Whitetail Myths...here's one

[Lilred]

Well I reckon I gotta start by explainin a few things...first...deer round these parts are skittish. VERY skittish. Huntin season here runs from first week in Oct-frst week of Jan. Dog runnin/gun season runs from the 2nd week of Nov-first week in Jan. These deer are SKITTISH....and I caint tell ya how many times I been busted in a treestand...rather..the deer look straight up in the stand.
Nevertheless...here goes Lilred..one week fore bow season started..puttin up a treestand. But..I HAD to...this is the golden hill I tell ya...deer been runnin all over it on a daily basis. Nervous bout it only bein there a week? Gord Lordy you bet I was...especially after it took me, hubby AND a screamin 2 1/2 yr old to drag it through the woods...not to mention there was nary a bit of scent cover or the like at all. I truly thought that it was a total waste of time..but we got it up anyway. I said to myself..."Self...there wont be another deer through here again fore 2010."

Saturday was the first day of bow...rained..rained upwards of 6 inches all day Friday and till 2pm Saturday. Everthin was flooded and trees down everywheres. BUT..it DID quit rainin at 2 lol...
The only place I could realistically go was that treestand I had just put up. What the hell I said...better than sittin inside. I apparently lost my scent-away too...dunno where I put it. Oh well I figured...it's still better than sittin inside. On the way to the stand I noticed fresh scat less than 30 yrds from the stand...yeeee haww I thought.
Wind was roarin from every direction...it'd rain then stop..then more howlin winds...rain then stop. It was cold too...and I was soaked. Cussin myself fer bein a goober at this point..I went to shift my weight on the swayin treestand only to knock my elbow on the tree and off flew my arrow.
Down it went soundin louder than the wind...seemed like it hit every dam step down....then..a deer snorted...and not 20 yards behind me was a ear-to-ear 8ptr and 3 does.
Done me nary a bit of good...they musta smelled me...they never gave my treestand a glance..but they aint like it there so they trotted away. I had been watchin that same buck since summer...I recognized him quick. Whats my point to sayin all this?

A. I apparently suck
B. That stand had only been there a week...brought in by 3 goobers...and 3 loud, smelly goobers at that. I know the deer had been there fore sat and after I placed the stand.
Generally, ya always try to place a treestand out in the spring er somthin...but I reckon it goes to show ya that ya should never give up hope and that even bein a goober might be ok on rare occasion.
But I think that says alot...are we too paranoid bout stuff like that?

[trex]

Good one Lilred! Happens to everyone though. If it hasn't...you haven't hunted long enough! I got a late start on Sat. Didn't hit the woods until 5:15. Had top watch my cousins football game. Anyways, got to where I needed to be and headed off towards my stand. Hadn't hunted that stand yet. Hung it last year. Got almost there only to see a deer take off towards the bottom. I slowed down a bit and got to my stand. The deer couldn't have been more than 20 yds from my stand when i saw it take off, As soon as I got to the base of the tree where the stand was the deer went to snortin. I thought well...it's late, it's too wet to get to any of my other stands, and too late too. Might as well get on up there and relax. Set up there for 30 minutes or so looking around and didn't see anything. Thought to myself I oughta go ahead and stand so nothing sneaks up on me with the wind the way it was. 10 minutes after I stood up here they came. One after the other in single file line. Had all of 8 does underneath me when i went to slingin arrows. When it was all over with there were two floppy heads laying there. None of the other der even spooked until I went to get out of the stand! When I did though...oh boy! There was snorting everywhere around me. I guess I could've been more patient and waited for a buck, but they were right there for the picking and I had a mean hankerin for some fried tenderloin. Anyways, it was good to get out there. Seems like theres plenty of deer this year. Hung a stand yesterday morning and this morning for later in the year. Cant wait to hunt them! Cant wait for them things to get ta chasin each other around!

