Nice

[skeet]

Larry... to the average shooter the 20 ga may be a good starter. But if ya think the 20 doesn't kick much more than the 410...try shooting either with the butt of the gun against your forehead...or your chin. I've done it and the 410 surely is a pussycat..the 20 ga hurts. As far as starting a woman or kid with a 12...it really isn't a very good idea...even if the darn thing is loaded down to 7/8 oz loads...even slow loads. The problem with any of these suggestions is what happens if they get a chance to shoot without your "light" loads...or with a gun that really doesn't "fit" as well as it should. Finding a gun that "fits" is a problem in and of itself. I had an 1100 28 ga that I had 3 different length stocks and each had at least 3 recoil pads that were fit to the stocks. Usually got it pretty close for them. Also had a 20 ga 100 similarly set up. Some women could handle the recoil of a 20...especially after getting the basics in hand.. In fact most usually went to the 20 after a while. A couple even went to the 12. One lady shot the 12 just fine in the field. She made quite a few trips out to the Dakotas for pheasant and ducks. But when practicing...she shot the 20...or the 28. Even 1 oz 12's hurt her when practicing. When shooting at game she told me that she didn't even feel the gun go off. As I don't when shooting at game.....except slugs...and that blasted 300 Weatherby Mag. Kicks worse than my 375 H&H. Before moving I bought one of the new 1100 Sporting guns. Still have it... hardly been shot. Still have 2 of the stocks too..just in case. With the right choke and load the 28 is still a 40 yd gun...in the right hands. The 12 is just not necessary on the teaching field IMO. Not starting an argument...just making a very informed observation. I got paid(very well) to teach...Oh...and just to let ya know..ol Fabs really ain't too bad with a scatter gun...or a rifle either for that matter. Now I think I am off to bed...er sumthin

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet.....

I'm not arguing with anyone. If you can teach someone easily with a 28 or 20 and they can master the firearm and be satisfied, then you've done your job. My wife shot with us at hunter ed class we were teaching and was very very frustrated till one of our instructors brought over a gun he had cut the stock on which fit her much better, a 20 ga. in this case. This was an over-under and heavier than the guns she had been shooting prior, but nonetheless much easier for her learn how to lead and shoot. In fact, her getting a double with it, really got her enthused.

Subsequently another bird hunter friend of mine had her shooting with a 12ga one time when they were down at the skeet range. That was also cut down for kids and women. He loaded up some lo base brass and 7/8 and 1 oz loads for her. These proved to be no problems for her whatsoever. As for shooting loads heavier loads by accident or otherwise, EVERYONE should know what the heck they are shooting, and if you're teaching them and they don't, why not and why are you there?

I'm not a bird hunter really, and don't know much about this stuff, but I teach people how to shoot my muzzleloader shotgun and that gun is about as recoiless as you'll find anywhere... White 6 groove straight rifled 12 ga. When they go to a "real" shotgun, they are very prepared and find them to be a piece of cake.

Aloha...

[Lilred]

I think I'm a bit different than most, but have shot all of those shotguns as a youngun.

If you start a kid or gal, start the poor thing on a gun he/she will actually hunt with and will actually kill somethin with. I can't tell yall how many of my sons friends stopped huntin for the simple reason that they couldnt hardly hit nothin with the gun. I've seen some 20 ga. guns that couldnt shoot a pattern 30 yrds from the barrel..no matter if it was 1's or 8's. Then I've seen em shoot 8's great and couldnt shoot buckshot.
I aint never seen a 410 shoot/kill anythin past 30 yards...
point bein...a kid or gf will lose patience and interest if they are forced to learn on a gun that wont do them nary an ounce of good when they hit the field/range except not make them cringe at the noise and kick.
If they are that mortified of noise/kick than they pose a danger to themselves and others as far as I'm concerned. They need confidence to handle a gun. Sure it's ok to be scared/nervous at first...but there's a big difference tween nervous and mortified.

I started out on a 16 dbl brl fox. I wanted to learn to shoot, so if my Pop was to hand me a bazooka I woulda tried it lol
He told me..." this here is gonna kick. but dont be scared of it, cause when you see that target in front of you and you focus on it, you wont feel a thing."
He was right and I was shootin a 12 in no time. My son started out the same way. I can honestly say that he can ALMOST outshoot his mama with her own 12 ga Winchester.....notice I say...almost

[skeet]

You darlin are a real trip. You ae of course also right. If they want to learn to shoot..A bazooka ain't anywhere near too big.

