The "Ready Gun" Position.

[Riposte1]

Adam;

Neither will I have the last word. There is always something new to learn. I dont think we are that far apart in this discussion.

I will simply say I agree completely with your thought that one performs under stress exactly as you practice. Or as Barret Tillman wrote: "You do not rise to the occasion but default to your higest level of training."

One of the slides in my inbrief says "You will do what you practice; If you practice nothing then you will do nothing,... but get shot."

Very best regards.
Riposte

[Adam Helmer]

Riposte1,

Ok, I know I said, I said it all, but here is one humurous note I think you will appreciate since you are obviously a LEO with a lot of smarts and are a Firearms Instructor to boot.

One nice Friday September day about 1994, I was on the range with about 15 disinterested agents who enjoyed an "easy" day and an early get home sort of scenario. I was trying to instruct the nuances of "Combat Loading" of our issue 12 gauge Remington 870s. Get the picture: We put the shells in our "weak side" pockets and load the tube while watching the bad guys. So far, so good, right?

Well, with 15 "Pilgrims" on the line with shotguns we had two jams from the get go and my two line coaches responded to the "Problems." First agent tried to load a BIC lighter into the tube and another old timer put a half-roll of Tums into his 870 tube! So much for combat loading the shotgun when miscellaneous "stuff" is in the same pocket as the shells!

Like I said, I carefully selected the agents I wanted on certain cases. Be well

Adam

[Riposte1]

Adam;

:-), Yep, that sounds pretty familiar.

One of my students became a member of the Cadre for one of our state's largest departments and invited me up to their new indoor range a short time after it was put into operation.

Everything was so pristine that when I walked into the shooting bay I was immediately attracted to a group of smudges on the concrete ceiling. My guide saw me notice and said "Riot gun class two weeks ago."

We moved inside to the classroom and I saw a bullet hole, about 9mm or .38, in the wall even with the table tops. He saw me notice this and said "Glock Armorer's class, last week."

No wonder firearms instructors pull out their hair :-)

Thanks for sharing!
Riposte

[Andy L]

This is good stuff. You guys keep talking.

[Andy L]

Adam, just a quick word about training. I dont do as much as I should. I have a range I can shoot rifles out to 90 yards in my back yard. I will go out with my carry gun, currently Taurus PT 145, and shoot. I always practice shooting from different ranges, but always at reasonable "inside" ranges, different angles, gun in hand, gun in holster, ect... Not necessarily quick draw stuff, but get the gun up smoothly, safety off and fire an accurate shot, sometimes while moving too.

No one else in our company practices at all. I have never had to fire my weapon and havent drawn on a person but a handful of times. I do take it out and carry it down to my side when searching a house alot of times. But I would like to think that just what you said will cover me. Should I ever get surprised and have to use it, the practice I have put in will take over when my mind is too busy puckering my buttthole and do whats necessary to save my bacon.

I hope anyway.

[Adam Helmer]

Andy L,

Keep practicing. Remember what Bill Jordan said, "To be fast is fine, but accuracy is final." Not many of our agents ever practiced even though we had an indoor range and plenty of ammo on hand.

On searches, I usually had my handgun in my strong hand pointed down and slightly away from my body. The appearance of that gun-in-hand had a salutory effect on some alleged violators. Also, if they set a pit bull on you, it is good to have gun in hand when the pucker factor revves up!

Adam

[Riposte1]

An interesting, but academic, follow up. Last night I took part in a traveling training program our state is putting on. They have been in our county now for a couple of weeks and I guess I was the last of about 50 L.E.O.s in our little region (not all from the same agency).

It was a good 15 minutes of simple marksmanship training on a simulator similar to a FATS system followed by 45 minutes of decision making scenarios. I was keenly interested because I run a 12 lane FATS and I have seen most of the scenarios. You only test yourself on things you are seeing for the first time.

Unfortunately they only had two choices in lethal weapons; a Glock 23 and a Sig 228. Neither fit my hand but I picked the Glock. Naturally, it would not fit in my 1911 holster so I had to stick it in my belt (concealed). Probably half of the more than a dozen scenarios ended up with coming to the ready (subjects escalating the situation, body language, etc).

One scenario applies directly to this thread; It was an Active Shooter in a High School. As the "testee", you see through the eyes of the camera, moves down the hall you first see students who have been shot. Then one of the officers is shot from a connecting hall (but you cannot see the gun or the subject). Then you pie the corner to see the subject with a Glock to the head of a student who is down on his knees (you can see the chest and head of the shooter).

I shot this guy 3 times in the head coming from the low ready with the finger completely out of the trigger guard (they have a camera filming the "testee"). The first shot showed up as .5 seconds though I am not quite sure when the timer starts...I dont think it was when I first saw the guy.

Just for informational purposes I tried it again, keeping the gun in the "Sul" position that some folks these days mistake as a "ready" position (it is not, it is a "safety" position). This time the student being held hostage died before I could get the gun up and shoot though the time was about .75 seconds.

Just a point of reference. It probably does not mean much. No one can predict how these things will go.

Instructive non-the-less.

Riposte

PS; I noticed a lot of things I did wrong in these scenarios. That is what we train for. Learn how to improve.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by Riposte1
Just for informational purposes I tried it again, keeping the gun in the "Sul" position that some folks these days mistake as a "ready" position (it is not, it is a "safety" position). This time the student being held hostage died before I could get the gun up and shoot though the time was about .75 seconds.

"Sul" position? Not familiar with that (or maybe just not familiar with the terminology).

A bit more info if possible???

[Riposte1]

Aim to Maim;
Sure. This is something that has been making the rounds in training circles for about 8 to 10 years now. Difficult to explain and I am not sure a link is allowed here...a picture really is worth a thousand words.

Best I can explain it is that one draws the gun back into the "Third Eye" position which some advocate (I dont but most know what it is; the barrel of the weapon is paralell to the ground pointed forward, and the wrists are more or less resting on your mid-section - or your body armor).

Now simply release your grip with your support hand (left if you are right handed) but maintining the contact of the index finger with the underside of the trigger guard as you "unfold" your grip and bend the wrist of the firing hand (maintaining a firing grip) and point the muzzle downward between your feet.

"Sul" is Portugese for South - the muzzle is pointing "South" ....sort of.

The position was conceived by Alan Brosnan and Max Joseph of Tactical Explosive Entry School (TEES) and they happened to be teaching in Brazil at the time (the official language of Brazil is Portugese). Later Alan started another (TEES) in South America and even later he sold his school in Arkansas.

Alan has said repeatedly and consistently that Sul is a "safety position" used for moving around no-shoots, not a "ready" position. However, like many things, so many instructors and gun writers have picked up on something a little unique and spread it around without researching the purpose or beginnings.

Hope this helps. If not send me a PM and I will try to point you toward a picture.

Riposte

[Aim to maim]

Understood. Thanks for the detailed explanation.