[BILLY D.]

lilred

quote: "are we too paranoid about stuff like that"

as far as the scent thing, i think yes. how in the heck did the fathers of our country ever hunt deer without the aid of cover scents? and they had to get pretty close also. lots of those folks were lucky to get a bath once a month. and i'll just bet the farm those buckskins would run under the bed at night.

as far as the stand is concerned, in this state you have to haul your stand each time you hunt unless it's on private land and then only with the owners permission can you permantly leave it.

up here the wind blows almost constantly so i always position my self to the position the deer are most likely going to move in from. and when gun hunting i hunt into the wind. covers any noise i make and i don't have to worry about scenting.

good luck in the future hunts lady.

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I am not too worried about scent either. I thought about getting one of those scent-lok suits, but then thought better about it because I really haven't had too terrible of luck. I've had tons of deer under my portable stand, and I put it up every single time I go out in the woods and usually pick different trees. While rifle hunting, I killed one decent buck out of that stand after running the truck up to the tree in the morning and hanging the stand with the lights from the truck shining on the tree. That buck came walking along headed right to where I was. I shot him as soon as he stopped for a split second at about 100 yards.

Killed another decent buck while slug gun hunting and walking a trail. The buck had half of his body behind a tree and he was looking right at me as I raised the gun. He never he moved until I pulled the trigger.

Some days, you can get away with a lot. Others, you can't. I have seen guys smoking in stands and killing deer. I have seen guys peeing off the side of stands and killing deer.

In the end, I think a lot of this cover scent and carbon clothing is only around to make us poorer. Same with the new short magnums, but that is only my opinion.

Like Billy said, how did our ancestors kill deer with crappy muzzleloaders 100+ years ago? How about the Indians?

My pet peeve is the farming of land to attract deer. 100 years ago, do you think anybody left crops standing in the field to attract deer, or that they would plant several acres of clover and other "special" feed just for deer. The sport has become one of who can kill the most deer, who can kill the biggest deer, and people are willing to spend tons of money to do so. It really does bother me. People go to great lengths to develop deer herds and keep them around.

Now, I am not saying that we shouldn't have habitat around for wildlife, I just think people are taking it way too seriously. Kind of like the scent-lok stuff and the one million other gadgets out there to make us better hunters.

[Steverino]

The deer herds in the continental US are healthier than they have ever been and in most areas, the quality of the deer have improved substantially (look at both P&Y as well as B&C entries through the years)

I hear what you're saying Fabs and agree with it to an extent-I see alot of hunters try and compensate for lack of skills with the latest whiz-bang gadget on the market. I personally do feel that some of the newer technology (game cams, optics, rangefinders, etc.) when applied with good woodsmanship skills, can definately help tip the scales in a hunters favor.
That is not to say that one has to have these to hunt successfully (and the marketers job is to ensure the masses that we MUST have all of this! )

Lilred,

Keep on, keeping on! I cannot tell you a few seasons ago just how many times I got busted by deer going to a stand...didn't seem to matter which direction or speed the wind blew, I'd run into deer. The first really good cold front is planning on ripping through my neck of the woods on Thursday bringing with it some snow showers and low's in the mid 20's. (Cough, cough..I believe that I'm starting to come down with something that may have me absent at work later in the week )

[fabsroman]

Steverino,

I have had a laser range finder for about 8 years now, and I have yet to use it on game. I have killed 20+ deer over those 8 years, the exact number I have no idea about, and never once used it to range those deer. The only thing I have used it for is to measure my distance from "dwellings" because it is illegal to discharge a firearm within 150 yards of a dwelling without permission of the homeowner. Oh yeah, I used it one other time when some of my hunting buddies thought it was 250 yards to a feeding trough. I guessed 400 and it turned out to be 412.

Regarding deer herds, how are the mulies doing? I know the whitetails are doing really well, because I get to see plenty of them every night while driving around here. If it wasn't illegal, I could probably drive around the roads at night and fill up the back of my truck with deer. With so many deer around, why do we need all these gadgets to help us kill them. The odds are really stacked in our favor.

