Howcome ?

[Zazu45]

Hi guys.
I recently shot a few patterns thru the "UNDERTAKER" with BB's and T shot. Results were not too bad , but nothing to jump up and down.
One more question bothers me, everybody say that speed is very important with steel shot and still when I look at what companies offer they are many loads in 1300fps or less.
Even the big 10ga. wich many say is much superior to the 12ga. shows some pretty conventional speeds.
I understand that as the shot gets bigger they can hold speed better being heavier but how slow can you go?
So my question is :what should be the minimum speed one should consider depending on shot size?

[fabsroman]

Was that done at 40 yards? If so, it isn't too bad. Not great, but not too bad either. Steel is supposed to pattern tighter than lead, but not as tight as Hevi. If that is the best pattern you can get with that load, I think I would try some others out to see if they can do better.

[tjwatty]

Minimum speed? Wow, now that's a tough one.

I used 1 3/8 oz. Winchester steel #2's for years, I believe they were 1350fps and was completely convinced they were the best. The last couple of years I have played with the faster loads and now I like the 1550fps loads from Federal, I still like #2's for most of my waterfowl but have found the 1 1/4oz. loads give me more killing power and I haven't missed that other 1/8 oz.
My turkey loads I still use my trap load with #6 lead, 1150fps. I shoot from a tent blind and have never shot a bird farther than 30yards so big loads just seem to be over kill. With that said I bought a box of 3.5 mag. 6's this year but apparently the turkeys knew I did and stayed away. I might even go and pattern some before next year, smart thing to do, but hay, I've never been accused of that too much.

back to the Minimum thing, I don't think I would want to get to slow with waterfowl loads, them ducks and geese are pretty tough and speed does kill.

[Zazu45]

Sorry, actually that was only one of the loads I tried.
This next picture shows three different steel loads and one lead for reference.
no.1: Winchester Super double X 3in. mag. 1 7/8oz BB (lead)
no.2: Winchester Expert 3in.mag. 1 3/8 oz. no.2 (steel)
no.3: Win. Supremes 3in.mag. 1 1/4 oz. BB (steel)
no.4: Win. Super X "Drylock" 3in.mag. 1 1/4oz. "T" (steel)
Ammunition availability in my area, has limited me to Winchester ammo so far. I intend to try something else soon.

[skeet]

Wouldn't it be great if you could use that load #1?? That is a pretty good pattern. I also notice that a couple of the steel pattens seem to have a hole low center actually probably just shoots a little higher than the lead any way. The T pattern looks skimpy but remember the load only has about 60-65 pellet so the pattern isn't really that bad. When the choke is made for larger pellets in steel it won't pattern smaller any where as well as the larger. The larger pellets need a little bit of fudge room so they can squeeze through the choke where the smaller shot has a little more ...well liquidity is a fair word and you can use a bit ighter choke for the smaller sizes. Still every now and then one will pop up and surprise ya. As far as speed with steel they found out in the first couple of years that traditional speeds did not kill as well with steel. So after a lot of work they got the speeds up to where steel kills somewhat better. But even fast steel will never really kill as well as lead or the heavy hi tech stuff. The new hi tech stuff and lead just kills consistently beter that steel from close to long range. Even with that ..shots at waterfowl should be kept inside 50 yds for the average hunter. We even had some pits in the past that we used a 150 ft rope on to make sure we kept the decoys inside of 50 yds. 50 yds is a long way.

[Zazu45]

How do #2 steel perform on geese, looks like it would be a great wing breaker when driven at 1400fps.+
By the way the patchiness of those patterns remind me of what I got once from a bad batch of lead (too soft).
the patterns were simply ugly from my BPS full choke barrel, the cure was using my modified one instead.
With the mod. choke the patterns were tight and even, but with the full I was getting about half the shot in a tight cluster with the rest scattered all around.
Since the "UNDERTAKER" has a .030 constriction, makes me wonder if it's not a bit too tight ?

[fabsroman]

#2 steel on geese isn't very good unless you shoot them in the heads or the wings, or you are shooting small geese. Anything smaller than BB steel here on greater Canada geese will result in a lot of wounded birds unless you are shooting them at 10 yards. I never use #2 steel when goose hunting because I never know how far the birds will come in.