[Larryjk]

skeet, Shooting with the shotgun against your forehead. Now I know what is wrong with you! The reason why I never tried the 28 gauge is simple: I never had one. I tried to buy a Model 12 from a friend who had one in 28 when we were in high school, but he would always tell me he couldn't because his Dad gave it to him. Well, his dad died and I didn't ask. He traded it to a guy in SD for a Winchester lever action in .405. He has a collection of the old lever actions.
Anyhow, don't shoot a 10 gauge agaist your forehead. It may give you terminal migraine.

[skeet]

More than anything that is a metaphor. Any thinking person won't shoot a shotgun with the but on their forehead. It would literally hurt...other than the little 410 of course. But In teaching i regularly put my chin on top of the stock just to show students that you can break the target from wherever you put your face...as long as you do it the same way everytime and just LOOK at the TARGET. I don't shoot the 12 ga too awful much anymore. Just too much recoil. Didn't say I couldn't...just said I don't have to shoot it. After a million or so shells recoil does accumulate. After all those 12 ga shells I am surprised I can still shoot it. To give you a case in point about light 12 ga loads A fellow here in Cody loads 7/8 oz 12 ga loads..mainly for cost savings and recoil reduction. Shot a couple of his "light" loads in a nice fairly heavy 12 double...pretty gun...but holy crap. They weren't light. They kicked a lot harder than my 20 ga 1200 FPS loads. Chrono'd 2 of those shells and they were pushing 1450 FPS. He was really doing his granddaughter a favor teaching her to shoot with that gun and loads. No wonder he couldn't shoot it either. I got his loader set up with a nice 7/8 oz load at 1155 fps and now he can shoot that gun. He ran his first 25 with that gun and load just yesterday..after about 8 months of trying. His granddaughter had a little trouble holding up my Krieghoff but could actually break targets with it...in 28 ga. She'll be back in August...and I am already set up to give her a few lessons. And giving gramps a few lessons in loading too.

A case in point about shotshell loaders(people). I sold shooting stuff for over 35 yrs. One out of 10 shotshell loaders had a powder scale. Seriously..1 of 10. They all took it for granted that the bushings threw what the chart said. Sure they do...every time! Oh and Red and Green Dot are just alike and 700X is a great 28 ga powder...and...oh y'all get it.

[Larryjk]

skeet, I don't know how many I have shot (12ga, 11/8 oz.) but it has been a bunch. I started shooting 1 oz. a few years ago because it didn't seem I needed all that shot for 16yds. Then I tried 7/8 oz. in the 12 ga. because I was using 7/8oz. in the 20 gauge on clays and did just fine. I decided to get more serious about the 7/8oz loads when shot went up in price. I had tried 7/8oz for skeet and it was fine. I have tried it on 16yd. trap and the results are okay. Just shoot a little faster and use the full choke.
I am an old .410 fan. I used to shoot one as a kid and then came back to a Winchester Model 42 as an adult. Yes, there are times it is outgunned. It isn't a duck or goose gun. But it does quite well on pheasants and quail if you get right on them. I have also been known to put a set of tubes in the Beretta and shoot .410 at skeet. it is fun.
I learned a long time ago to test the powder weight when I changed bushings. They don't always throw what the chart says.
I am a great believer in weighing powder chargesfor the rifles and checking what goes into a shotgun shell.

[skeet]

Originally posted by rattus58
Hi Skeet.....


He loaded up some lo base brass and 7/8 and 1 oz loads for her. , EVERYONE should know what the heck they are shooting, and if you're teaching them and they don't, why not and why are you there?


:

Rattus...I am not talking about what is happening when I am teaching. I can also tell that you aren't big into shotshell reloading . What I worry about with the young and the women is someone doing the dirty deed when I happen to not be there. Like the guy giving his granddaughter 1450 FPS reloads. Not everybody is as cognizant about what women and kids should shoot...and many could care less. I have heard guys laughing about how the gun was kicking women. Luckily I had a very good shooter teach me all those years ago. He knew that a 10 yr old couldn't handle a full size 12 ga and really learn. He taught me right...and I attempt to teach others in the same way. I bought my first Model 12 at the age of 11...and he cut the stock to fit me....it still kicked He also made me shoot the lightest loads available at the time. But he taught me with a 28 and a 20....and a model 42 410 which at first was frustrating. He made me hunt quail with the 28 ga! I had a lot of good instructors as a kid..Not all just about shooting..a lot to do with safety. I really didn't like hearing about safety all the time...but when the men I shot with formed a trap club...by the bylaws I was the only person under 18 allowed to be a member... I was 13. I musta done somethin right. I was really proud. When I started to shoot skeet I was taught at first by an older gentleman who taught skeet shooting to many Hollywood stars. He was an All-American skeet shooter...and he still pushed that safety thing all the time...and I had to learn to shoot skeet with a 20 ga..model 12 in fact. He had a 5 gun M-12-42 set...which I later bought from his son after his death. I'm not the greatest shot in the world...but I do know how to teach shooting. At least with a shotgun

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet....