[Jack]

Fabs, I heartily agree with you about the competition for big bucks.
Just to be a contrarian, yes, habitat management was practiced a long time ago- before the coming of the Pilgrims, even. Not planting feed plots, but, many Indian tribes burned sections of forest to get sunlight to the forest floor and growth of new grasses, for the sole purpose of attracting game.
Should be remembered that this took place before any logging, when forests were typically dominated by huge trees that blocked the sun for smaller plants. Forests then were much more open underneath than they are now in 99% of the country.
As to scent control: one of the largest bucks I've seen taken was shot by a friend at about 35 yards. He shot it just below the ear, because that was the clearest opening thru thick brush. When we got to him, and were looking at what he'd shot, his comment was, "and I didn't even drop my cigarette"

[Steverino]

Fabs,

I too have never used my rangefinder to shotgun hunt deer as there just hasn't been a need to because almost all of my shots have been under 50 yards.

The rangefinder is a useful tool for bowhunting though, especially if you are hunting on an unfamiliar piece of land and you want to ensure that the correct pin is used on game that crosses ranged landmarks. Could you hunt without one? Sure you can but let's face it, alot of hunting is about confidence in your shot and preparation.
In the heat of the moment, I'd personally rather be certain that the monster buck with a body like an Angus steer and sporting headgear like a laundry rack made out of PVC I was coming to full-draw on, was already ranged at 35 yards from my vantage-point 20' up a tree so I know immediately what pin to set on him.

Of course, one could then make the arguement that one HAS to have a new whiz-bang pendulum site etc, etc.

To each his own...I suppose that without the advancement of technology the woods would still be filled with only flintlocks and stickbows and wouldn't that make for a simple HC forum???

[fabsroman]

The forum wouldn't be simple because there would still be plenty to talk about. We could even talk about which flintlock is the best on the market. What ammo and powder works best, what hunting techniques work best, etc. I think a lot of technique is lost due to all the technology out there that people have to sort through.

I just got back into cycling seriously after being out of it for several years. Well, my bike is 20 years old so I decided to buy a new one. Man, it took me about 6 months to understand all the technology out there. There is so much that has happened over the past 20 years that it is mind boggling. When I was racing, there were only steel frames and two component manufacturers, Campagnolo and Shimano. Now, there are steel, aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber frames, and mixes of the stuff. There are more component groupos then I care to shake a stick at and there are several manufacturers of components, along with a bunch of frame builders/bike builders. However, with all the technology out there, what still matters the most is how a cyclist trains. While riding my 20 year old sled, I have passed several riders on their technological marvels and dropped some of them. They even have hubs out for wheels now that can measure wattage output, but that hub costs $1,000. They have computers that measure altitude, incline grade, heart rate, cadence, speed, average speed, max speed, mileage, etc., and those cost around $300.

At the end of the day, it is more about the hunter and the cyclist, than the equipment that they have. If you hunt more, you have a greater chance of success. Same thing goes for bike racing. Now, if you spend all your time behind a desk trying to afford all the whiz bangs and carbon fiber frames instead of hunting or riding, your changes of success are rather limited. Of course, there is a happy medium somewhere, but I am just trying to figure it out.

[Steverino]

So....

In the spirit of conversation Fabs, I'm only assuming because of all of the technological headaches that researching has caused you over modern bike components and bike racing in general that you have opted, in the name of simplicity of course , to just slug it out competetively with that 20 year old bike, huh?

Of course, your new training regiment of only liquid protein shakes combined with your 3:00am-3 hour daily marathon sprint sessions, followed by an hour of intense stretching and pilates immediately folllowed by a half hour shaving of all bodily hair follicles (wind resistance you know-your enemy) should compensate for the lack of a carbon frame and some killer rims.

We'll compare your larger, more competative racing venues with say...a P&Y/B&C animal on a trophy hunt. Sure you may fare well than some others by not adapting with the technology. You may even win an occassional race through nothing other than your intense conditioning, training of the course, and knowledge of your craft but up against another cyclist with the same level of skill but armed with technologically superior components at their disposal, you would be hard pressed to win with any degree of consistency.

An archer shooting a longbow or recurve has more considerations/limitations along with a much longer learning curve in general than the easier, more forgiving, and powerful compound bows churned out today. (I just started shooting a recurve and will not hunt with it this year because I do not feel that my competency is what it should be at this point for hunting game)

You are absolutely right about this forum though Fabs-
We'd still be moaning and griping about the kings, chiefs, etc. or whatever form of polical hierarchy ruled the roost in the Almost Anything Goes forum. Val would still be lassoing gators.

