A Ruger #3 in 358 Win ?

[Rapier]

A few weeks ago I bought a #3 in 22 Hornet that someone had rechambered to 223. Unfortunately they did not take care of the baby and the bore looks like 10 miles of bad road. As I bought the gun for cheap, knowing I had a brand new, unfired 22 Hornet #3 barrel in the tube back at the house, it was a no brainer. So all is well... sorta. That is until I got it all put together 3 days ago.

Now I got to thinking, Hum, I have this cobby 223 No 3 barrel that runs up right to the witness mark, I have a new 06 extractor for a #1, same same #3, and what if? So I came up with having the barrel rebored to .358 with 1-14 twist, cut rifled, chambered for 358 Win. I happen to know the guys that make barrels for Midway. They build button rifled and cut riflling, barrels for lever guns. The rebore and chambering is just so easy on the #3 it seems like a natural.

So what do you think about a little 358 Win Ruger # 3 Bambi thumper?
Ed

[skeet]

Not a real fan of the 358..but..a 338-06... or 338-08 or somethin of that order.. or what's yer cherce??

[Rapier]

Skeet,
Well, that is a thought, but I have a 338 WM so I have a 338 that I can load up or down. I just like 358 guns, especially 358 guns and cast bullets, don't ya know. That is why the thought of the 358 and cut rifling.

I am thinking that the #3 with the original 22 inch barrel in a 358 bore would be light, but the recoil should not be brutal. It probably will not work out that way though.
Ed

[Jack]

Since you don't have action length as a factor, like you would with a bolt gun, the 35 Whelan would be another possibility.
The #3 has that curved buttplate, and is a bit lighter than a #1 to start with. With a bored out barrel, that might lighten it even a bit more. I think recoil would be a factor with full power loads.
The rifle sure would make a good woods rifle for about anything, though.
Interesting project- keep us updated on what you decide and how it works.

[skeet]

I have very little use for the 358 as I said..but I do like 35 cal guns. I know this isn't thought of as a real knockdown drag out kinda cartridge..but how about the 357 Rem Max or even the 35 Rem..Sharp bullets in either of the 180-200 gr variety would be a good Bambi getter. I have a Max(and a 35 Rem) in a Contender that shoots great.A friend back east has one he can use for deer and does so with really good success. He keeps his shots inside 200 yds..mainly cause he is using a handgun. And it can shoot 38s 357s and 38 Long Colt too...if ya happen to have any. LOL I thought of making the little Winchester Low Wall up into the Max..but it really can't handle that kinda pressures. Darn it.

[Rapier]

See, Now there you go..... I have two 357 SM (Max) rifles now and a 350 RM. So I was kinda thinking I have a hole between the two cartridges.

You are correct Skeet, the 180 in the 357 SM is a real thumper. Only killed one deer with it but it was a bang / flop. But a 358 SP 180gr rifle bullet at 2200 is a 180 at 2200, regardless of what it comes from.

[Rapier]

This is the 357 SM / 225 Win Mag gun, two barrels, that I built. The other gun is pretty much the same with a walnut stock.
Ed

[Larryjk]

Rapier, What kinds of loads are you using in the Martini Cadet action? My understanding is those action are rated at about 45,000 psi. I have three that are slated for low pressure calibers due to that reason. I have one that will become a 20 VarTarg but will not be loaded to the primer blowing stage.

[dovehunter]

Originally Posted by Rapier

This is the 357 SM / 225 Win Mag gun, two barrels, that I built. The other gun is pretty much the same with a walnut stock.
Ed

Wow - a nice looking gun and particularly nice wood!!! I bet it turns some heads at the range. How does it shoot?

[skeet]

That is a nice looking little rifle. We know it shoots good with the 357 Max..how do it shoot with the 225? I had a couple of Bolt guns in the 225 and they were accurate..but have heard that they had a tendency to be erratic..I really don't know. I find 225 ammo every now and then at gun shows..buy it cheap..just in case. Had a chance to buy a Martini action not long ago..didn't..Maybe dumb?

[Rapier]

Larry,
The cadet is actuall a BP gun built in the smokless era. It has an action that will easily do 50K and probably over 60K. The trick is that the barrel, like a bolt gun provides the real pressure machine. The bolt of a cadet closes to a straiht in line lockup, inside a steel box. In other words you must drive the bolt through the rear of the steel box to open a gap in the front.

The one area in the configuration where the action shows its age is the firing pin hole. For high pressure cartridges the hole must be reduced to a moder diameter and the firing pin reduced in diameter. I made a small shouldered bushing for this purpose held in place with black locktite (5,000 PSI). As all of the pressure is to the rear all that is necessary is a slight shoulder to hold the bushing in place.

Once the bushing and reduced diameter pin is in place the Cadet will eat just about anything a 357 SM or 225 can put out.

Regards accuracy and performance:
357 SM with 16 inch barrel
180 gr Hornady Rifle bullet H-110 24.5 Gr 2,140 fps, slightly flattening primer, .70 group @ 100
200gr Remington RN 23.5 gr 2,040 fps no pressure signs .50 group @ 100

This is the 2nd gun which shoots identical to the first. But is a 357 SM only gun.

