Next President and why

[fabsroman]

I must have been busy the past couple of days, because I completely missed Tennessee's post.

The Roman Empire fell after it was rich. Right before its fall, they were handing out bread in the streets (e.g., welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, Medicaid) and they were watching the gladiators in the Coliseum (e.g., NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL).

On a battlefield, tough choices need to be made. Sometimes, you just cannot save everybody. To save the nation, that is what might have to happen. We just cannot save every poor person out there, especially if they do not want to work.

To answer your question, I am definitely better off now than I was 8 years ago, and I'll probably be better off than I am right now 8 years from now. Not because of any specific President or other politicians, but because I work hard and save my money. This entire melt down has been coming for a while. The stock market went out of control on Clinton's watch, and then it crashed. When it crashed, people took their money out of the market and put it into real estate, and just like they got caught up in the stock market, they got caught up in real estate. Guess what, the real estate market crashed too. Now, people are scared of the stock market and the real estate market. Good, that is the way it is supposed to be. There was no easy lunch 50 years ago, and there isn't one now. One of my friends invested in an IPO 8 years ago and he made enough on it to pay off the mortgage on his house, but he didn't sell. He wanted more. So, he watched the stock fall to the point where he barely made anything.

Pigs get fat (i.e., they get fed), hogs get slaughtered.

This country is going through a tough time, and I seriously doubt that it will get better any time soon. The next President might be able to make a slight difference, but he or she won't make it all. Instead of blaming this economy on Bush, how about thinking about Greenspan and Bernanke. The FED is completely independent of the President, Congress, or the Supreme Court. Maybe they should have tightened monetary policy before the stock market got way out of control. Greenspan tried to warn people back then that they merely had a paper profit. Same thing goes for the real estate market. The FED kept the rate too low for too long, and house prices soared. They soared so high that people were worried about being able to ever afford a house, so they were desperate to buy. Along come the mortgage brokers that made a quick buck and came up with new, innovative products to sell. I know too many mortgage brokers and realtors that are broke right now, but they made a ton of money over 3 or 4 years. Problem is, they didn't save a thing.

[Purebred Redneck]

There's far more important things than guns.
The economy (including immigration), healthcare, social security all trump gun control. That's not my opinion, that's common sense fact.

To me, it's who can take care of these issues best.

Economy: I want a crackdown on employers who hire illegals giving them no incentive to be here.

Healthcare: I want national healthcare.

Social Security: It obvouisly needs to be fixed but not nessisarily in the next 10 years if other things (ie immigration and healthcare) are stressed first.

As far as taxes is concerned, I think there needs to be some reform - in particular with writeoffs and capital gains (in the form of stocks being given as income bonuses). You have multi-millionares paying far less taxes than even working class families.
I'm almost tempted to support a flat 7-10% tax with no writeoffs. That falls into the catagory that most people pay anyway and it will allow for the rich to pay their fair share without weasling out of it.

I don't think the realestate housing crisis is being handled very well. No question, homeowners and banks have both been the cause of this. The solution is not giving assistance.
If someone is not able to afford their house, they need to sell it and move into something more affordable. Bottom line.

For my view of what's best for America, it leads me to Hillary Clinton.

[skeet]

BUT PBR I think you ought to take another look at some of those issues. Alright..lets look at health care. Government run healthcare will ruin the medical profession in this country. Law suits have almost done it. Ya think Gummit run health care is better...look at Canada or even England. If you want good and prompt care you'll find a private physician. Immigration is an issue that really needs to be taken care of. You are right...crack down on the employers for certain.. Also deport all illegals..now the bad thing is the dems don't want to do that. The illegals in this country donate a lot of money to the Democrats campaign funds. As far as taxes...I'll go along with you on a 7% income tax on earned income at all levels. Flat taxes really sound good...but no country really has an actual flat tax so there must be some sound reasons for not having them. The things you are talking of are things that all sound good until you look at the actual costs attributed to universal health care and such. Take a look at the SS problems. The gummit is running it and look at the problems. Look at welfare...The gummit is running it and look at the problems and the costs that escalate. We have people on welfare that have no earthly reason for being there. We really ought to have work fare for those who can work...and no BSing about ability to work. And it isn't a black issue as about 55% or more of those on welfare are not black. Time to make changes there but our politicians(especially the Dems) will not even attempt to change the rules with that. People really ought to be responsible for their own actions instead of the government bailing them out all the time. And as far as the housing industry...they build what they think people want...and most are so greedy nothing less that the best is what they want. What is wrong with starter homes...remember them?? That is what I started with.. Now as far as guns..Hillary and her ilk will attempt to take them from you for certain. The only thing that makes you and me free citizens in this country is the right to have firearms...and without them you will be nothing....other than what the king of England considered you to be in 1775...a serf who was subservient to him. And I hate to tell ya...Hillary ain't even close to being a King George. She is actually worse. So is Osama obama or what ever his name is. Sorry bud...but you really have to wake up...Oh BTW if ya think I feel the republican candidates are a whole lot better...you're wrong! But oh my..anything would be better than those 2 democrats. The dems will give you a flat tax eventually...only it will be in the 90% range and then you'll get exactly what you want..the government taking care of you from cradle to grave. Again y'all...what is wroing with us being responsible for ourselves and our own families?? BTW PBR...are you a Socialist or Communist?? Not an accusation...just a question

