June Fir,Fish,Game - Bridgers trashed traditional & PRB

[rattus58]

Hi Dom,

Germany.... when you have the chance, please pass on a little about the hunting there.

Yes here in Hawaii we have a lot of choices for hunting including the spear. You don't see too much of it anymore, but during the second world war, that was the only way you could go hunting for many people as they confiscated all weapons from households of everyone. So much for second amendment with the military.

I have seen people with atlatls here as well, but I have not actually seen any harvest from one.

We have very liberal almost all year round archery hunting in many areas here in Hawaii, same as with dogs for pigs.

Aloha....

[Skinny Shooter]

My head is spinning trying to read and comprehend everything in this thread.
Here in Pa, our Flintlock (read primitive) season was made for a group of traditionalists to hunt after the orange army left the woods with their more modern weapons. Some of these folks dressed the part from the colonial past and are re-enactors as am I. During that season the woods are quiet and the sense of solitude is something you can't get during any other deer season. Not to mention more safe from stray bullets.
Now crossbows are allowed which I disagree with in principle. They already can be used in the early muzzleloader season and rifle season. During both Archery seasons, crossbows are also allowed in 3 WMU's
Why put them in the flintlock season? It may be part of the PGC's idea of exterminating a vast portion of our Doe population to "control" their numbers.

In-lines may load from the muzzle but the comparison mostly ends there. They are an updated caplock so to speak and hence have been modernized.
When was the last time anyone heard someone using an inline with PRB. I've never heard of it, hunters use the updated more modern projectiles.
In-lines can be used in the early muzzleloader season and rifle seasons. Good for them.
But a precedent has been set when crossbows were allowed in the flintlock season. It won't be long till every season is called "Anything Goes" season.

There are numerous opportunities throught fall and early winter to hunt deer before Flintlock rolls around.
Sure hope the PGC recognizes that some people value their heritage and hunting similiar to our ancestors.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I asked you in my prior post of May 30, 2007, about paragraph 4,"Do you think crossbows should be legal in the 6-week PA archery deer season?" I think the crossbow is a bow and should be permitted in the archery deer season. A crossbow is more akin to a bow than a muzzleloader, in my view; not many muzzleloaders shoot arrows (bolts). Also, both are short-range arms compared to a rifled flinter.

As for your flintlock question, my view is that if it is LEGAL in our (PA) after-Christmas deer season, then use it.

We have distinct seasons here and I am glad we have the several weeks after Christmas for Flintlock arms, only.

Adam

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I see you like definitions and say all muzzleloaders should be allowed in the same season because they load from the muzzle. Well, there are differences more apparent that your reasons for claiming "A crossbow is not a bow." You think a crossbow is properly included in muzzleloader seasons.

I appreciate you good natured banter here and hope you are not offended by my analogies.

A crossbow is a bow like any other bow in more ways than your "merely loading from the muzzle" criteria you apply to flintlocks, inlines, and caplocks. First, both verticle bows and crossbows use arrows, broadheads, the arrow (bolt) is propelled by a string, has fletchings and nockts. Both are short-range arms and use limbs to store the propulsion force for the arrows. With ALL those SIMILARITIES, you still refuse to consider the crossbow a bow? Why?

I still maintain that crossbows in PA belong in the 6-week archery deer season and should not require the user to buy a muzzleloader tag.

I also maintain that Traditional muzzleloader seasons are specifically for traditional arms. We used to have a week traditional ML in October, but that is now open to any ML.

The original question was about inlines and they have their place in the modern rifle season, in my opinion which I express to the PGC.

Be well,

Adam

[skeet]

Seems to me that Rattus ignores all the similarities between the crossbow and the conventional bow just because it doesn't suit him. Not dissing him...but the facts speak for themselves. He is into the NBEF and their definition doesn't include the crossbow...so it has to be some other kind of implement. It surely isn't any kind of firearm. He also ignores the corporate sponsorship issue by just saying it isn't pertinent, I guess. Maybe he doesn't understand sponsorship ideas..although I am sure he does as he writes and argues well. Except for ignoring the truth about bows and how they all shoot as you so aptly described.

