurance (VPI) is one of the oldest and most popular companies. They are based in Brea, CA and as such have to meet CA's standards for insurance companies (whether that's good or bad??). They are partially owned by Iams/Eukanuba.

Veterinary insurance is a little different than human insurance. Most hospitals still charge you directly but help with the paperwork that you submit for reimbursement. Hope that helps.

Chino Hills by name didn't exist back in my day but I know exactly where you're at....I grew up on the fairways of Western Hills Country Club in Chino (Carbon Canyon) back when there wasn't a house for miles in any direction! I assume the golf course is still there? Back then it was a private course but it seemed to me that I heard it was going public or something. I can only imagine that if it's there still, it's got lots of houses around it!

My brother held a spot at a duck club close by too, down behind Prado Dam next to Raahauge's facility which I'm sure is still there. Most of my kin are still down in that part of the world but I try to avoid that trip down there whenever possible!