Howcome ?

[Zazu45]

HI guys.

I bought an "Undertaker" coke tube for my Remington 870 Express the other day.
At the same time I got two boxes of Winchester Supremes 3in. mag. shells (STEEL SHOT), one with no2 and the other with BB.
Next I went to shoot a few patterns. As a reference I shot few with Winchester Super double XX 3in mag. 1 7/8 oz with BB.
Weird thing was that the lead BB gave 85 % ,Steel no.2 gave 50 % and steel BB gave 60 % .
Everybody said that steel shot would pettern tighter than lead , what happened ???
My "undertaker" is .700 constriction (model 08675) and the packaging states:"For shot size BB,BBB,& T shot.
My only guess is that I got a "modified equivalent" instead of a full choke equivalent.
Or am I simply using shot that is too small for that constriction since pattern % seems to go up with shot size ?
By the way, how do "T" size shot perform on geese ?
Still it is a shame since I was looking for something to use with 2 and BB.
Anyway any feed back appreciated.

Thanks. Denis

[skeet]

ZASU,

The 700 constriction choke you have is about a modified choke constriction. A full would be on the order of a .690 or so. Heck I have some chokes here with a .660 constriction. Lead shot only of course. Chokes are weird things. Every one is different in every gun. The XX loads were really engineered to give great patterns back when you could shoot waterfowl with them. Now with the Turkey shooters being a big thing they keep makin 'em better. Steel shot is a law unto itself also. You have to try to find the best choke with each different type of ammo sometimes..just like rifle shootin. As far as T shot...I used it extensively on waterfowl back in Md. Steel T shot killed geese with authority out to about 65-70 yds...especially using a 10 ga. In the 12 ga maybe not quite as well but still good. I used an improved modified for T in a 12 ga and the 10 ga also. Lead T shot was a real killer(but not really legal) if you had a gun that would shoot it. I messed with the bore of a S&W1000 Auto I got on trade till it shot great patterns with a reload of Lead T I developed. At 40 yds it shot 100% patterns..at 60 yds about 72%. I actually killed more than 1 goose at 90-100 yds. But I shot geese every day.... 250-300 a season. I got kinda good at shootin geese. As an aside on that gun. It wouldn't shoot BB's 2's or 4's worth a hoot(hardly ever found anything that shot 4's well). But with Lead T and Lead 5's it shot 100% at 40 yds. Go figure?! You'll have to keep lookin for another choke that you can use..and keep on trying patterns. BTW static patterns(still targets) won't show you much for flying birds..but will work really well for turkey shootin!

[fabsroman]

T steel shot is the best steel shot you can use on geese. I try to use T steel shot when I have to use steel shot on geese, but it isn't always available where I am and I only use steel shot when I do not have time to load Hevi-Shot.

[Zazu45]

Another weird thing I noticed. I know that you can't compare a wood board with a goose, but I noticed that shot of the same size gave the same penetration between lead and steel.
I'm sure it is related to the steel shot hardness but still I was expecting less penetration from steel due to their lighter weight.

Fabsroman, what kind of patterns do you get with the "T"shot and what kind of choke do you use.
"BBB"and/or "T" shot will probably be my next experiment in the "Undertaker"since it seems to favor bigger shot.
A good patterning heavy-duty combo is always handy to have around even if I should not need it too often.

About the static patterning thing, I know what you mean Skeet,
but a load that patterns good on paper is not always good in the field on moving targets. But a load that patterns poorly on paper, very rarely does good in the field.
Paper either for shotguns or rifles is always a good starting point even if does not tell the whole story.

[skeet]

Fabs is right about the Steel T being the best size to use on Geese. When guiding I mostly used the larger sizes. My job after I got the geese in range was to make sure any birds hit?crippled did not get away. Quite often they were getting out there a ways. That is why I used a 10 ga a fair amount. It threw the large shot better and more of 'em. Never modified the 10 ga bore much. Lengthened the forcing cone some and on a couple of the Ithaca 10's I did a Two step choke. Couldn't do that on the Remington 10 as the choke was too short..but I did get a couple of longer choke tubes I did a little work on for the Remmy. One I got shooting really good with BBB size. It was almost as good as T shot. Surprisingly... That choke shot good patterns out to about 60 yds then just seemed to give up the ghost. Never saw that happen with lead shot. The steel really sucks. That is why I use Hevi or Bismuth. I know it is expensive, as does Fabs, but we both agree Hevi shot is as good as or better than lead. Way way way better than steel. I also observed some things about steel that many don't. It really gets blown badly by the wind. I shot some patterns in a 30-40 MPH wind with BBB and it blew more than 2 ft from point of aim at 40 yds. In the gusts as much as 3 1/2 ft and the patterns really degraded badly too. Shooting steel in the wind is an almost futile exercise...unless shooting directly downwind. Steel also seems to be really inconsistent in patterns...so don't always believe what your eyes tell ya. If you can use lead for the turkeys. Or if not that then get some Hevi or one of the new loads using the same material from Federal or Winchester. Supposed to be better than Hevi-shot

[fabsroman]

Zazu,

I use a Patternmaster choke tube nowadays, but I haven't actually patterned that tube with T's. I patterned it with #4 Hevi and #2 steel and the Hevi shot a lot tighter than the steel. I was shooting at an 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper from 30 yards and almost every pellet from the Hevi was on the paper and the middle was toast, but the steel was all over the place and I really doubt that every pellet was on the paper because there were a lot on the fringe. Personally, I prefer Hevi #2 for geese and Hevi #B for the really long shots. My best patterns with steel were out of the standard modified choke that came with the Benelli SBE.