Rattus, I am sure you realize, when you read most of the hunting/fishing/archery/gun magazines, that the advertisers in the magazines get pretty good write ups on their products. That is hardcore sponsorship and advertising. The sponsorship of organizations such as the NBEF is softcore...but it pushes the company's agenda just the same. Come on man. It is apparent you aren't stupid...even if you don't accept the truth in some matters. And I still agree with you that there is really NO difference between muzzleloaders. Heck for all intents and purposes the Sharps muzzleloaders were inlines..so were Colt Revolving rifles. Seems to me that the traditional muzzleloader users feel they are competing(that word again) with inline shooters and they must feel they or the arms they carry are inferior. I can tell ya one thng..if ol Jim Bridger had a chance to use one of the newer style inlines way back in the 1830 or 40 era..He woulda jumped on it like a duck on a junebug!

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I was at a meeting a while back and a bowhunter organization guy started speaking about why crossbows require being classified with muzzleloaders. He went on about how there was NO similiarity with compounds, recurves, etc. and thus crossbows should be listed with muzzleloaders.

An old guy stood up and asked if the crossbows use a #209 cap or a #11 cap or 5 grains of 4F priming powder in their "pans", being muzzleloaders and all? The entire room burst out laughing and the bow guy did not reply.

I think there IS a difference between muzzleloaders. Yes, all load from the muzzle, but a day in hard rain with a flintlock is far less reliable for the shot than a #11 cap or a #209 shotgun primer in a closed-bolt inline. I have hunted with them all and have an opinion on which is the more reliable in inclement weather.

Adam

[skeet]

I liked that alot. That guy cut the argument to the quick for certain. And of course a crossbow is a bow in all of the important aspects. Anyone that argues otherwise surely has some type of bias towards them. I also know there is a big difference in the muzzleloaders reliabilities. Of course a flinter will not be as reliable in bad weather. Had one and it was a bear to use. I also know the reasons that the traditionalists in Pa feel the way they do...but you have to admit that the season wasn't set up just to provide muzzleloading hunters a chance to use their flintlocks..It was set up so people could have another season to hunt deer. The state, in it's ignorance, decided that the hunters had to use a Flinter...almost all the other states seasons were set up to use any muzzleloader. There were inline rifles way back in the 19th century...as well as underhammer rifles. The whole reason for the season is to be able to hunt. Let the traditionalists do it their way and the modernists do it theirs. The differences really aren't all the much different than the bow hunting crowds..longbows to recurves(with sights) to compounds with sights and releases, overdraws etc and the ultra modern 90% let offs with all the bells and whistles. Still though at the end of the day...a muzzleloader is just that..a muzzleloader...and a bow is a bow as long as it throws a stick with a string using limbs. And again...if the ol mountain men had the chance to use a modern inline...they woulda jumped at the chance without lookin back. Now days all the different kinds of primitive (even inlines) are used for a HUNTING season.

BTW Adam, I have talked to a lot of people who hunt with the flintlocks in Pa. It comes out that a lot of them seem to be mad over the fact that the flinter season is late and all the "best" deer are gone. I've actually heard the same arguments in Md from the firearm hunters...complaining that most of the big deer are killed earlier by the bow hunters and the early muzzloader season! And to answer the last statement you made about reliability in bad weather just don't hunt in a hard rain...or if able to..use a caplock or inline when that type of day pops up. Admit that you won't hunt any differently..you'll just use a more efficient arm for the conditions. And I'll bet if you do bag a deer...it won't be at any different range than normal...you are after all an ethical hunter! I've read your posts and can tell.

[rattus58]

I love the way skeet and Adam Helmer like to think for me. They have neatly put me into THEIR OWN PERCEPTIONS of things because I might in fact disagree with them, which I have yet to state my own preference because no one has asked it.

Further, I like that because Easton Aluminum, some couple of magazines and a camo manufacturer SUPPORT BOWHUNTER EDUCATION, that all of a sudden there is a conspiracy. I wish people would stick to the facts instead of making **** up.