Well I always considered the shooting sports to be an adult sport.

Anyone who is dealing with someone who is not skilled in shooting, has no business monkeying around for "kicks" for any number of reasons, not the least of which is safety, and teaching proper habits so one does not have an unfortunate experience in the instant or future. I try my best to hang with a responsible crowd who love their kids and those others we work with. I haven't run into the types depicted here or on YouTube.

Aloha... Tom

[skeet]

Originally posted by rattus58
. I haven't run into the types depicted here or on YouTube.

Aloha... Tom [/B]

Tom I'm sorry that you haven't had the chance to be around these types of people. You've really missed some of the best parts of life Remember...many of these types are receiving the Darwin awards regularly. Why?? Well they just NEED to get that award! Just like ol Bubba saying..Hold my Beer...watch this! Famous last words

[Larryjk]

Skeet, Your last reply pushed a couple of my buttons. Nothing negative, far from it. I had a fellow that was in his late 80's giveing me skeet shooting lessons. He had been in the Army Air Corp in WW2 and laughed about his job. He was an officer and was assigned to fly around to the different bases to set up skeet ranges and teach the bomber gunners to shoot skeet so they would do better at shooting down German fighters. He was a heck of a skeet shooter even at 86yrs. He told me he shot enough skeet he could probably hit them with his eyes closed. He passed away about 3 years ago and bequeathed a couple of his rifles to me. A really fine fellow.
The other thing was talking about Model 12s. I just got one off of Trapshooter.com. I had been lookintg for a 16 gauge with 28" barrel with modified choke that I could build up with a rib and new wood for a personal field gun. What I found is what I wanted to end up with, but now it is complete and all I have to do is get some shells. That 16 is the best balanced of the Model 12s. I am going to give some pheasants and quail some grief this fall. You are the man if you have the set including the 28 gauge.

[skeet]

I no longer have that set. but I do have a complete set of skeet guns in M-12's and 42's Have 2 28's plus one of the Browning sets. The 28 ga M-12 never worked as well as it should have. None of them..even the Browning. In a hundred targets I would almost always have a shell foulup of some sort. Never the same thing twice. But the root cause is the fact that the 28 is built on the 16 ga frame and after all mods it just had a few dimensional discrepancies. So you just got used to the foulups and got along with the round of skeet. The matched pair of 870's I have are about as reliable as any 870 ever could be..but they are kinda hard to shoot consistently...as are the 1100's. Just too small and light. I do have a Purbaugh conversion form standard 1100 20 (12 ga frame) to 410. An easy gun to shoot and patterns very well. Best I ever broke in competition with it was a 99. I've had a few 100's with my Krieghoff with 410 tubes in it. Just so easy to shoot. Shot a 97 at a shoot in Cody bout 10 days ago. Darn 410 is so hard to shoot....but I love it! I happen to have a few 16 ga shells. Some pretty good ones too. Not the dove and quail junk that is about all you can buy now. Never had much use for the 16 myself. Just a lost in space gauge. Oh...I had a few old skeet shooting friends that shot and taught skeet during WWII. They all thought they had it made

[skeet]

That I happen to have 2 M-12 Trap guns. One is a first year milled vent rib gun(1919) and the other is a solid Rib trap gun that I got at an auction in Cody last year(250 bucks)...and I still have that ol 12 ga I got so many years ago. It sure do be very well used and a little ugly. It has had over 400 thousand shells through it since I acquired it. I have also acquired over the years 2 other front ends ..one in 26 "IC choke and a 30" Full choke..original gun was 28" mod. According to the serial it is a first year 12 ga(1915). First year or 2 they only made 20's ......and a few 16's I have been told. I have had a thing for M-12's over the years. Bought and paid for my first house years ago with the money from selling a bunch of M-12's But it WAS worth it...I guess!

[jmarriott]

Originally posted by fabsroman
I used a .410 as my first shotgun, and mostly shot at clay pigeons sitting on tree trunks and birds on a wife.

I miss my EX-wife but my aim is getting better.

[skeet]

Somebody else was gonna catch that!! That is why I left it alone. Good catch JM