Crossbows and Compounds

[rattus58]

Being that I shoot a recurve and longbow, I was quite surprised by the response I got from some about introducing crossbows for hunting in Hawaii. One organization I got a response from was the professional bowhunters society from their "Anti-Crossbow" Chair in fact, Mark L. Scott.

The more I researched (crossbows are illegal in Hawaii right now) the more I found a lot of incongruity of their position, as well as the positions of NBEF and IHEA on the topic.

My b i t c h comes from the arguments I have received from these organizations about crossbows, without them addressing that compared to a recurve, a compound bow is no different than a crossbow for HUNTING.

Any comments on this?

Aloha...

[multibeard]

In Michigan the bow hunters are so parinoid about the thought of cross bows becoming legal it is pathetic. The only way one can be used during archery deer season at the present time is if the user has an 80% disability in a shoulder. That takes jumping thriough hoops to get a permit.

They are legal for anyone during the firearm deer season.

The idea of letting any one over the age of 65 having the choice of using one has been brought up. You should have heard the up roar out of the archers. It was deafening.

They could care less about there elders being able to spend time in the woods as they are worried about some one else shooting THEIR deer.

[skeet]

It's all about the people(bowhunters etc) wanting the woods to themselves. They just don't want to admit that some of the compounds they shoot are right up there with crossbows. They have an elitist agenda and don't care about anything or anyone else. A crossbow is just what the name implies..a type of bow... No matter what the NBEF or any other archery group may say. They have no more range than a compound or recurve...maybe less in fact and they are much slower to shoot...with way too much movement to not scare even an unalerted deer. In fact in the hands of a good archer the compound or recurve may even be more accurate. I do remember the uproar...yes there was one even though there were not anywhere near as many bowhunters...when the compound came on the scene. They were not considered legal in some states for a while. Sheesh...They shouldn't be lumped in with muzzleloaders either. Not even close to the efficiency of even a flinter

[Rustywreck]

There is one huge difference between a crossbow and a compound: You still have to draw a compound bow, while a crossbow is already cocked and loaded.

Bowhunters, whether compound or recurve, are often busted by game while the hunter is trying to draw the bow. A crossbow eliminates that important step.

Crossbows for elderly and/or handicap, but leave it there.

[skeet]

But it's still a bow and not such a good one either. The average person will still stay with a compound or recurve as they are more accurate quicker for a second(or third) shot. If you want to be elitist..then get rid of the 80% and more letoff compounds and the releases and the overdraws and sights. The trouble I have with most of the elitist bowhunters is they want to group the crossbow with a muzzleloader. There is really no comparison and most bow shooters know it. They think they will be put at a disadvantage "competing" with or against crossbow shooters. The crossbow in the hands of the average shooter is slower and probably not as accurate as the bowhunter with compounds with all the bells and whistles. As I said...it's still a bow just as a muzzleloader is just that...no matter what kind of powder or ball it shoots. If the person feels they are at a disadvantage because of the equipment they use...then he's really not such a great hunter anyway at least in his own mind. It ain't us against them you know. It is about enjoying the hunt. The more people we have on the hunting side means there is less chance of the anti's taking it away from us. We ARE a minority of the population, remember!

[rattus58]

Originally posted by Feathermax
There is one huge difference between a crossbow and a compound: You still have to draw a compound bow, while a crossbow is already cocked and loaded.

Bowhunters, whether compound or recurve, are often busted by game while the hunter is trying to draw the bow. A crossbow eliminates that important step.

Crossbows for elderly and/or handicap, but leave it there.

Feathermax, I don't know if you are a compound, recurve or longbow shooter, but after the research I've done on crossbows recently something struck me right between the eyes.

One of the arguments used against the crossbow is that you don't have to draw it. Well that might be true, but the same can be said of the compound. I didn't know this till recently, but most compounds are shipped today with an 80% letoff module. This means that a 60 pound compound has a holding weight of 12 pounds.

This 12 pound holding weight is something most shooters can maintain at full draw for minutes on end. Here we are talking about hunting, not target shooting, so how much different is this than a crossbow? Virtually indistinguishable in the field, especially with a wrist attached trigger release.

