Petzal: CNBC’s Remington 700 Trigger Coverage A Clean Miss

[GoodOlBoy]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...id=enews102210

Editor’s Note: In light of the recent controversial CNBC program that deemed Remington Model 700 rifles unsafe, we asked Rifles Editor and Gun Nut blogger David E. Petzal to view the broadcast and offer his thoughts in this extended post. Petzal, a 54-year shooter, NRA Certified Rifle Instructor, former Army Drill Sergeant, and one the country’s foremost gun authorities, had this to say:

On October 20, CNBC ran a program entitled “Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation.” Claimed to be the result of 10 months’ of investigation by CNBC, it was narrated by a Senior Correspondent named Scott Cohn. The focus of the program was the trigger designed in the late 1940s for the Remington 721 (the predecessor to the 700) by Remington engineer Mike Walker. According to CNBC, the trigger was known to be defective almost from its inception; its design allegedly allows the rifle to be fired without the trigger being pulled. This has resulted, the program claimed, in thousands of complaints caused by accidental firings, as well as injuries and deaths.

Those are the bare bones. As I expected, “Remington Under Fire” was a hatchet job. The verdict is guilty from the get-go. No one from Remington would come on the program, nor would anyone from Cerberus, Remington’s parent company. This is not because they have something to hide, but because they know that if they appear on a program like this they will be made to look like liars or fools or both. If you’d like an example, consult any of the “documentaries” made by the lovely and talented Michael Moore.

Scott Cohn’s program exhibits an unsubtle mix of ignorance of the subject as well as serious journalistic deficiencies. First is the attitude toward guns as a whole. There were references to “safe” guns. Memo to Mr. Cohn: There is no such thing as a safe gun. Guns are inherently dangerous, and unless you handle them with care the results can be tragic. Everyone shown on the program who was killed or wounded by a 700 suffered because either they themselves or someone else pointed a 700 at them.

This is poignantly illustrated by the death of Gus Barber, a Montana boy who was shot by his mother Barbara in 2000. Mrs. Barber was unloading a 700 whose muzzle was pointed at a horse trailer. On the far side of the trailer was her son. The rifle went off; the bullet passed through the trailer; Gus Barber died. This was a terrible tragedy, and I am very sorry for the unbearable pain the Barbers suffered.

Rich Barber, Gus’ father, believes his son was killed because the rifle went off accidentally. In fact, Gus Barber died because a rifle was pointed at him. If the rifle had been pointed in a safe direction, all the Barbers would have gotten was a bad scare.

This kind of tragedy can happen to anyone, with any gun, if he or she ignores the prime directive of safe gun handling, put best by Jeff Cooper:

“Do not cover with the muzzle of a gun anything you do not wish to destroy.”

The CNBC program has a scene showing a Portland, Maine police sniper setting off a 700 by simply tapping the bolt. Incredibly, Mr. Cohn asks no questions at all about the rifle. Any journalist with even a modicum of gun knowledge would have dragged the department’s armorer on camera and asked this one simple question:

“Have you modified the trigger on this rifle?”

There is an interview with a West Coast range officer who states that 700s fire accidentally with such frequency that these incidents are called “Remington moments.” This is yet another example of more journalistic ignorance. If the rifles are so unreliable, why did Cohn not ask the gentlemen why they are allowed on the range?

In the course of the entire program, only one shooter is allowed camera time to say what a great gun the 700 is. One. There are 5 million Model 700s out there. Surely more than one person must like them. Could he possibly have found two people to say nice things?

It is mentioned that Remington has just been awarded a contract to build 3,000 more Model 700 sniper rifles, but that the Marines have had problems with accidental firing. I guess it was too much trouble to have someone explain that the 700 has been in continual service as a sniper rifle for more than 40 years, and that is has served with distinction under some of the most adverse conditions imaginable. Otherwise, why would the U.S. Government be buying 3,000 more? Are the Marines and the Army crazy?

Here’s what I can tell you about the Model 700 with the original, Walker-designed trigger (the new 700 trigger, the X-mark Pro, is a different design).

• I got my first 700, actually a Model 725, in .222, in 1960. There has never been a time since then when I have not owned at least one 700. I’ve never had an accidental firing with any of them, nor have I seen one, and we are talking hundreds of rifles and tens of thousands of rounds over 50 years.

• I’ve seen one 700 that should not have been handled. It was an ADL in 6mm that was made in the late 1960s. Its owner allowed a shooter who supposedly knew how to do so, to work on the trigger. He botched the job.