[PJgunner]

I do so dearly love the way people will take a thread and get away with the original subject at hand.

Frankly, I kind of like the idea of a Ruger #3 in .358 Win. A nice reasonbly lightweight thumper that still won't beat you to death. I could go for one myself. I have had a couple of #3's in 45-70 and those hurt with powerful loads. because nowadays they have some collector value, I didn't do anything to mine and finally sold them off.
What I think I wold do, as long as you're doing it to be a .358 is I would add a Pachmeyr Decelerator recoil pad. They do make a difference. it would also serve anther purpose as well. I'm not a particularly lrge individual, but I find that the butt stock on the Ruger #3 was designed for a midget. By adding that pad, the stock will be more of a normal legth, the pad and extra length will, IMHO make the recoil a heck of a lot more tolerable. As I didn't want to alter my 45-70s, I used a slip on pad and the added length did make a difference.
I only have one question though. Is the barrel at the muzzle thick enough to allow boring out to .358"? I'm OK with the 1 in 14" twist rate. That's a lot better than Ruger doing it with a 1 in 16" twist.
I have five rifles in .358, two Ruger 77s (tang safety model) a savage 99, browning BLR and a Kodial Mauser. The browning and savage came with the peope 1 in 12" twist that Winchester used in their .358s but the other three are 1 in 16" twist and frankly, they don't shoot worth a damn. I also have three rifles in .35 Whelen, a Ruger 77 tang safetym Remington M700 Classic and a custom Mauser. The Mauser came from an estate sale and has a 1 in
14" twist and is avery decent grouper especially with the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. The other two have 1 in 16" twist rates and are somewhat mediocre when it comes to accuracy. Dunno what they were thinking but somebody had his head in a warm dark place.
As you have probably guessed, I like the .35's. The only real draw back with the .358 is finding brass and ammo. It's one of the cartridges Winchester loads or makes brass for on a "seasonal basis". I have a friend that deals in componenets and he got me a sweet deal on 500 rounds of Winchester .358 bass. So, I'm good to go forever.
Paul B.

[Ridge Runner]

will the #3 action handle the pressure of a 358? I thought 223 was the biggest rimless it was chambered in.
RR

[Jack]

The #3 action is identical to the Ruger #1, internally- both are stronger than most bolt guns. The #3 was chambered in 22 Hornet, 223, 375 Winchester, 45-70, and maybe others.
30-40 Krag, maybe?

[Rapier]

Tried to get back but there was a problem on the site.

Some answers to several questions about the Martini Cadet:

The Cadet action is technically a BP action for a BP gun. However it was made in the era of smokeless powder. It is much stronger than 99% of the folks realize. It is as strong as the large action, however it is limited by the "turn" and that is you must have a cartridge that will go into the chamber, past the rear height of the action or bolt. One indication of just how much pressure a Cadet action can handle is the cartridge designed specificly for use in the Cadet, the 222 Remington modified with a rim or the 222R. I own one of these rifles and it is a 222 that you load as normal using a 38spl shell holder, very simple. But the gun uses standard 222 loads and the 222 case itself is rated as a 60K case, normally loaded to 46-47,000 CUP which is exactly how the 222R is loaded.

I believe that the largest diameter case head you can safely load in the Cadet is the 225 Win or 30-30 due to the chamber VS barrel minor thread diameter. There are a lot of 225s around and as with mine, the folks that own them stick to factory loads or equal and do not push the limits.

The secret to the 357 Super Mag guns is the use of rifle bullets as a flat sided pistol bullet will not make the turn into the chamber. You must also reduce the firing pin diameter and make a bushing to reduce the firing pin hole for high pressure cartridges. I use a small short bushing (about half way through the bolt face) with a shoulder, inserted into the bolt face with black locktite, firing pin hole drilled first. I create a shoulder on the firing pin and stop the FP on the bolt body, not the bushing. Make sure to shorten the pin so it does not extend past the standard smokeless extension. I also change the firing pin spring to a new spring just in case its old spring is worn.

The 357 SM guns, or Max if you wish have 16 inch barrels and both load as follows:
180 Hornady SP Rifle Bullet 24.5 Gr H-110 @ 2,140 fps .70 group at 100 yards this is a max load with slightly starting to flatten primers
200 Remington RN Rifle Bullet 23.5 H-110 @ 2,003 fps .50 groups at 100 No pressure signs at all

The 180 load is a bang flop load on a deer. It is a Bambi roller.

I just knew Paul would understand the idea of the 358 Win in a #3, expecially when new wood was added to the equasion, with a recoil pad.

The #3 was made in 30-40 Kraig, a buddy of mine has had two and still has one. He like Paul is a #1 nut and decided his life was not complete without a full set of #3s. He has a #3 he built is 45x120.5 that is an uncut cylindrical case at its full length, the extra .5

The #3 and #1 actions are identical, save the levers and lever parts. If I can get it to post I will show you my #13. A #3 22 Hornet with a #1 7mm RM barrel, #1 wood and a #1 mag extractor / ejector.
Here we go,
Ed

First is the 2nd 357 SM