Perspective on Bullet Performance

[denton]

A while back, somebody posted a super useful bullet performance chart here. It compared the penetration and weight retention of a bunch of different popular 180 grain 30 cal. bullets, fired at various speeds, into soggy phone books. As you would expect, the differences in performance were quite large.

So it got me to thinking.

If you go from, say, a 243 to a 308, you pick up quite a bit of knock-down power. How does that compare with the improvement you get in going from a standard bullet to a really good bullet? At 2700 fps, one of the popular standard priced bullets penetrated 15.8". The better bullet from the same manufacturer penetrated 18.2", and another manufacturer's offering came in at 21.7". Those are some pretty big differences. The GSCustom's out of South Africa appear to be better yet. (Poorest of the lot was the MatchKing, which was tested just to substantiate the manufacturer's claim that it is not a hunting bullet. It's not.)

So, help me put this in perspective.

As compared with shooting a standard bullet, is the step from a standard bullet to a very good bullet the same as the difference between a 243 and a 7-08? Or the same as the difference between a 243 and a 308? Or the difference between any other two cartridges of your choice? (Excluding, of course, the ever popular comparison between a Red Ryder and a 50 BMG.)

[Rocky Raab]

The argument devolves, as always, to the definition of "better".

The group of hunters who believe that a bullet should always expand like a balloon and never exit will point to some bullets as ideal and condemn others.

The guys who staunchly believe that a bullet should always completely penetrate an animal will avidly choose the very bullets that the first group condemned.

And, there are those who say that premium bullets are unnecessary for medium game anyway. Standard core and jacket bullets at standard velocities and ranges have worked for a century, they correctly say.

The good news is that there are now bullets out there to make all groups happy.

[L. Cooper]

The question as you put it is impossible to answer because of way too many variables in determining what is "better" for a specific situation, or even what exactly "knock down power" really means. Rocky has pointed out some of those variables.

I will say that I believe there are more animals lost due to bad bullet choice than are lost due to bad caliber choice. Of course there are far more lost due to bad bullet placement than either the above.

Proper bullet selection taking into account the game animal being hunted and the ballistics of the cartridge being used is controversial, and it is crucial to humane hunting success. I, like most hunters, have strong opinions about correct choices, but my opinions won't answer your question.

[Dutchboy]

The answer, I think, can only be found by collecting enough data points to take out the noise. I would expect that anything less than 100 data points would provide very little insight.

From what studies I have seen, which include a Swedish study on cartridge comparison on moose and a North (?) Carolina study on white tail, there really is very little difference in cartridges and "travel after the shot". I would assume that the same is true with bullets: shot placement is much more important that bullet selection or cartridge choice.

That said, those of us that are "highly focused" (obsessed is such an ugly word), like to take out the uncertainty, and pony up for the high dollar copper bullets.

The big difference, in my opinion, of the copper bullets is that they penetrate deeper. If the shot is not ideal, there will be a longer wound channel, which has a higher probability of hitting vital organs or major blood vessels before exiting. Like Rocky said, some of us highly value that exit wound. I like lots of blood on the ground, so I can find what I shoot. FWIW, Dutch.

[Cossack]

With all the variables to consider (distance, game size, shot angle, etc) I like to think that a premium bullets makes that individual gun all that it can be. For example, the 243 is marginal for large deer. Loaded with conventional bullets (some of which are intended for varmints) it can produce spectacular kills if you hit just right. But there is no margin of error. Loaded with a premium (Barnes TSX for me) at least you don't have to worry about the possible effects of hitting a rib or shoulder; a raking shot is still risky.
So it's still a marginal caliber but just made a bit better for reasonable application. Is the 243 more like a 7/08 or 260 as a result? I'll let you decide.

[denton]

Cossack, my problem is I have no basis for making a decision. I think the best bullets do kill more reliably than standard bullets, by quite a bit, all other factors equal. But how much more reliably??? A 21" wound channel certainly seems to have a better probability of quickly dispatching an animal than a 15" channel does.

Gerard, of GSCustom bullets says that professional hunters routinely use his bullets on animals up to 400 pounds, with a 243, and the animals pretty reliably fall down. He's seen a LOT of animals shot, and probably has a pretty good practical idea of how much bullet is required for how big an animal. Even as experienced as some of the people on this board are, we might have trouble coming up with a sample as large as his. Dutch is right. 100 animals with each of 2-3 different bullets is starting to be a good indicator. If I live to be 99, and hunt every year, I won't be anywhere close to finishing the test on the first bullet.

Now if you see me and Dutch out rounding up about 300 burros for an experiment, you'll know that a test is in progress!

[Dutchboy]

Oww, Denton, now you are just teasing and getting me worked up....

I have used GS customs on antelope and elk, and I like them a lot. However, if you shoot an elk in the brisket instead of in the heart, you still end up with a mile plus tracking job, even with the latest super duper wonder bullet. I found that out the hard way.

A fellow that used to be the GScustom distributor in the US had the habit of using a 224 TTH (IIRC) and 40 gr. GScustoms hrough hogs, and just absolutely flattened them. We're talking 4,000 plus (PLUS!) fps impact velocity, with a 40 gr. bullet! And, speaking of Denton's burro's, his former "neighbor", P.O. Ackley did quite a bit of experimenting, including shooting the Swift on burro's for varmint control. He was a champion for using extreme speed varmint cartridges (and varmint bullets) on medium big game.

What I do not like about the varmint bullet concept is due to my faith in Murphy. Sooner or later, especially with my shooting, I'm going to nail the shoulder, rather than the ribs. When that happens a frangible bullet will not get to the vitals. A mono-metal bullet, even a light weight one at warp 9, will just keep on trucking. Perhaps penetration will be a little less, but it will keep going long after that frangible bullet has cratered.