[Jack]

Steve Forbes was pushing the flat tax idea a number of years ago. By his estimation, it would have been about 17 %, and that sounded ok to a lot of people.
Then a few independent groups checked the math
Turns out the flat tax would have to be about 33-34 % to equal the revenue stream we have coming in now...suddenly, the flat tax idea faded away.

[skeet]

The actual figure for a flat tax to equal the taxes we pay now is in the 40-45% range. Maybe more. Figure all the taxes you pay..income local federal and state..fuel taxes sales taxes property taxes.licensing fees for cars boats etc etc tolls even hunting licenses(and they are a tax) Time you get done and it gets pretty high. Oh don't forget the tax we pay on our guns and sporting items...even fishing stuff Now add in the costs of government run health care and other things and it's starting to get into the 50-60% range really easily.. But you do have to admit...our gummit really "loves" us! right to the poor house

[Purebred Redneck]

thanks for being respectfully skeet.

I really can't compare socialism to communism. One is an economic system and the other is a political system.
communism incorporates socialism.
It would be possible to have a democratic government with a socialist economy.
I am 100% for democracy. I think too many people vote republican against their own (everyone's) economic interest. I think if people would actually sit down and look openly at what the democratic party offers, they might not change their mind but perhaps they would be less hatefull.
As for 90% taxes - let's be realistic. That's not going to happen. I'm certainly open to raising taxes to pay for things society can benifit from --- free undergrad college for instance. It may also be time to start implementing public works projects if the economy does not improve --- of course that will probably include greencard workers

Yes, we definatly need to deport illegals. Both parties have too much invested in them. But we are getting to a dangerous job market in which something absolutly needs to be done.

But on social and economic issues, I certainly follow the FDR path. His policies (which are still in use today) help a lot of people.

Healthcare - I have talked to a few canadians on the internet over the last couple years on this issue.
It's funny that canadians like their healthcare. I think it's actually the US citizens criticizing something they don't know much about.

Welfare to me is really not an issue. People complain about people feeding off it like worms. It's just not the case. The number of people on welfare is actually very small. Most people who qualify for it don't even take it.

Have good evening

[Purebred Redneck]

I'm talking a flat federal income tax

If you're talking about including everything in one lump sum, it definatly needs to be more than 10%

As far as health care, we pay a large amount in premiums anyway. I pay close to 1000 dollars for myself. Whether or not I pay it to private parties or the government, I don't care.

And you know, in both issues it's going to be roughly the same for the vast magority of us.

[skeet]

It may be possible to have a socialist democratic society but there really isn't one in the world today. There are a couple countries that are socialist but not really democratic. Democracy is different than you may think. We have a republic here It's not working the way it was envisioned. There were no provisions for the social reforms that have been enacted. The constitution did not envision social security and welfare but we have found a way to incorporate those ideas into our very governed way of life. I think there are more people on welfare than you may believe and to be very honest I know of too many people that need the welfare programs and really didn't know how to get approved for them. Many of the people that you think that don't get welfare aren't able to get past the screening process. Talk about a beaurocracy. Hate to break the news to so many people but a repulican(not repub party) government with socialism at it's core will not long endure. At least not in the manner in which this country was designed by our founders. BTW I have talked to many people from Canada and quite a few really were not happy with the health care provided. As far as countries that have flat taxes...I think Sweden comes closest to your ideals...cradle to grave care by the government and the tax rates there are horrendous 70% or so plus I think they have a VAT too

[fabsroman]

I didn't see anything about balancing the budget, getting rid of the national debt, and bringing back manufacturing jobs to the US, but I guess those aren't important either.