For the record... and its really apparent that neither SKEET nor ADAM HELMER actually did any research into the NBEF or IHEA nor the sportsman's alliance, yet they have both attributed to me positions that neither can point to in that no one has asked me what my position is on any of this, and that the positions that I have stated are those of the organizations responsible for making the recommendations to most if not ALL game departments.

It doesn't matter WHAT YOU THINK Adam in that a crossbow is more bow than muzzleloader. Nice try. I think that both you and SKEET should do some research first.

Since when can a bow be fired with one hand? Since when can you draw a bow with a crank without expending more than just a few ounces of energy? Since when can a bow be held indefinitely without mechanical aid... These are the criteria for an archery season in most if not ALL states.

Two. You say that a muzzleloader doesn't shoot a bolt... that is only because you would choose not to. I have seen more than one ramrod make it downrange... some with phenomenal accuracy as well.

A cross bow is powered by bow limbs. That's true. But that doesn't by itself make it a bow an arrow by definition. It remains cocked mechanically. So to does your muzzleloader. A bow, by definition requires two hands.. one to hold the bow, and the other to draw. A bow by definition may not use any mechanical aid to maintain full draw. That is the definition of a bow. No matter how much one tries to bastardize this with ones own yearnings, you have to lobby the game departments, the NBEF and the IHEA in order to change the definition... no matter how much you want it to be so.

Because a crossbow can be cocked and held mechanically, and for some reason actually looks more like a firearm than a bow to most observers, and has the characteristics of a firearm which the bow does not, game departments relegate it to a firearms season. That really is the end of the story.

Getting back to the reliability factors between muzzleloaders... and getting back to the quote one of you said about patched round balls not being fired out of an inline, never mind that the statement itself is flawed, what does that have to do with anything?

A crossbow and a bow have really no similarities other than the bow limbs and theoretically the bolt. Its not drawn the same, fired the same, not carried in the field the same, and looks more like a rifle to the untrained eye and if one is without counsel asked... does this look more like a bow and arrow or a rifle.. will in well over half the time (probably better than than 80% is more likely) will tell you a crossbow looks like a rifle.

So.. game departments wanted to accomodate, put the crossbow in with muzzleloaders or short range weapons... what is the problem with that?

Muzzleloaders... they ALL load from the muzzle do they not?

They all require a separate source of ignition do they not?

They all have locks, stocks and barrels... do they not? Tell me.. what makes the inline different in function than a flintlock or caplock?

I say again... if a crossbow can be equated with a bow by you folks, then a flintlock should be equated with a single shot centerfire... and it is a much more related piece of equipment.

And lastly... before you both start attributing things to me, you better ask me first. Something both of you seem to have ignored, though I repeatedly referenced that fact earlier... obviously you two are too busy making up my mind for me.

Aloha...

[Skinny Shooter]

Skeet, the way I understand it, Flintlock season was set-up just so traditionalists (the guys who lobbied the PGC for that opportunity) can use their flintlocks. Not for just another opportunity to hunt.
If that were the case, I suspect the PGC would have long ago diluted the flintlock-only regulation with other types of arms to hunt with.
I get that info from Chuck Dixon at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop. He's pretty much in the know when it comes to that stuff.

Archery season encompasses all types of archery equipment. It is not just a recurve or compound season.
Our Flintlock season is just that, flintlocks only. Or it used to be.
The early season is called muzzleloader season and almost anything goes...

There was a time when I wished for a flintlock season that was during warmer weather and had more deer opportunities. But then began to realize it was all about the experience, not just the killing. But that's just my opinion.
The after-Christmas season is just fine now because we mostly have the woods to ourselves.

As to bad weather and reliability of a flinter, well that's the mystique of it all.

[rattus58]

Hi Skinny... That is where distinctions are properly made.

FLintlock Only seasons, Black Powder Only, seasons, like Idaho tried recently... with there visible or exposed rotating hammer provisions... and such...

But neither Adam nor anyone else has answered me about the availablility of the RNC Accusporter Flintlock... a custom flinter with a soupled up engine.... for the PA seasons...

Aloha...

