Crossbows and Compounds

[gd357]

BTW, here's a pic of my 13 yr old brother with his first kill during the archery season

[Rustywreck]

Rattus,

It is humorous that you say compound bows are no way related to traditional archery, yet include crossbows as traditional archery.

True there were crossbows in use 1000's of years ago, but the modern crossbow is no more closely related to them than a compound is to a longbow.

The true elietist in the archery world are the hardcore traditional shooters. They are the ones who look down on anyone who shoots anything different. Every year there are "traditional only" 3-D shoots. Do you ever see a "compound only" 3-D shoot?

Not likely. Every 3-D shoot I've ever shot with a compound has had stakes for traditional equipment.

Perhaps the reason so many people are against crossbows is because of compound bows. When compound bows first came to be they were more difficult to shoot than a recurve. They weren't strongly opposed because they weren't seen as a threat.

Now, if at that time, traditional shooters were presented with a new Mathews Switchback as the first compound bow you certainly would have heard the same arguements as you are hearing now regarding crossbows.

Unfortunately, there is no way to stop compound bows from becoming more technologically advanced. Who knows what the current crossbow will become if it were to gain universal popularity.

[rattus58]

Hi Feathermax...

Actually a modern crossbow is pretty much exactly the same as it used to be. Materials are a little different, the trigger is more like a rifle trigger instead of ticklers, but operate to unlock a sear in pretty much similar fashion. The stock has been lengthened to accomodate a more comfortable buttstock. Otherwise pretty much business as usual. That they borrow compound technology with wheels on some, doesn't make them the innovator, but makes them opportunistic to use new technology, but there are some pretty typical crossbows like the excaliber that use a basic limb... as they have for a thousand years.

Arguments against compounds from what I gather, were actually pretty loud at first, but because of a decision to accept the rational that it was hand held, well the rest is history... and yet history should have accepted the crossbow.

Back to the original questions... you cannot talk about crossbows without talking about recurves. You cannot talk about recurves without talking about compounds. You can't ignore those comparisons because that is what happened with the compound's introduction. The crossbow only brings a marginal level of additional holding power over the compound, and in neither case can that be ignored from comparisons with the longbow or recurve.

In the 1500's, crossbows were in fact used for hunting, so to say that they are traditional for hunting is entirely accurate.

Aloha...

[kt]

in my corner of PA here, the game commission will allow whatever is feasible to smash as many deer as possible, a few friends of mine that i waterfowl with got into the crossbow thing simply because it takes alot less to get good with a crossbow than it does with a bow. for the most part i am still happy to just have them in the woods with me however, i have seen a few things that make me say hmmm, walking deer going down like they got hit by dump trucks after taking a bolt through both shoulders, deer springing up as we walk into our stands that get whacked with a rifle like snap shot, one of my buddies fired three bolts in his life ten minutes before harvesting his first deer with the crossbow, a near perfect shot i might add. although we all enjoy the game, these friends dont feel the pride or brag that they got an archery deer, we call them arrow rifles. what really set the crossbow apart for us all is the fact that 12 deer among 5 guys died on crossbow drives in about a week last year, you guys do that with the bow? part of me says live and let kill, part of me says if you crossbow the buck of a lifetime and brag about your archery kill, you might as well snag a 28 inch rainbow in the tail and put it on the wall. always a hot topic this crossbow
kt

[petey]

Another tibit to add. Anyone can pick up a crossbow and shoot it once it's sighted in. Slap a scope on it get it sighted in and hand it over to your friend and I'm sure they can kill a deer with it.

You can't do that with any bow. Compounds are set for each person's draw and anchor point, plus take lots of practice. I switched over to a recurve this year hoping to make it a little more "challenging". It took me a little bit to learn to shoot instinctive and that's being a novice at archery for the better part of 20 years. I could hand either bow over to a friend who's never shot it and I guarentee they'd miss a deer target at 20 yards, but hand them a corssbow that's sighted in and they'd probably make a killing shot every time.

No biggie I guess, but where's the pride in that? You earn your animal with a bow. You practice for months on end, tune it and have to have patience and knowledge of where and when to draw and release.

Pick up a crossbow, slap the corsshairs on him at 20 and pull the trigger. Doesn't trip my trigger, so I wouldn't choose to shoot one... I still won't knock it, just the same as I wouldn't want people knockin me for shooting deer out past 700 yards with my long range rifle rig. Just a different way to hunt them. I think they'd need to create a different season for them though. One nice thing about archery is that I rarely see hunters in the woods on public ground. Allow crossbows here and I'm sure I'd see a lot more weekend warriors and may have to look for private ground, or even post my own to ensure my quiet time.