Now, if we all of a sudden go to a flat tax, what do you tell the person that bought a residential rental property with the intention of depreciating it over 27.5 years. How about the person that buys a larger house because he is currently subject to the AMT and home mortgage interest is almost always deductible under the AMT. How about the corporation that just spent $1,000,000 on new equipment because they can depreciate it?

Yes, I agree that the rich shouldn't receive the benefit of a 15% capital gain rate, but that could easily be taken care of by increasing the rate to 25% for those in the higher income tax brackets.

As far as the rich not paying any taxes, that is almost impossible with the AMT. AMT stands for Alternative Minimum Tax, and it was enacted because some genius rich guy in 1960 something started bragging about how he made a ton of money and paid absolutely nothing in federal income tax. Congress got wind of this and they passed the AMT which was targeted toward the rich to make sure they paid their fair share. The AMT was not adjusted for inflation over the years, so now it is hitting more and more people. My wife and I were hit with it this year, and if it wasn't for the temporary AMT patch that Congress passed in the 11th hour, we would have had to pay an additional $1,500 in taxes and we are far from rich. The AMT was geared to apply to people earning 6 figures back in the 1960's. Guess what, 6 figures was a heck of a lot more in the 1960's than it is today. Anyway, the patch they passed in late December 2007 only applies to the 2007 tax year because they have no idea how to recoup the lost revenue.

What do you tell the poor married couple with two kids making $30,000 a year right, barely getting by, but not having to pay any taxes because of the standard deduction, personal exemptions, and very low tax rate. According to my calculations, based upon the scenario above, and taking into account the child tax credit, the couple wouldn't have to pay anything in taxes until they exceeded $43,000 in income. What do you tell them when they have to pay $4,300 in federal taxes at a 10% tax rate? What do you tell them when they have to pay $6,450 at a 15% flat tax rate.

Everybody wants to cry about taxes, but it really isn't that bad right now. These are some of the best tax rates we have seen in quite a while, and EVERYBODY is enjoying them. Don't just tell me that the rich are enjoying them. By the way, I forgot to mention that in the above scenario, if the couple only makes $25,000, they get nearly $2,000 back from the government for the EIC, Earned Income Credit, and that is without them paying a single dollar in taxes. How do you break the flat tax news to them?

Being in the middle class and paying close to $15,000 in taxes, I'm all for a 10% flat tax because we would pay $3,000 less. Now, go break that flat tax to the rich and the poor. Something tells me that the rich won't mind it all that much. They probably wouldn't mind a 15% flat tax either. However, remember to keep this thing flat, with no deductions, credits, exemptions, etc. or other special treatment for anybody.

Yep, the flat tax sounds like a great idea until you really get down to it. The democrats talk about it, but do you really think they would pass a true flat tax. Their supporters would hang them.

I could go on for quite a while about the rest of this stuff, but you can just take a gander at my "The Senate is Killing Me" post. They cannot even get the economic stimulus bill passed without adding more pork to it. Do you really think they could get a flat tax passed? Now you are kidding yourself.

Social Security. Can you believe that the government is not earning a decent rate of return on the money put in that fund, because the money is actually being borrowed by the government itself. The SS trust fund is solvent, but it has no money in it because the US government has borrowed it all, and it doesn't pay much other than a minimal interest rate on it. If the money were invested by a decent fund manager, then social security would be able to stand a chance. Also, if a 3% increase were made to the FICA tax, the fund would be solvent well toward the end of this century. Now, try selling that 3% increase and a 10% flat tax to the poor.

Health care. I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again. The federal government cannot even administer Medicare and the state governments cannot even administer Medicaid, yet you want to put them in charge of the entire health care system. Yep, I see that being run just as well as social security. By the way, what would be the additional tax for this. We would just add that to the 3% hike for social security and the 10% flat tax. Do you think 5% could cover it. Okay, lets go with 5%. Now, go break it to the poor that they have to pay a flat tax of 18% so that we can make sure this county runs smoothly.

Does the 10% flat tax take care of the budget deficit and the national debt. Maybe we need a little more. So, tack on another 2%. Now, we have an even 20% flat tax. I'm sure the couple I mentioned above with two kids, making $25,000 a year, usually getting close to $2,000 in free money from the government each year will be jumping for joy knowing that instead of netting $27,000 a year because of the EIC, they will actually be netting $20,000, because 20% of $25,000 is $5,000 that they will have to fork over to Uncle Sam. Please, go tell them that, and make sure you tell them that we are putting this flat tax in place to make sure everybody pays their fair share, the rich included. If they own a gun, they will probably shoot you with it.

Everything sounds great in theory.

