8x56R Load data????

[Mad Reloader]

The Mad One, having just gotten into World War One re-enacting is now the proud possessor of a Steyr 95 "Stutzen" short rifle, in calibre 8x56R.

Me being me, I rather like to be able to shoot things besides blanks in my re-enacting rifles (Unit Marksmanship Drill and all that good stuff!)

However--typical for Yours Truly!--have once again gotten a weird calibre not commonly available. Besides the pricey Norma stuff, what's out there for factory loaded ammo is the Bulgarian mil-surp C/BE and the last remaining WW2 German berdan primed ammo.

"Okely-dokely". Happen to live not TOO far from Shell Reloading (aka Bob Shell) who will do custom loads, and there's the possibility of my someday investng in a set of dies for this oddball. Also have found THREE sources of new boxer-primed brass (Norma, Hansen and Buffalo Arms reworked) Also sources for cast and jacketed 0.329 projos.

Kicker is: I only have two loads on hand for this cartridge.

Frank Barnes' 45 grains of 3031 behind a 200-209 grain mil jacketed projo--

and Rocky Raab's pinch of Green Dot behind a cast bullet for what would be a "Tyrolean Cowboy" load.

Now, the latter would seem to be the best bet for the sit-rep I'm facing. Have heard too many stories of extractors breaking on Steyr 95 straight-pulls, and sources of supply for these firearms are drying up. (Numrich GPC no longer has reliable quantities of bolt heads/extractors on hand! NOT a good sign!)

Anyone have something a bit more in between? Like a milder version of the Barnes load, or a hotter-than-CAS-spec cast bullet one?

(Again, my initial stock of reloadable ammo is going to be done up by Bob Shell, who has pert near every powder on the market available to hand. So not like I have to rush out and buy a can of powder just to load 100-200 casings of a cartridge I'll be firing once in a blue moon!)

Object here is to have something that won't be too drastic pressure-wise on the ca. 1916 short rifle--but hopefully a bit "zingier" than the small dollop of Green Dot I routinely roll off for .30 to .32 calibre Cowboy loadings.

IF such a thing is possible! (For my greatest concern is wear & tear on the bolt face/extractor...)

[Gil Martin]

According to "Cartridges of the World", there are two 8X56mm loads. You quoted the 206 grain ball military load and 45 grains of IMR3031. Also listed is a 198 grain soft point and 46 grains of IMR3031. That's all there is. All the best...
Gil

[Mad Reloader]

Looking at the (estimated?) MV of what 46 grains of 3031 would do with a 198 grain jacketed pill...honestly, I'd back it off one grain for a rifle that's prolly seen BOTH World Wars.

To me, looks like pretty much one load, Mr. Barnes' semantics notwithstanding.

In all likelihood, will be doing the "Tyrolean Cowboy" load with cast leads, the Stutzen's not much longer barrel-wise than my infamous M-1944 which gets cast leads backed up by a CAS-approvable pinch of Green Dot, "Cowboyski Action" style as the Mosin carbines, IMHO & IME don't mesh that well with full house 7.62x54R...and I forsee similar results with 8x56R and a barrel of that shortness.

(and Mosin-Nagant extractors & bolt heads are still easily to be had! So hopefully you can understand my "comfort level" --or lack thereof-- with Barnes' data and something besides a new unissued Hungarian M-1935!)

[Brithunter]

Hi Mad Reloader,



The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

Here is the whole article:-

By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now
mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is
$20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast
Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, %%WORD180%B27, %%WORD181%A98 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental
double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within
certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 189 design, suitable for smokeless
powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they
necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the
8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I
have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester,
.375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of
similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys
(10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight. Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load" starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion, but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and
kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr.
cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild, but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. pr 170-gr. .30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the Garand as well. These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06,
7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would
expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.). Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6 cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This
approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target
barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.



As for proper jacketed load data may I suggest trying the forums dedicated to such rifles, Millsurper (Parallax Bill's) has one as does Gun Boards just for starters. Dies are on lees list, I have a set here and are listed as 8x56R Hungarian. Hope that helps.

[Mad Reloader]

Brithunter:

Umm, swap out the word "Green" for "Red" in the above monograph, and that's basically my standard load for .303 British, .308 Win, similar size thirty calibre rounds with cast leads.

(For .30-30, drop down to 8 grains of Green! Volume's smaller!)

I on occasion load for shotgun, and have a couple of loads for some oddball pistol calibres using Green Dot...so I keep that as one of my standard powders in inventory.

When I applied the Green version of "The Load" to rolling up 7.62x54R--which has a significantly larger internal volume than .303--I upped my charge to 15.0 grains, and since the 8x56R looks like a Mosin-Nagant round fired in an oversize chamber, it's clearly in the same capacity class, so once again:

Cast lead bullet of standard weight for the class, 15.0 grains Green= "Tyrolean Cowboy" load for 8mm Steyr rifles!