I doubt it would ever come to that, but I sure do enjoy archery. It's my favorite time of the year, especially b/c I get the feeling that I'm the only one in the woods. Yup, there's always that feeling of not wanting to let go or share a season you already have. Same way I felt when they created an early muzzleloader season right smack in the middle of archery. Even youths and seniors can hunt with rifles. Deer are so bugged out after that week it takes 2 weeks for them to calm down. I hit it hard the first week and the last and let the rest for the muzzleloader hunters and small game hunters. Don't know what I'd feel if I had to share my only free 2 weeks with a bunch of crossbow hunters.

No doubt I'll see it happen in my lifetime here in PA though, so I'm sure I'll just grin and bare it.

I do agree with gd though. If we had a crossbow season and with the new youth mentoring season, I'm sure I'd have my 4 yr old shooting one already getting ready for about when he's 6 or 7. I can't wait to bring him out and whack a deer. Some kids can't pull much more than 40 pounds at age 12...me I was shooting 65 pounds at age 11 and killed my first deer with a bow at 12 at 8 yards. I'm sure I wasn't the norm though. Still remember it like it was today. Jennings Unistar (sure don't miss that heavy club!), 125 gr Kolpin Twister broadheads, deer ran 20 yards and dropped...talk about exciting

[rattus58]

Hi KT, Petey...

I don't shoot a crossbow so I'm not able to answer your questions with any facts, but lets say that you can shoot a crossbow out of the box, or even your compound out of the box, in either case if all bows could be shot out of the box on deer, the fact still remains, the advantages of 80-85% letoff versus the stick bow is of huge magnitude. That a crossbow is a few % more is really sort of irrelevant in overall scheme of things.

However, 12 deer and 5 hunters comes down to one of two things only.. the shooters were prepared, and or you found a lot of deer... or actually maybe both.

Hunting is still hunting, even with Petey's 700 yard rig... it's still hunting.

If you got more hunters in the season due to crossbows, how can that hurt? Hunter numbers are declining daily so this is a good thing I think, to be able to recruit. One thing though, for groups like the PBS and the New York Bowhunters to cry out that a crossbow is the greatest single threat to "traditional archer" in existence today is a ludicrous statement. Crossbows are in fact VERY traditional....

I'd love to go hunting with a crossbow no matter just to try it out. And if I shoot something of real bragging rights, why in the world wouldn't I be braggin the huge whatever I shot just because I shot it with a crossbow? If I snagged a world record by its tail... am I going to not claim it? Heck no... there is nothing about a crossbow that should allow anyone not to proud of their accomplishments. It doesn't shoot further, faster, or with any advantage over a compound and their 6 power optics and all either, so to me... an accomplishment is worthy... even with a crossbow.

Aloha...

[kt]

rattus, as i said, i dont fault the crossbow shooter, but until you do it, understand i exploit every hunting opurtunity i get, all i am saying is no matter what you throw at a deer to kill it, a bullet a broadhead or buckshot, we are talking different stuff, none are even, including a broad head off a bow compared to that off a crossbow, bowhunting has been my life since i can draw a kill weight, they are not the same. this is ten years of theory, not that i see many more archers, i do see those new cross bow dudes killing their first quicker

bottom line, if a compound and a crossbow were the same and a crossbow was not legal, why would any body capable of a draw want to shoot a crossbow?????
when we can answer that question i will except that crossbow shooters are on par, or equal to the 3 deer i spent 3 months trying to kill until then, unless we can find a way to say compounds, crossbows, rifles and muzzleloaders are the same, i still dont want to hear that your crossbow deer is an archery kill.
once again a very hot topic, i love you all, very volatile conversation can open a big can of worms here.

[rattus58]

Hi Kt... I can certainly appreciate your comment... I know... the however...

Yes... well you made one comment that needs some clarification for me. You mentioned in your last post, "no matter what you throw at a deer to kill it, a bullet a broadhead or buckshot, we are talking different stuff, none are even, including a broad head off a bow compared to that off a crossbow, and here is where we have a difference of opinion.

A crossbow has a typical advertised speed of 245 to about 320 fps. Others with heavier weights have speeds up to 350 fps, right along with our compound bows of today. In the speed department, compounds and crossbows are equals.

Kinetic energy is based upon arrow speed. Kinetic energy plays a very small role in archery, whereas sharp broadheads plays a much largher role in the harvest of game.

A compound with a 425 grain arrow and a crossbow with a 425 bolt at 320 fps, will have identical kinetic energy values.