When you consider that I have to maintain my actual draw weight and some crossbow shooter only has to hold 12, how much different is that compared to a crossbow as far as I'm concerned? Virtually no difference at all, so I'm confused as to why compound shooters are so paranoid about crossbows? They've had a superior advantage over recurve and longbow shooters for years.

As far as I'm concerned, having crossbows in our season isn't going to make any difference to me.

Aloha...

[Rustywreck]

Granted the let-off on compounds is a big advantage of a compound over a traditional bow; but, you still need to go through the motion of drawing the bow.

Compound and traditional bows share at least one common attribute: They need to be drawn at the moment of the shot. Crossbows do not. They can be drawn and locked hours in advance of the shot.

With the aid of shooting stick or a rest they function more like a rifle than a bow, heck with some crossbows I've seen the noise is even comparible to a rifle.

Not wanting crossbows involved in the archery season isn't about arrow speed, accuracy, or an unfair advantage. The technological advances in compound bows over the last decade or two has been astonishing. Once crossbows become universally incorporated into the archery season, and the market drives technological advancements in them, there's no telling where it will go.

You guys talk about compound shooters being elietist, saying that compound hunters want the woods to themselves. Well, of course one of the lures of bowhunting is the fewer number of hunters in the woods, but there is more to it than just that.

That same lure is available to everyone, at least in Wisconsin. Learn to shoot a bow (traditional or compound). If you are 65 or older, or have some disability get a crossbow permit.

[wrenchman]

my brotherinlay has cross bow permit he killed more deer with his bow hands down.
many complain you dont have to draw well you need more room to bring up a cross bow and there is more that gets in the way
a cross bow is much larger to bring it up to shoot is more movement most guys have there bow just hanging out in front of them.
kentucky and ohio let cross bow hunters hunt the same time as bow and they dont kill any more deer then a bow hunter.
I dont cross bow hunt and have no desire but to tell some one they cant hunt a certain way becouse i might not like it is hypocritical as long as it does not impact the deer or me.

[rattus58]

Hi Feathermax... My question to you is going to be here in two parts. First, I want to compare the compound to the recurve, which is what I shoot, or longbow and the rationale for considering the compound a traditional bow.

1) This whole issue started when Bill Wadsworth and others who at the time developing a bow hunter education program through the NFAA, took the NFAA (target archery) definition of bow (hand held) and extended it to the hunting seasons. I have no idea why they excluded an already traditional piece of bow equipment from the season, but they were soon to be faced with the compound.

When the compound bow was introduced, it too created a huge outcry from traditional archers, but the definition that it was a hand held piece and I don't know what else, led to their inclusion in archery seasons. From the original letoff's of 50 to 60%, we now have bows being shipped standard with 80% letoff... 10 pounds for a 50 pound bow, 12 pounds for a 60.

When you compute the mechanical advantage of the compound over the recurve or longbow, one has a difficult time rationalizing the compound as "traditional". Add wrist bound trigger releases and you have essentially a crossbow... and no the 20 % holding weight for hunting does not pass for being "hand held". A recurve is hand held, and every pound gets heavier every second I hold it.

Drawing. You mentioned that you had to draw at the moment of the shot. This does not seem to be the case on almost anything I've seen on the outdoor channels. In so many cases I've witnessed on TV archery programs, the bow is drawn as they see the animal come into view and is held motionlessly till the animal presents itself, sometimes for several minutes. And, crossbow aside, if drawing was the issue, there would be no game harvested. We seem to figure out a way to get it done with longbows, and them compound guys seem to figure out a way to get it done themselves.

If its the ability to draw and maintain the hold that keeps the crossbow out of "HUNTING", how does one justify the compound compared to the recurve or longbow? Is it accurate to call a compound a traditional bow?

Part 2 will come next.

Aloha...

[toxic111]

Rattus, you make the compound sound easy to hold for minutes at 80% let-off... I wonder if you have even drawn one? Even with a high let off bow, the average shooter can't hold it steady for more than a minute. With a compund, the tuning is a huge issue, and if you change anything, from your grip to how you release the arrow, the point of impact with change dramaticly!

With a cross bow, once tuned, the POI will not change, no matter how you hold it, it is a shoulder fired weapon, that can be held more steady than any standard bow.