[skeet]

The way I understand the Pa season for flinters was this way. If I remember correctly there was no muzzleloader season at all when the season was set up. The PGC set up a season at the behest of muzzle loading afficianados..not flintlock people per se. And the PGC set it up with input from many sources but eventually deciding on flinters only either from a lack of good information as to what primitive firearms were or from a somewhat vindictive attitude because the idea had not come from the PGC itself but was foisted on it by someone else. Other states at the time were setting up muzzleloader seasons. The PGC(and you know how controlling they have always been) almost had to do a season for muzzleloaders...and vindictively set it up for Flinters only...thinking to keep the numbers of hunters to a lower level. Didn't seem to work as the ol boys went to work what they had to use with vigor. I'm really proud of 'em for that. The PGC still has a bit too much control without listening to the average joe hunter. I hear the rumblings from Pa...from places other than this board. Even Petey has decried the things that the board has done to hurt the deer population in Pa. As far as changing the rules on the flintlock only seaon..you are correct in stating that the flintlock users have kept the season they prefer. But even the PGC saw the handwriting on the wall as there were no percussion arms allowed at one time. That changed obviously in the not so distant past...mainly because of public pressure. The way the season is now at least covers the basics of both groups

Rattus..I attribute nothing to you. Your distinctions speak for themselves. I did not state there is any great conspiracy among the bow hunting crowds or the NBEF or any other organization. You can point to the things that make a crossbow so different than a conventional bow...but fail to miss the differences in muzzleloading firearms. It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions. Expand the parameters of your mind and see that the main and really only thing that matters in all my discussion here is that no matter what kind of arm you choose to use.... It's all about the hunting opportunity to me. Flame away all y'all want but I'm done with this thread. As with the anti gun and anti hunting crowds...you can't argue with a closed mind. No matter how large or how small

[rattus58]

Ok... well first of all Skeet... lets look at what you have said right here... Rattus..I attribute nothing to you. Your distinctions speak for themselves. I did not state there is any great conspiracy among the bow hunting crowds or the NBEF or any other organization. You can point to the things that make a crossbow so different than a conventional bow...but fail to miss the differences in muzzleloading firearms. It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions. Expand the parameters of your mind and see that the main and really only thing that matters in all my discussion here is that no matter what kind of arm you choose to use.... It's all about the hunting opportunity to me. Flame away all y'all want but I'm done with this thread. As with the anti gun and anti hunting crowds...you can't argue with a closed mind. No matter how large or how small"

You say... "Your" distinctions speak for themselves. Where in this thread ANYWHERE Skeet have I mentioned, as you and Adam have repeatedly, ever said that IN MY OPINION such and such was so.... NO WHERE PAL... I have repeatedly asked you to ask my opinion, you don't, and you don't even in this last post... You are ASSUMING way to much... and when you ASSume things it makes you look foolish especially when you keep doing it over and over.

Oh... the conspiracy.... listen to you.... If you didn't think it was such a big deal, why do you bring up over and over? Do you in fact Skeet EVEN KNOW what the NBEF and the IHEA really are?

You go on again to say that " It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions". What are MY PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS Skeet? Here you are ASSuming again, and you know what that produces don't you... "global warming".. shame on you.

I'm not doing any flaming Skeet, and when you talk about a closed mind, its OBVIOUS that yours is like a steel trap. Everything actually that you have accused me of Skeet is something that you seem to fabricate in your own mind... SO IN THE INTEREST OF ACCURACY SKEET before you run off like a spoilt child, just point out a couple of comments where I have said that any of this is MY OPINION? Where is anything I have published or written here not directly attributed to the NBEF, IHEA, NBEP? These are facts Skeet... and most if not ALL game departments get their insights from these organizations when it comes to ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.. including crossbows.

Oh... back to conspiracy... none of the sponsors of BOWHUNTING EDUCATION have EVER in my limited experience, ever spoke out against a crossbow. Easton is the preeminent manufacture of bolts for the cross bow. Bowsite and the other mags and the camo place... have never in my understanding, which of course is much more limited than yours is as I don't have your hunting experience or expertise, but I have never read anything anywhere against crossbows by those folks... but you OBVIOUSLY have a much wider view than I.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

PLEASE reread my posts to you of June 1, 2007. I asked you questions you have continued to ignore. Ok, that is fine. You keep saying, "No one asked me my opinion." Ok, so reread the QUESTIONS, please?