•And there we come to the crux of the matter. If the original 700 trigger has a fault, it is that it can be fooled with by anyone who has a small screwdriver. The adjustments are delicate, and if you don’t know how (or know enough) to keep sufficient engagement between the sear and the trigger connector, the rifle can slam fire, or fire when it’s dropped, or fire when the safety is flipped off. The same thing happens when you set the trigger pull lower than 3 pounds; it is not designed to function below that level, and there are some fools who love to take it down to 2 or 2 ½.

Right now I have an old 700 with a Walker trigger that has had over 5,000 rounds put through it with never a problem. But give me 5 minutes and a jeweler’s screwdriver and I can make it dangerous.

Enough. I eagerly await Mr. Cohn’s next program. I’m hoping it will be on why the public has so little confidence in news reporting.

We should all be thankful that Field and Stream thinks enough of our sport and industry to write articles like this.

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

David Petzal is correct about people messing up the Remington 700 trigger by trying to lower the pull weight below 3 pounds without making other changes to keep the trigger safe. The trigger return spring must be replaced by a spring that is lighter but longer than the original so the trigger always has return pressure to reset. A little maintenance every couple years isneeded to keep the trigger clean. Pore quality oils dry and create "varnish" that locks up the triggers. Sometimes they actually lock up. Amateurs with a screwdriver do make the triggers unsafe.

[Seawolf1090]

A very good response article. I agree totally. I don't have a Remington 700 or similar, but my Winchester 75T target rifle behaves similarly - if I lighten the trigger beyond a certain safe point using a wee screwdriver, it will fire when closing the bolt. Not a fault of the rifle, but a fault in procedure by the owner/shooter. I learned this safely at the range, and not by pointing a loaded rifle at someone!

[RagingBullPa]

iown a 721 circa 1947and several 700 rems never had a problem withany of them of courseanyone who listens to cnbc withe their liberal views, i got some bridges in manhattan for sale cheap

[PJgunner]

I've owned several Remington 700s,a 600, 660 and almost an XP100. The only reason i mention the others is at one time, every one of those guns along with the 721, 722 and 725 were recalled. They showed a test you could do to test the trigger/safety set up to see if it could be a problem. This was in the late 1970's as I recall but could have been the early 80's just as easily. IIRC, you were supposed to ease the safety slightly forward, but not enough to take it completely off and pull the trigger. Then, pull the safety back to whee it should be and then slide it off. If the gun fired, you had to send it back. At that time I only owned a Remington 660 that had been restocked with a nice piece of walnut in the full stocked Mannlicher style. It had one of the "bad" triggers. I caller Remington and they had me send it to one of their local repair stations. After about three months I got the gun back and the nice pull was gone, replaced by a gritty 8 pound pull. Not only that, but the new trigger had a larger housing and when they opened up the stock, they did not seal the hole. The stock swelled up after a hunt in some heavy raid and split internally, just bad enough that repairs were not feasable. Now the gun sits in an early style H&S Precision fiberthane stock that was made for a short action M700 that I had to alter and glass bed to make it work. That little .308 is hell on the deer population.
I also have three M700s, aBDL in 30-06 and two Classis, a 30-06 and a .35 Whelen.
While working for a gun smith, I was asked to see if I could make an early
M700 in .270 fire when taking the safety off the safe position. Try as I may, I never could make it fire under any circumstances other than when it was supposed to shoot. I think the fellow that had the AD/ND had his finger on the trigger when he took it off safety and the gun fired, the bullet hitting his wife in both knees shattering them. She lost both legs. As the guy was a friend and neighbor, I felt kind of bad that I could not find fault with the gun but I'm not going to lie in any court of law. he wasn't too happy about that.
Still and all, there has been much ado about this issue and long ago, I decided that if I were using one of my Remingtons on a hunt, the magazine would be full but the chamber empty. I've been doing that for a long time now with all my rifles, not just the Remingtons.
Last year was the very first time in over 50 years of hunting that I paid a guide to do a hunt. After 31 years, 32 now of not drawing for antelope here in Arizona, I went the "play for pay" route. When we exited the truck and the guide said to load my rifle, I loaded the mag, closed the bolt and snapped of the the gun on the empty chamber. I can still see the look of approval on his face when he said, "Good man." After the hunt, he did have a few horror stories of poor gun handling by his clients. For the record, I did get my "goat" after about a half mile stalk. The shot was at 75 yards. The head now hangs on my wall in our TV room. Guess I's best find something else to hang there as he looks lonely.
Paul B.