I am not against cross bows, but I would not like to see them in archery seasons, I already know of at least 10 rifle hunters that would buy one if they were allowed. If people really want a season for them, make one in-between archery & muzzleloading seasons.

Oh as for the hunting shows seeming to hold the compound drawn forever... ever hear a editing?? I could do a show where I held the bow drawn for 30 minutes and made it look easy too... The actual draw time was probably only a minute or so. My bear hunt this spring, I had to let down several times until I was able to get a clean shot.

And BTW I shoot several hundred arrows a week, plus compete in the Bow hunter release class in 3D archery.

[rattus58]

Hi Toxic.... Yes I've shot compounds in the past, but they were 65% let off. Here is my perspective on your answer. With a recurve, the 60 pounds I have to hold start to feel like 62,65, 70, 80 pounds in no time. I've NEVER felt that kind of pressure with a compound...

But all that aside... who cares about editing, there is NO comparison between a compound and a recurve and to have some folks complain about 20% holding weight and the crossbow to me is a little disengenuous, when those of us who shoot longbows are holding the actual weights and MUST draw when the animal is in a shooting lane where compounds have a much broader latitude... so much so in fact, that the comparison with crossbows is relevant.

Aloha...

[rattus58]

Oh... one more thing.... since a crossbow is a bow, why would you not want to have your gun hunter friends join the archery community if they would with a crossbow?

You are not trying to keep people out of hunting with a bow are you ?

Aloha..

[toxic111]

Rattus, I am not trying to compare a longbow or recurve to a compound, I have shot both, and know the difference. I am ore to the point ot the differences in a cross bow vs a compund, which are to many.

One thing I have found with the different bow hunting orgs I am in.. everyone is against the cross bow in the bow only season.

It may happen one day, and it might be the day I stop bowhunting, as the reason I stared was to extend my season, and enjoy the outdoors without a bunch of people drive around like I see during rifle season. Add the cross bow in, and that might be what happens.

BTW I have recruited quite a few of my rifle hunting friends to bow hunting, and 99% of them feel the same way I do.

THe crossbow/compund argument is not something anyone will really agreee with.

I look at the cross bow as a shoulder fired short range weapon that is ready to fire at any time, where a compund is a hand drawn and held (even with high let-offs) that can't be drawn until you are nearly ready to shoot. There is a big difference right there.

[rattus58]

Hi Toxic...

While I respect your wanting to have the forests to yourself, you cannot separate the compound from the recurve or longbow. I know that when you do that, you minimize the HUGE advantages that the compound lord over those that original benefited by an archery season.

If you belong to some the organizations out there, they say that a crossbow will end traditional archery forever... and if it wasn't so sad, I'd of burst out laughing. There is NO WAY a compound is remotely related to traditional archery. A crossbow is historically traditional, a compound isn't even close.

Ok, on your other point, I admit that their might be those so weak that they can only hold a compound for just a few seconds at 20% holding weight, but no matter what those individuals were shooting, they'd probably have difficulties when it came to the shot, even with a crossbow. We're not talking exceptions to the rule here, we're considering the norm.

So back to the norm. Compound shooters have a huge advantage in draw over the recurve.. which by the way was there first! Without recognizing that traditional archery has allowed compound shooters to benefit with 6 power optics, 80% letoff, trigger releases, 350 fps (PSE X-force) arrow speeds and the ability to hold full draw for minutes on end, by comparison, there is essentially no difference to a compound when used for hunting.

There really is no legitimate reason to keep a crossbow out of an archery season in my opinion especially when you compared it to the recurve and longbows that we shoot.

Aloha.. Tom

[gd357]

One point that I rarely see in discussions about crossbows is the fact that it is a super way to intruduce young hunters to the archery season. Whether or not crossbows will diminish the number of traditionalists, I can't say. For as long as I've been hunting here in Ohio, they have been legal for anyone to use during the archery season. I do know that it is a wonderful way for me to spend time with my younger siblings in the woods, and I've had the priviledge of being present when they were given opportunities at whitetails. Had they been using compounds or traditional archery gear, I don't think that they would have been proficient enough to go into the woods after live game. JMHO

gd