I don't think that rope has changed that much, but who knows? Rocky would still be providing his reloading data from his cave and LilRed would still be ranting about some booger Neanderthal type that made her come to work the quarry on the hunting opener!

[Lilred]

Thanks fellas fer the chins up...went again this am to see nothin all mornin till 11am when i decided to leave..lol...3 does wont 60 yards from the stand...i walked right up on em.

Ya'll already know i aint into all that fancy stuff that people is sellin these days....dont git me started on all that mess...but i do believe that scent-away does help and its worth the 3 bucks fer a spray bottle.

Fabs..i like how you figure yer odds..."iffin you dont hunt alot yer chance of success drops". Very true. But in my lil deformed world...there is such a thing as murpy's law. Here's an example...and i swear..this is a true story. In the hunt club...there was a guy that a member brought over to hunt as a guest for the entire first week of gun. He had already killed 3 or 4 durin loader...but we said nothin. First day he kills a nice 8 pt...but nothin to write home to mama bout. So the 3rd day we figure...this aint right..so they put him on the worst stand on the drive. He then kills a MONSTER 12 pt. While my mouth was collectin flies...he then spurts out..."can one of ya'll check thisun in fer me? i'm outta tags"

now i aint gonna rant on everythin that was wrong with that picture..but ya know what..let's rephrase yer logic there fabs......the more you want somethin...the less likely you are ta gittin it lol and yup..that man was lucky to make it outta there alive that day..lol...at least by some of us...why i quit hunt clubs...too much political bull****

Now..Fabs..uh..well....you dont really shave yer legs do ya? I mean...honest to God...how many mph's can you lose with leg hairs?

[fabsroman]

Okay, I'll start with the most amusing of them all, the shaving of legs. The answer is yes, I still shave my legs, and it isn't for aerodynamics. I really resisted at first, but then decided to start doing so after my first major wreck. Imagine having road rash up and down both legs, both hips, and one arm. Of course, it had to be bandaged up with gauze and tape. If the road rash didn't hurt enough, try peeling all that tape off of legs with hair on them. Wrecking on a bicycle is a lot worse than wrecking at the same speed on a motorcycle because cyclists are only wearing a thin pair of lycra/spandex shorts. I had three really bad wrecks in my 4 years of racing and the worst was behind the White House on the Ellipse. The race was completely flat and it had no corners (i.e., it is an ellipse) and at the rolling start we were going as fast as the pace car which was 35 mph. Heck, me and another guy in the front were drafting the pace car. About lap 4 or 5, I went to fill a gap that was starting to open and another cyclist had the same idea. We both went down and took about 20 guys with us. I had to go to the hospital for that one. After that, I refused to race on any course that was completely flat or without corners, unless it was a time trial.

The other reason for shaving ones legs is for the massages. It sucks to have hairy legs with massage oil all over them on a regular basis. I didn't care too much for the massages, but they were supposed to help remove the "toxins" from my legs.

Now, lets address the luck issue. There is a saying that goes something like this, "I would rather be lucky than good any day" and I think it applies to everything in life. Sometimes, luck can get you something you do not deserve. Sometimes, luck can get you out of a bad situation. However, there is another saying "Chance favors a prepared mind." If you run out of good luck, you had better be prepared or the bad luck will really put you in a hole. The guy in that hunt club was lucky a million different ways. First, he got to hunt without being a member. Next, he just happened to be in the right spot at the right time, which a lot of hunting depends upon.

The first antlered buck I killed was from both luck and being prepared and it is the one described above (i.e., taking the truck to hang the stand). I had seen the buck on the farm the night before and thought about all the shots that could present themselves, so I would be mentally ready. When I saw the deer the next morning, which was the biggest I had seen in my life while hunting, my heart rate didn't even increase, or if it did, I didn't even notice it. I got lucky in having the deer come my way, but the shot was made without any luck involved. My previous shot on a buck was a complete disaster and a pretty unlucky day for me. I had a slow morning and took a shot at a fox. I'll skip the details. I missed the fox, but managed to have the rifle scope knock me senseless and split open my forehead. There was blood everywhere. Went to my dad's stand so he could look it over. He gave me a napkin and said everything would be fine. Well, I went back to my stand, climbed up, and started waiting again. A little while later, I saw an antlered buck walking along the woodline. I had a pretty good shot on him and was going to wait for him to stop right before the fence before I shot him. I was pretty excited. Pulled the trigger and nothing. I forgot to load the gun when I got back in the stand. Sheer stupidity.