[buckhunter]

I watched about 75% of the interview. What psycobabble. Iam disappointed that Walker kinda backed up the reporter along with some other customer service type.

I have had a 700 since about 1988 and never a problem. Another anti gun story.

[Rapier]

The major problem with the subject Remington trigger is as stated, anyone with a small screwdriver can adjust it and most of the adjustment instructions floating around fail in one major regard........ Never reset a Remington trigger without using Locktite on all of the adjustment screws. Do not get Locktite inside the trigger and Locktite outside does not help anything. So start the screw then put a drop in the middle of the screw, as you set the screws, then allow the locktite to dry once a safe setting is achieved. Test the safety and slam the bolt home at least a dozen times.

The rub is that once the seal - glue as used by the factory is broken, the adjustment screws have a tendancy to "walk" with use, especially with heavy use, like on a match gun, unless the screws are set. If you are lucky the firing pin will only follow the bolt when out of adjustment. But sometimes the firing pin hangs for a moment and will fire just as the bolt closes, which is not good at all and is very dangersous.

I have seen Remingtons do this many, many times over the years and every single time it was due to a faulty adjustment job or no sealant was used on the adjustment screws.

I have served as the gun inspector at several world championship shooting events. My test for a Remington was to slam the bolt home, if it did not fire, I then rapped the butt on a mouse pad, on the table. If it still did not fire, it passed inspection. The Remington always got two tests, not because they were unsafe, but because they could be made unsafe by folks that had no idea of how a Remington could go from good to bad so quickly if improperly set up.

As a match director I have also had to order Remington shooters off the firing line when their gun started malfunctioning during a match. Again, every single instance was due to the trigger not being properly adjusted by an individual.

Remington designed the triggers at a time when everyone was expected to know something about the gun they owned and most people could maintain their guns in a proper way. Today 99% of the gun owners can't even clean a gun right.

I have no idea of how many custom Remingtons I have built over the years, but it is a good number. I use the factory triggers for hunting guns to this day, reset to 3 to 3.25 pounds with Locktite.
Ed

[Adam Helmer]

GOB,

I saw the video and it was poor reporting in my view; we need more information.

1. How did that father shoot his son in the wrist in Alaska? Did he always point his rifle at his son in the past?

2. How did that Michigan deer hunter shoot his wife in the abdomen? Did he always point the rifle at her midsection when loading and unloading?

Even Mrs. Barber could have pointed her rifle skyward rather than horizonal in camp. The "horror" stories look like "easy outs" for people who never practiced safe gun handling; Petzel got it right. If Belk could fix the Remington trigger for 5-cents, what is he waiting for?

I have owned Remington rifles since 1967 and never had an AD! I never heard of one at my gun clubs since I joined in 1967 and never heard of any from deer hunters since I started hunting in 1958. I will accept any Remington rifles anyone wishes to be rid of. Send me a PM and I will give you the address of my local gunshop. I really want 700 BDLs in the following calibers: 7x57, .280, 8x57, .300 WM, .375 H&H, .416 and .458. I will pay shipping. Donors may leave scopes and slings on their objectionable Remington Model 700 BDLs.

Thank you.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

I own several 700s, they have been bumped, dropped, etc by accident and have never gone off on their own, and even if they had I ALWAYS try to point in a safe direction.

GoodOlBoy

[wrenchman]

my father in law post model 70 would go off if you bumped the stock we had it repaired.
i have had 3 model 700 rems now only have only 1 in 270 and it shoots real nice.

[Adam Helmer]

GOB,

Can you believe NO ONE has sent me a PM so I can take their objectionable Remington 700 BDLs off their hands? I want all them "BAD" Remingtons, real bad, but where are they? I Dunno?

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

I dunno Adam, I posted something similar on a local board in my county, so far no takers.

Weird huh?

GoodOlBoy

[Adam Helmer]

GOB,

I reckon many Remington 700 owners are keeping their rifles despite the CNBC program. I wish I could spend a few days at Lufkin, Silsbee and Beaumont to get the "pulse" of this controversy. Eh, wot? Be well.

Adam

[skeet]

Well..I been tryin not to do it..but got a really great deal on a couple guns today..a Dan Wesson Pistol pack 357 and a Remington 700 BDL in 280..but i told 'em with all the controversy about the 700s goin off all by themselves i could only pay 300 bucks for it.. He musta agreed cause i have it.. and I been trying to get it to go off...

[jplonghunter]

Skeet

Make sure safety is released and squeeze trigger,they will go off every time in my experience.LOL

jplonghunter