If I can, I'll try to pattern some T shot for you out of the Patternmaster. Thing is, I don't normally pattern my guns unless I leave the field or range scratching my head wondering why I missed a shot. That is what lead to the patterning of the #2 steel. I missed or wounded three ducks one morning that I definitely thought I should have killed, so I patterned the Patternmaster.

Sometimes, I wonder if all this choke tube stuff isn't just another way to remove money from our pockets. Undertaker this. Patternmaster that. Yeah, I can somewhat see the reason for extended choke tubes (i.e., force applied to the pellets over a longer distance), but does it really matter on hard shot like steel and Hevi?

[skeet]

Fabs I can tell you that without a doubt longer chokes can make a big difference on patterns...if they are done right. A lot of them on the market are exactly what you said... A way to remove money from our pockets. They are mass produced you know...and every bbl is different inside. every one! One reason I like Briley. If ya send a bbl to them to be choked..they choke the bbl to fit the bore. I have a 12 ga 11-87 bbl that is .737 in the bore. Even a skeet choke is kinda tight. A skeet choke for a normal .729 bore(nominal 12 ga) has about .003-.004 constriction. In this bbl the constriction is.011. Just a little tighter than Improved cylinder. I got a choke from Briley and told them bore diameter and they sent me a skeet choke for that bbl. Measures about .0045...and boy does it shoot patterns. 2nd best I've ever shot. The best patterns I ever got was with a Baker Big Bore bbl with Federal paper light 9's. If I held her right it smoked targets from any station on the field. Like an idiot I sold that gun.

I also have an 1100 Standard weight 20 ga D grade bbl that was sent to Briley to be choked. With the skeet choke in it will crush targets with authority from anywhere on the skeet field

[tjwatty]

Skeet can probably correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Undertaker tube is designed for steel shot, therefore I would "assume" that it would be designed to grab the wad thus giving the steel a better chance to deploy. The wad in the lead version might not slow at the same rate giving a tighter pattern.
Just my 2 pennies worth.

[skeet]

TJ I really don't know if that choke is made for steel. If it is a waterfowl choke then yes it is. Chokes and patterns are really weird things. It's kinda like shooting at a crippled duck on the water.. You can have a choke that shoots really tight patterns...but to kill the duck you have to shoot him in the head. On the water ya have to shoot over top of him to do it right. Patterns really act strange in different environs...Now everybody shoots right at a turkey's head...what makes the big difference?? Try it some time. You'll see I am right. I really wonder about all of this stuff for turkeys now. Everything is high tech. How in the H did we ever bag a turkey? Or deer hunting! How did I ever get a deer without all that camo and scent loc stuff..and high tech bullets and deer scent and deer calls etc etc etc! Actually most of the items people think they need nowdays is really unnecessary. I feel the same way about chokes. Get a good choke for any hunting. But if ya do it right you won't have to worry about having 87 pellets on the turkey's head to kill him. 4 or 5 will usually do it. The main thing is with any gun load or choke on turkeys is to KNOW where it shoots!..and do it under 40 yds..preferably under 30 yds. That is the hunting part of it. Gettin 'em right in there in your lap!! Same way with waterfowl. I like to be able to read the numbers on their leg bands!! And I know you like them ducks the same way, TJ!!

[Zazu45]

Yes the choke is desinged for steel shot.
Problem is it does not want to pattern with smaller shot.
50% with no2 , 60% with BB , that make for pretty sparse patterns wich even a goose could fly thru.
I still have to try "BBB" and "T" shot thru it, who knows, might just work.

By the way, the other day I had time to kill so I took out my caliper and made some measurements.

Undertaker: bore=0.740 Muzzle=0.700

Remington factory modified: bore=0.735 Muzzle=0.710

Seems the Undertaker is playing the Browning "back bored"trick.
Also, compared to the Remington, the Undertaker would be very clos to a "full choke". Weird, no ?

Any ideas ?


Denis.

[skeet]

Zazu...the bore of the bbl can't be two different sizes. Now if you are measuring the end of the choke where the shot enters and exits I understand the measurements. You will have to have a bore gauge to measure the size of the bore.. The reason that the part of the choke that the shot enters is larger is so that the choke won't be blown out of the bbl when the shot hits. They are making that larger so they can cover their butt on fitting any gun. It really has nothing to do with how it chokes the shot. Also most chokes have the choked area inside the choke a little way. Briley does it with a parallel section in the choke....in the extended chokes usually about an inch in length. And again...chokes don't always work the way they are designed to do. Every shotgun and choke is a law unto itself. That steel undertaker choke. Was it designed for the larger steel or what? They are usually designated on the package.

[Zazu45]

Skeet.

Yes, the packaging stated:"For BB, BBB and T shot".
My guess is that is the reason "BB" shoots tighter than no2 in it.
I definitaly have to try "BBB" and "T" shots in it as I am convinced they will shoot better .
So my guess is that I will have to buy another choke to shoot no2 and "BB" at ducks.

[fabsroman]

While you are at it, but another gun too. See, if duck and goose season overlap, you'll need another gun so that you can have each choke installed and you can have the proper pellet size shells loaded in each gun. Personally, I am thiking about going back to using the modified choke that came with my SBE.

[tjwatty]

fabs, on that note,

I found that my new super duper ciro-genicly barreled longer chokes so the ones you have won't work Bennelli patterns a whole lot different than my older Bennelli.
The Mod. works almost as good as the Briley Mod. (duck choke) in the M1 Super and the factory choke sucks in full for turkey.
Once again it just proves that Skeet fella knows his stuff, they all shoot different.

Don't cha just hate it when he's right ALL the time???

[fabsroman]

Skeet being right ALL the time would be scary, and I totally agree that all chokes and shotguns shoot differently. That is why I am a big fan of reloading. I can ensure that I keep everything constant unless one of the manufacturers of a component changes something up.