Some gun clubs will not allow silhouette targets!

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

I am glad you are with me "in the Choir." As for Liability Waivers, unfortunately the sky diving Instructor (who signed his on that fateful day) died on his 3,003th sky dive. The Quality of a Liability Waiver is predicated on the quality of the Lawyer who draws it up. We all know some lawyers are at the top of their class, some in the middle and some at the bottom.

As for serious CCW folks: If they cannot draw loaded guns from their holsters at their gun club, WHERE can they do so BEFORE the need in Gravest Extreme on the street? The state has given them permission to carry a loaded gun on the street in a holster and now some gun club says they cannot draw from that same holster and "acquire" a target as they may have to on the street?

Gun clubs should be anxious to accomodate CCW folks rather than say "No holster draw because a mope shot the range ceiling!" There are many mopes driving cars, running chainsaws, navigating motor boats, etc. Serious CCW folks cannot rid the world of mopes, but if they cannot draw and fire at their gun club, where can they do "Live Fire?"

I own 60 very hilly acres; half wooded and half hayfileds. We fire everything from .22 CB caps to a Barrett .50 caliber semi-auto rifle SAFELY. I know we are friends and I have no axe to grind with you. All my CCW folks draw from their holsters and do double taps on a B-27 silhouette target. It may be unsafe for any mope to do likewise on the average gun club range. I do not know, I am not instructing there. I have very serious CCW students and they leave my farm ready for whatever comes their way. When the general public becomes involved, then we MUST realize that the best we can hope for is the "LOWEST COMMON DEMONINATOR", and, I agree Mr. 16 gauge, THAT is very scary.

Be well.

Adam

As for "Idiots," those bullet holes in the indoor range ceiling you mentioned in a prior post were NOT due to holsters of any type! I suggest it was due to improper training BEFORE the mopes went to "Live Fire."

[skeet]

Mr 16 is sure right..waivers are just something to make somebody feel good..otherwise ...worthless. I had a friend way back yonder..a bit older. He got a Colt 22 Single Action around 1960-61 or so. Got himself a quick draw rig and promptly shot a hole in the toe of his shoe..within a month he had shot himself in the leg...not once..but twice..the first time just grazing his calf..the second time in the thigh.. Stupid is not easily cured I guess. That being said.. I was working in the yard yesterday..and made what I consider one of the fastest draws I will ever make.. Damn near stepped on a rattler.. I drew and fired in a nice crisp move..and even hit the sucker..course I was using shot loads..LOL. He was just a little pissed off. I carry a single action Uberti 45 when working in the garden or yard(so does my wife). Don't see 'em very often near the house..but I ain't very trustin when it comes to rattle snakes

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

The Waiver PREVENTED the deceased instructor's wife from suing the sky diving club, as I recall. If you know some waivers are/were "worthless", I suggest you find better lawyers. LOL.

As for your unlucky "quick draw" friend, his lack of skill is not an indictment of serious folks who need to draw from a holster. If he cuts off his leg with a chain saw, will Stihl be LIABLE? NO law or Waiver can fix STUPID! But, stupid folks are NOT the general public and there is no correlation between mopes and serious folks as your rattler encounter proves.

Remove guns from mopes, but do not impose Group Punishment for acts committed by brain-dead mopes.

Adam

[skeet]

Adam the waiver didn't prevent her from suing. It may have prevented her from trying..Did she hire a lawyer?? or was the threat of the waiver a deciding factor in her decision on whether or not to sue?? Waivers are just that..a prevention..but as you know most things like that can be broken..with enough time and money. That is why we have lawyers

Now as to stupid folks...oh they are the general public..the general public is very stupid. I dealt with them on a daily basis. Adam..we all do stupid things..even you and me(well maybe not me LOL). Most asccidents are caused by doing stupid things. How many times have you seen women doing their makeup..men reading the paper etc etc while driving?? The general public does stupid things constantly. We cannot get away from stupid and that is why group punishment is imposed. One day either you or I may do a brain dead thing..and if you say you've never done one.. BS I say...LOL..you may not have ever gotten hurt or caught but you've done 'em. We all have

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Remove guns from mopes, but do not impose Group Punishment for acts committed by brain-dead mopes.

Adam...how do you remove a gun from a mope? Last time I saw, there is no law against people being stupid, unless they do something criminal with it. Of course, every time I bring up having some kind of 'test' before allowing someone a hunting license or gun, I get lambasted for 'curtailing freedom', get accused of being a "tree hugger', ect.
From where I sit, I think you are rather fortunate in that you can pick and chose who you will train and let shoot on your private range; that's a luxury that most folks running a range as a business cannot afford....he must take all comers, or go broke in the process. And he really doesn't have that much to go on to tell him whether or not this individual is a total doofus our reasonably safe and intelligent.

If he cuts off his leg with a chain saw, will Stihl be LIABLE?

Was Winchester liable? Apparently, they were....court says so! That's why they had to pay out millions of dollars and now put those stupid safeties on lever actions (all have 'em now). You and I both know that it's not right or just or fair.....it's just THE LAW. And I can almost guarantee you that if someone here in MI cut his leg off with a Stihl, they would be sued.....and Stihl would probably loose. That's what's wrong with our society today.....we have for too long allowed people to blame their stupidity on things other than, well.....their stupidity.

Gun clubs should be anxious to accomodate CCW folks rather than say "No holster draw because a mope shot the range ceiling!"

Yes, they should......but they don't.....and that's a shame.

As for "Idiots," those bullet holes in the indoor range ceiling you mentioned in a prior post were NOT due to holsters of any type! I suggest it was due to improper training BEFORE the mopes went to "Live Fire."

Never thought to imply that it was.....and I agree that it was a novice that probably watched too much TV. Seen too many 'gangsta' idiots shooting their guns sideways at one local range.....I don't go there anymore.

[Larryjk]

Yes, people do some of the dumbest things. But the only way to make them acceptable is with some honest training and sympathy. Don't browbeat them for stupidity; explain how what they did is dangerous and show them how to do it right, and then let them practice in controled conditions. Our city owned indoor range doesn't allow draw from the holster until they have demonstrated ability on the outdoor range. Naturally, the police agencies don't have to demonstrate ability and they have put most of the holes in the baffles. No group is perfect.

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

I guess I have NO good answer. Let us review: The State licenses CCW carry of honest citizens. Some gun clubs FORBID "Holster Draw" on the firing line. So what does a CCW person do to "groove" holster draw? I suppose the fortunate few come to my farm and receive proper training. My name and phone number is with NRA and they are permitted to give out that information. Only one person was rejected by me so far.

I have instructed college professors, doctors, priests, etc., and all thanked me for the training. My classes are small and conducted on my farm in the backyard with my Lori dog as Range Officer. It may come down to the fact that folks who want to shoot silhouette targets or shoot from the holster must go buy enough land out-of-town to do so. I am glad I bought 60 acres in 1988 with a mountain out back for a backstop. I have given up on PC gun club politics.

Be well.

Adam