As far as the latest and greatest gear is concerned, both in the cycling and the hunting arena, it is a bunch of crap. Yeah, I am buying a new bike to ride, but I am still going to use my old one too. I am going to send the frame out and have it restored and use it for my fair weather days.

Two hunters/cyclists evenly matched in skill will have some things decided by technology and others decided by luck. When I killed my first antlered buck, there was another hunter trying to get a good shot on him from about 250 to 300 yards away. The night before, when I saw him we were coming back from dinner with a bunch of other hunters and two of the guys went out that night with guns looking for him but they never saw him. So, I guess I hot lucky that they didn't see him that night and that the other hunter 250 to 300 yards away didn't pull the trigger before me. That same year, a bow hunter on that same farm was waiting for a 8 pt. to get in range when he heard a rifle shot from another hunter on the farm and saw the 8 pt. collapse. Bowhunter unlucky, rifle hunter lucky.

I went to South Carolina for a 3 day stage race and had some of the worst luck ever. Did pretty well on the time trial on day one. Day two was a 30 mile road race and there were about 10 out of 50 guys left as we approached the line and the first 5 places paid out, and I had a pretty good sprint. I was on the wheel of one guy and he started to unwind the sprint down the left curb. Figured I was going to win the race until some idiot opened a car door that was parked on the grass and we had to stop to avoid wrecking and we watched everybody else blow by us. The next day was a criterium and this time there was about 80 people that started because some of the younger riders were riding up an age category. Anyway, it was about the same result. There were about 15 riders left with 5 laps left and 2 guys had just gone off the front. I was feeling pretty good, so I was going to try to bridge the gap if the pack didn't start reeling them in. With about 3 laps to go and just as I was about to attempt the bridge, I got a flat. My training partner/teammate was behind and he started yelling at me to pick up the pace. When I told him I had a flat and he was on his own, he could not believe it, just as I couldn't. Anyway, they didn't close the gap and nobody bridged the gap, but my training partner won the pack sprint and my sprint was better than his based upon other races and training rides we had been on. I was pissed.

At the end of the day, all of this stuff, hunting, shooting, cycling, fishing, etc. is supposed to be about gun. Yeah, everybody wants to win and everybody wants to get a B&C or P&Y buck, but that is what really kills me. Amateurs want to win bikes races so bad that I have heard that they are using illegal drugs. Hunting used to be done to feed the family, but now it is done to brag about who is better. In the end, it comes down to who has the most money (i.e., can afford the best equipment and to hunt where others cannot) and who is the luckiest, but chance still favors a prepared mind which is why we practice shooting, why we site in our guns, why I train for bike races, etc.

At the end of the day, I think a lot depends on luck in the hunting and fishing sports. We are trying to catch animals that can change their minds at any given moment. The bigger buck you have been watching all off season might decide to get hit by a car or shot by another hunter, or he might decide to stay away from your hunting ground all season.

At the end of the day, I still think more days afield will increase your chances of having good luck, versus buying the best equipment possible and not being in the field. Now, if you can do both, your chance for success really increases. Or, instead of buying the range finder, how about taking some time to shoot 3D with your bow so you learn how to judge distance, but have fun while learning.

[Lilred]

LOL...Fabs you did real good with that post...and yer right bout the luck thing..and I agree wholeheartedly. That is why we all git out there every chance we git and prepare ourselves the best we can. While the story was true..what I say is full of sarcasm dear. I sit there typin that...and laughin like a hyena the whole time. It's meant to poke fun at life in general...cause iffin ya take it to seriously...yer bout in as bad shape as Burnside at Chancellorsville.
Meantime..I'm fixin ta hit the sack and take another stab at it tomorrow am..ya never know...I might git a 12pter to beat his.

[Steverino]

Fabs,

I'm just playing devils advocate here buddy and knowing that you're an attorney, am figuring that you won't mind.