[Jack]

Fabs, I agree that the flat tax idea is one of those simple things that sound great, but is unworkable.
Just for the record, I've never heard a Democratic party candidate advocate the flat tax- it's been raised in Republican primary races, to my knowledge. Steve Forbes made it a cornerstone of his campaign platform a few years back, and now Mike Huckabee's talking about it.
In my earlier post about the flat tax, the 17% and 33-34 % figure I quoted were only for federal income tax, not all the other local and state taxes we pay. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

[skeet]

Those points you were making is exactly what I was saying. The government can't even run to the bathroom in a straighteorward manner. I can't see them running anything else. All the flat rate thing and the health care thing sound good in theory. What PBR and others that support these ideas don't see is who will be paying for it. It won't be the rich or the poor..it'll be the guys in the middle just like themselves. Anyone who thinks the rich pay no taxes is foolish. Of course some get away with less some years...and then the next they pay more. The poor pay no taxes and in fact we help the poor along in this country with our taxes paid to the government. Those tax moneys are mismanaged(PBR and Tennessee both alluded to that...and then they want to give the government even more irresponsibly managed money to spend. Sheesh. I can't believe they would be so blind. Personally I would like to make a clean sweep of the whole executive branch or the government and start over with citizen legislators as it was meant to be. The aristocracy we have in place now is unresponsive to the needs of this country...but not to their own "needs". You know...the "need" to be re-elected And then we have the non-thinking group such as PBR and TEM who want to elect people who will take more from them and give them less than they feel they deserve.

Oh and another little known fact.. In the countries where the govenment cares for you cradle to grave you MUSt be accepted in to most everything you want to do. Wanna go to college and get a degree?? Gotta take tests and beat out a certain amount of people to get a place in one of the universities. All that sounds good to some but again..where does the personal responsibility come into play??

[Lilred]

I'd like to make a note on personal responsibility iffin I may...

I'm a FIRM believer in..."Iffin you made yer bed then sleep in it."
MY and YOUR money...are bailin the friggin idgits out of the hole they dug themselves. I aint rich...and I NEED my friggin money!
I wont stupid...I went with a mortage I could actually afford.
Not my problem.
How many folks do you see at Wally World sittin in the the motor wheelchair/cart thingy that really need it? How many times have you seen a old timer with a walker barely walkin round the wal-mart cause all the carts are took by some 20 yr old?
TOO many times. Same with welfare. God ferbid iffin I ever needed help, I'd never git it. Here's a concept...dont ask fer no dam help and git up off yer ass and go to work at mcDonalds er somthin. Really...how many trailers did the taxpayer buy fer Katrina "victims" and how many are still livin in the friggin things??

Democrats are pushin "fer the people....we're ALL about the people"...well...I'm sick of payin fer the "people" and I say that we are once again in 1776....taxation without representation.
Solutions...nobody, dem er pub will actually have the guts to do what needs to be done....cause there's too many Americans relyin on the government to bail em out of mortages, gittin a job and findin their own place to live where they actually have to pay fer it.

Dont git me wrong, people somtimes fall on hard times and need a lil help...I am more than willin to pay my fair share fer that...but...give an inch take a mile...and the mile done went to lightyears. Candidates can promise all they want...but they aint gonna do crap about it. That goes fer the illegals too.

At least that's how I see it.

[skeet]

Whyncha tell us haow ya really feel. I feel the same way kiddo

[Andy L]

Lil Red, I couldnt have said it better.

With the mortage thing, I know alot of folks that got caught, my mother included. A good democrat I might add. It didnt take a rocket scientist to see it coming. When you get a champagne house on a beer budget with a ARM or intrest only loan, when it comes time to pay the piper, your up shirts creek without a paddle.

I love my mother, but I told her it was a bad deal. Anyone that got caught in that mess, well, its not the governments fault and its damned sure not my fault and we shouldnt have to pay for it. Plain and simple. Ive made plenty of mistakes in my life and paid for every single one. Never got a penny from the government for anything and wont.

As for healthcare, get a damned job that has a group plan or at least one member of your household get one. Hell, thats the only reason my wife is working. She makes good money, but the main reason is so we have healthcare. Again, not rocket science. And damned sure not the government or my place to make sure you got free or cheap healthcare. If you want something get it from the lawyers pockets. They are the reason its so damned high to begin with. My wife works for a doctor and its a crying shame what people will hire an attorney and try to sue for to get something for nothing.

PBR, I can see you havent gone up any IQ numbers. Your too far gone to even discuss things with. However, guns are a big deal to some of us. Even the black guns that annoy you when your on the range.

Im done for now.

[Lilred]

I do my best