There are no differences in the hunting environment between the compound and the crossbow.

Aloha...

[Dom]

I just happen to stumble along and read this topic, I must say interesting. I do not think no matter where you throw crossbows in if you could hunt with them that you would please anybody or everybody. I also must say I'd throw them in with bowhunting versus throwing them in the Muzzle Loader hunt.

Make another season? The way things are going where do you stop? Let's kick off with traditional archery, then the compound season, then the youth, then the old season, then the crossbow season, then the rifle season, then the muzzleloader season, then the . . . you get the picture, might as well make a spear season while we're at it . . .

Would not another option be to run the season 4 months long, and you get one tag and you can use whatever weapon you want? It would offer a period of time ample for anybody to use whatever they want, and I would hope keep the pressure and overcrowding down? Well, one drawback is the one tag deal, maybe make it two, and after that you gotta hunt with your camera, I dunno.

Anyway, just a little bit of my perspective on the take, JMHO, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

P.S. At least you all got something to bicker about, Bow and Arrow hunting of any sort is not allowed where I'm at. Hey, that might be a good thing, 'cause there ain't no bickering about this or that bow or weapon!!

[kt]

rattus you are right that statement did need clarification, in that respect yes they are even, the terminal performance is very similar. what i meant to imply was the techniques are different but that is what this thread is all about.
i dont have any more counter arguments against the crossbow,
but if you get one you have got to try a pack of those crimson talon broadheads built just for the crossbow, my buds all shoot them, fired once they are often garbage because of the spiral blades, but i have seen some stuff involving them that is just not G rated. how ever, damn are they pricey, essentially 11 dollars a broadhead, not that you cant put a price on a clean kill.
they must be great because the first time i shot one off a crossbow i hit a bullseye at 30 yds!
kt

[rattus58]

Hi Dom, Here in Hawaii on Public Lands we cannot legally use the crossbow either. This is something that we're working on right now.

Hi KT... I'm not driven by the crossbow and am not thinking about getting one anytime soon. I've gotten more interested in this more probably by the negative comments I hear about the crossbow compared to what I see as "facts" about their use.

I'd probably be using wood arrows if left to my own devices more likely.....

Aloha...

[rattus58]

Originally posted by gd357
BTW, here's a pic of my 13 yr old brother with his first kill during the archery season

Nice looking boy and I'd be happy to say, I'd be proud of my harvest no matter how it happened....

Congratulations on getting them interested in hunting at a young age like you did.

Aloha... Tom

[kt]

facts, that is a term like "independent study" when it comes to these things take the words of blue collar hunters (a.k.a. kt) because facts are largelly paid for, for instance blue collar hunter is the reason i still shoot muzzy's. cheap and standing the test of time. Facts on the other hand favor broadheads that seek vital arteries, and expand when they hit flesh and nothing else, made of some alloy that sounds impressive. my buck of a lifetime or my life are not to be decided by devices that sound impressive can always count on this site for both sides of a story. dont get me wrong i have lost 3 deer in 4 years with a bow, my new comer friend with the crossbow has never missed or lost a deer. i find myself thinking i should explore the topic just to be a more humane hunter, i see both sides. here is where it is...... "Do what is legal and what satisfies your personal goals" its nothing but taxidermy from there,
kt

[rattus58]

Originally posted by kt
i find myself thinking i should explore the topic just to be a more humane hunter, i see both sides. here is where it is...... "Do what is legal and what satisfies your personal goals" its nothing but taxidermy from there,
kt

Your facts about broadheads seek vitals and arteries is in fact... right on, regardless of method. You last statement hit it right on too...

The more I look into crossbows the more interesting they become... especially building one in the old style... now that would be a gas.... only about 220 to 240 fps though... but what the heck.... KT's rule #1 "Your facts about broadheads seek vitals and arteries is in fact... "



Aloha.. Tom

[DON WALKUP]

i feel the crossbow has a valid place in the hunting community and should be allowed; not as ARCHERY equipment and seasons per se, but in GENERAL seasons or perhaps in a season(s) of their own. they also are permitted for handicapped persons which i believe to be fair and acceptable.

the reason? the crossbow is NOT RESTRAINED MANUALLY by the operator as is the traditional archery bow.

i, myself, find crossbows, ungainly, heavy, awkward to manuever, difficult to ready for the shot, and the ones i've used, were very noisy at release...but...that's me. if another wishes to use...by all means...feel free to do so.

i found they're no more accurate or 'faster' than the mainstream compound of today and don't have any other advantage other than being able to be restrained (fully drawn, read for the shot) indefinitely with no effort on the operators part.