I'll start with the most amusing: "The other reason for shaving ones legs is for the massages. It sucks to have hairy legs with massage oil all over them on a regular basis. I didn't care too much for the massages, but they were supposed to help remove the "toxins" from my legs" I have no response for this!

"Yeah, I am buying a new bike to ride, but I am still going to use my old one too. I am going to send the frame out and have it restored and use it for my fair weather days." The question is, which bike do you honestly think that you will be utilizing for the majority of your competative racing and why? Yeah, I still have my first compound bow that I practice with religiously and am proficient with to bring with as a back-up on all of my hunts, but I still utilize my newest bow because it has some better updated features that I plain just prefer and seem to perform better with.

"At the end of the day, I still think more days afield will increase your chances of having good luck, versus buying the best equipment possible and not being in the field" Absolutely agree with you 100% on this common sense point Fabs. Anytime that you are in the field, regardless of your equipment and or level of skill/knowledge, you increase your odds of success.

"Or, instead of buying the range finder, how about taking some time to shoot 3D with your bow so you learn how to judge distance, but have fun while learning." Some very good advice of which I have done periodically as part of my regular practice sessions. While this does help some and certainly brings value to ones hunting repetoire, it is not a replacement for the demands of real hunting situations. Hunters can and routinely do pace off known distances to predetermined objects from their stands during daylight hours on terrain that they are familiar and/or can make reasonably good estimates from say their experience shooting 3D. Now take a bowhunter that is hunting on unfamiliar land, say as a guest of a buddy, and is shown to an area where they are climbing up a tree at 4:00am in the pitch blackness of dense woods. As day breaks and an animal proceeds through an opening on the shadows of a forest floor a ways away, I'd sure like the confidence of knowing for certain as to the distance. Can you guestimate from your experience and wing a shot? Sure, but why would you take the chance on choosing the wrong pin when you don't have to when the technology is there to be used? This is not meant solely for trophy animals either but your "meat" kills as well.

I hear what you're saying about choosing technology over skills (and I think more about the quantity of time afield which to most of us, is a precious, limited commodity) but there is technology available that helps us in our pursuits that we all use in some form or another, whether we would like to admit it or not. Perhaps we use these as crutches in one way or another to compensate but hunters are far more successful afield now as a result of this (as well as much better understanding of their quarry)

It interests me that as hunters, and I'm going through this myself, that as skills are learned from modern technology, there is a gravitation back towards more primitive/traditional methods of taking game because of the self imposed challenges. I began rifle hunting in high school, then shotgunning, and gradually began archery with modern compound bows. I have begun shooting traditional recurves and flintlock muzzleloaders now as well (and will hopefully be hunting with both next season as I improve)

[fabsroman]

I don't mind you playing devil's advocate. At the end of the day, we probably both agree about this entire thing.

Regarding which bike I will use mostly for racing, the answer is "I do not know." The carbon fiber frame I am buying cannot be repaired, so if I wreck it, I have to throw it away and it costs $2,500. However, the old steel frame I have can be repaired, but the components for it are not made anymore. I just finished buying some components for it on e-bay, and those weren't cheap either. In the end, I'll probably race the new bike and hope I don't crash it, or buy another carbon fiber frame that costs $3,000 that allows for individual tubes to be replaced.

As far as hunting goes, it is truly a sport that every hunter approaches differently. About 6 years ago, I used to be all about filling the back of my truck with birds or deer. I always wanted to kill a limit when I went out. I don't feel that way anymore. Yeah, it is great to shoot a lot of birds or deer, and it sometimes adds to the fun, but there were occassions when I shot my limit and still didn't have a great time. Now, the only reason I like to shoot a limit is so that my dog can retrieve something. After I shoot my limit, I try to work with the dog as others continue to try to fill their limits. I used to bow hunt a decent amount, but haven't really had the time over the past couple of years. I wanted to get back into it this year, but still could not find the time. Such is life.

The question is "Do we use the best technology we can to ensure that we make a clean kill, or do we leave some of the technology at home to make the hunt more challenging?" Should I take the 20 gauge hunting instead of the 12. How about using 3" shells on waterfowl instead of 3 1/2".