Rest assured I NEVER have tried to "think for you." Please give me specifics per you last post. Send me a PM, if you have ANY ISSUES with me or other posters. If you cannot be conversational, then perhaps you need to take a break as you really seem to be quite emotional on this subject.

I think your biggest problem is your bowhunter organization's ARTIFICIAL definition of crossbows as "Muzzleloaders." I have seen it here in PA where the Bowhunters are LIVID that crossbows are allowed in their CHERISHED 6-week archery season. Well, DISABLED PA hunters may use crossbows in archery season and there are 3 (urban) PA WMUs that permit crossbows.

You are AGAIN in error when you just stated, "Neither Adam nor anyone else has answered me about the availability of the RNC Accusporter Flintlock for the PA seasons." PLEASE READ MY POST OF JUNE 1, 2007 5:10 P.M. I refer you back to that post where I stated, "As for your flintlock question, my view is if it is LEGAL in our (PA) after-Christmas season , then use it." Did you read that post? If so, why DO you continue to post "no one answered my question about the Accusporter Flintlock?" Do you want an answer or a continuing argument? Do you have reading comprehension?

I request you go back and reread posts BEFORE you go off "half-cocked" and slam me or other posters on this site! Your next slam on me or other posters will not be tolerated! I really think you need to "chill out" a bit. Send me a PM and I will chat with you off line, IF there is a need. You have been given complete responses that only seem to further fuel your ire, as I see your past posts. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension because you keep repeating questions already answered? I hope you do not have a problem with contray opinions by other posters. This is a CHAT site where ALL opinions are aired. Please give it another try. If you cannot chat, please send me a PM with the reasons therefor.
Aloha

Adam

[rattus58]

Adam... the NBEF IS NOT MY ORGANIZATION... again... you are reading into things... I TEACH BOWHUNTING EDUCATION. I teach Hunter Education. I am also an NRA instructor in rifle, pistol, shotgun and muzzleloader, I am an NMLRA Field Representative and Instructor. These organizations have their own rules and regulations. They are NOT MINE. I am in the process of giving YOU and anyone else who would care to look at it... MY OPINIONS ON JUST THAT QUESTION OF YOURS... do I think crossbows should be in the Pennsylvania Archery Season. But the short story is, and the Pennsylvania FISH AND GAME looked to the NBEF most likely, Crossbows are permitted in Pennsylvania in several units apparently during the archery season from what I read online from the Pa website, but might require a muzzleloader tag BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A CROSSBOW TAG PRINTED UP. They consider the crossbow separate from the bow.

Do I care Adam.... No I don't. Should you care... well maybe you should.. it apparently is your state... not mine.

Do I care if Crossbows are legal in my state? NO I don't... and I don't care either if they are legal in the Archery Season. They are not legal to hunt with in Hawaii unless you are disabled. We are trying to change that next year. If it means they start being in the firearms seasons... that's ok by me... whatever .. they are a valid hunting implement and should be allowed somewhere.

It looks like the only place me an skeet agree over the long run, is that hunting is a personal thing. You are picking the arm you hunt with. What anyone else hunts with is IRRELEVANT.

If I missed reading one of your posts in this thread, I apologize... I didn't see it. I don't like being MISCHARACTERIZED either.

For the rest of this feel free to look to a new thread I started of MY OPINIONS... that will leave no doubts as to my OPINIONS.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I do not understand why you posted in your last post, "Adam the NBEF IS NOT MY ORGANIZATION...again, you are reading into things." WHAT IS YOUR REASON FOR THIS ERROR? What was the date and time I allegedly posted that?

WHEN have I EVER said the NBEF was YOUR organization? Also, there is NO PA Fish&Game as you posted.

I think you really need to take a "Time Out." This was not a rational post by you, in my humble opinion.

Aloha

Adam