[skeet]

Take heed to what Fabs says. If you know they are gonna be inside 30 yds all the time it'll work. There is only one way of knowing that in a normal hunting field and it ain't quite legal. BB's are much better as an all around shot for geese. BBB and T are better....and I have personally observed #2 steel drifting more than 3 ft at 30 yds in the winter winds we quite often see while waterfowling. First time I saw that I was amazed!!

[tjwatty]

I've killed geese with #2's before, only because I grabbed the wrong gun or forgot to change. (magazine lockouts only work as good as the dummy holding it.)
Skeet, that drift thing is amazing, especially with a newbie on the bow of the boat, big waves and high wind chasing cripples. I've had them go through the better part of a box of shells before they listen, great comedy though.
In just the right light conditions, standing behind a shooter you can actually see the curve, makes a major leage curve ball pitcher jealous.

[Zazu45]

Yesterday, for the sake of comparison, I went and did a few patterns using the factory Mod. choke.
Results ? Exact same patterns as with the "Undertaker" but MUCH more even pellet distribution. Percentage did not vary more than 2% . Actualy, the "T" shot did about 5% better with the mod. but that could be a fluke.
Makes me wonder why I spent money on a new choke in the first place ?

[skeet]

We always spend a little here and there we don't or didn't need to spend. It is in our nature to buy more stuff cause what we want will always(almost) work better. Again the patterns you are shooting are static patterns and aren't even close to what you will see in the field. Pay attention to what TJ said in his previous post. In the field the wind and water and other factors such as the crossing angle of the bird etc will affect the actual usable patten. That is one of the reasons we try to set decoys and blind sites so we are going to get straight in coming shots. TJ is right..the most important thing to learn is to shoot in the field. If you see the equipment just isn't cutting it out there then ya go to a(the) backup plan...even if ya don't have one. Being a "successful" waterfowler means that you have to be innovative and willing to try new stuff. Use the factory chokes and if unhappy with the undertaker put it on ebay. May take a slight loss but better than having something you don't like or have a need for. Being innovative goes somewhat like this. Had a party out hunting and the geese would set up and turn off at the last second... so I got the party out of the pit...moved all the decoys except 4 upwind 40 yds. Kept 4 near the pit and flagged the geese from there. Next 3 bunches we limited out with shots of about 15 yds. Didn't look right but in that circumstance it worked. Other times too. Always think above the curve. Equipment isn't the key in hunting...that little thing between our ears is!

Hey TJ..watching shot in the air is kind of easy but only as you say...from the right angle. When shooting skeet or teaching my students..I try to stay at the right spot so I can see the shot. At least then I do know where they miss. The only one that is hard to see is the 410. Also best against a light grey sky.

[fabsroman]

Zazu,

They got you. There is so much equipment out there that is the "best". Like you, I wonder sometimes about my patternmaster choke. It is terrible on small steel and not really that good on big steel. If I get a chance to pattern it again, I am going to do so. Honestly, I am tempted to go back to the modified choke that came with the Benelli SBE. It killed hundreds, maybe thousands of geese. In fact, I have no idea why I bought the Patternmaster, other than that I was at a hunting show and I had money burning a hole in my wallet.

I am sure that I bought a lot of stuff that really wasn't worth it. That is what is great about ebay. It can now be sold to somebody else that has money burning a hole in his/her wallet.

[tjwatty]

Skeet,
Through the years I've watched everything from machine gun rounds to 105 howitzer rounds and it never fails to amaze me. I often question what I'm seeing because rarely do I see shot on the hits, only the misses. I begin to wonder if I'm seeing the wad more than the shot but then at times I'll pick up both. I seem to be a freak with the guys I shoot with because I'm the only one who see's it. I'm glad you do too, makes me think I'm not the only one.
Most of our skeet shooters shoot .410 or 28ga. some 20ga. I'm the only cannon shooter (12ga) but I shoot 1 oz or 3/4oz loads to keep them happy. I have a 12ga. loader and those little gauges are just too dang expensive to shoot all the time. Even the empty 28ga are bringing 10 cents per. and with the price of gas now it's hard to justify going to the range 3 times a week.