Heretofore, the only way you could get through that shoulder and into the pumphouse was by using a high SD bullet at slow to medium speed, which is why the 7x57, 6.5x55 are so highly regarded. They shot super long bullets through just about anything. In the moose study I mentioned, they could not find a statistically significant difference between the 6.5x55 and the 375 H&H. On MOOSE.

So, in my opinion, yes, you can turn a 243Win into a 7x57 by using an 85 gr. TSX. The end result is the same: a big enough hole all the way through. The antelope I mentioned was flattened by a 6ppc and a 68 gr. GSHV. Through and through, bang, flop. There are some benefits associated with the mono-metals, the most important to me are reduced wind drift and retained energy on target, and reduced bloodshot meat. FWIW, Dutch.

[denton]

The idea of using slower MV's to get deeper penetration is soooo counterintuitive, but the data from that bullet chart is pretty convincing. Of the six bullets I took specific notes on, four have better penetration at 2,500 fps than 3,000 fps. Barnes X is very constant... penetration is practically the same from 3100 to 2200 fps.

Yeah, Ackley was pretty miffed when he couldn't shoot burros anymore. And seriously annoyed when they made him quit using .17 caliber bullets for big game!

It's odd how your tastes change. I now think 6.5x55 and 7x57 are probably two of the best all around cartridges you can find.

For now, I've put Grand Slams in the 243, as my back-up gun for pronghorn this fall. If I can get it to shoot Barnes X's well, maybe I'll drop down to about 85 grains, and shoot those later on.

As I study that chart, it seems to me that, all other factors equal, bullet construction is a very important variable. I'm just trying to figure out how important.

[HPBTMTCH]

I have shot a lot of deer, and watched a lot of deer get shot. The .308 IMO is one of the best choices when recoil, accuracy, and putting the animal down quickly and not destroying a lot of meat is considered. I have`nt kept track if 100 deer were killed with each bullet or not, but here`s what i came up with. I tryed : Sierra match, 168, 155, Berger 155 match, red prarie 168 varmint, 147 gr. FMJ, nosler 180 partition, and 125 gr. BT. The matchkings are good, but when they run they probably go farther than anthing but the FMJ`s. The bergers are work very well, and are accurate. The red praries never exited, not once. Did pull a head shot that impacted on the nose and smashed it`s face so it had to have a follow up, looked like it got hit by a truck, (Mr. murphy was mentioned). The FMJ`s make a very large and surprising exit wound, IF it hits a bone going in, if not, they run a long way. The partitions will easily go through two deer, but they run pretty far when the range gets past 300 yards. The best bullet I`ve found for dropping deer in their tracks with a .308 is the 125 ballistic tip, no kidding. In all the broadside shots but one, they made an impressive exit wound. And the only one that did`nt, hit the shoulders and spine. BTW, a good way to ruin almost all the meat on a deer is to take a 30-378, and a 3500 fps 180 gr. failsafe or barnes X, shoot it at a slight angle hitting the front shoulder and exiting the hind quarter. I learned real quick about bloodshot meat and a lot of penetration.

[Dutchboy]

HP, for some styles of hunting, that 125 BT will work just fine. For stand hunting, where exact bullet placement is a given, I would not feel uncomfortable with it.

On the other hand, when chasing elk on public land, shooting is almost always hurried, from field positions, and at the angle presented, rather than the ideal broadside.

In those situations, that 125 Btip will just not get the job done consistently, where an equivalent x-bullet will. It will penetrate paunch or bone and keep going.

I assume everyone here has reviewed Harald's treatise on bullet performance (http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html). His experiments, and the experiments by Gary Sciuzietti (sp) that Denton mentioned have convinced me that a fast projectile, fired at a high rate of spin (for the bullet length) will produce the straightest, longest, most uniform wound channels.

In the end, when hunting my goal is to bring home meat constently and humanely. The light for caliber copper bullets may not kill as quickly as a BT to the ribcage, but they will put the animal down quickly, with a blood trail sufficient to guarantee recovery. FWIW, Dutch.

[L. Cooper]

I am sometimes impressed by the spectacular results from high velocity and small weights in some calibers, but, as a rapidly ageing hunter, I have become much more interested in reliability than showmanship. As a result I now load heavier bullets than I did in my reckless youth.

I have had too many "Murphy" experiences (as already mentioned) to be willing to rely on putting that bullet where it must go. I believe I can shoot, but hunting makes for difficult shooting very often, and when that happens I want a bullet that I know will not be another variable that can turn against me. I shoot premium grade bullets in whatever caliber at all living things.

I also have come to appreciate a good exit wound and the resulting blood to help track. It has proved its worth more than I would have liked.

[Rocky Raab]

Note that the recommendation of the 125 BT was for deer, not elk. And I'd amend it to say for smallish deer only.

I've used the 125 BT on deer, but only because I was shooting a 30 Herrett Contender. In my 308, I use nothing smaller than a 150-grain bullet.

I'm not completely sure I agree with denton's hypothesis: that premium bullets kill better. A standard bullet - if wisely chosen - can be 100% effective. The caveat there is the "wisely chosen" aspect.

Varmint bullets, target bullets and military bullets have NO place in the big game field. Period. They may work some of the time, but so might a 22 LR. Just because they might work once in a while does not mean they are appropriate for the job.

Standard bullets are perfect for standard calibers at reasonable velocities and ranges. That's precisely what they're designed for.

If you shoot a magnum, or shoot at very high velocities, or at long range, or perhaps even in unusual hunting conditions, premium bullets are the correct choice. That's what they are designed for.

[Dutchboy]

Well put, indeed.

I don't think that Denton is trying to say that premium bullets kill better, just that they have a far wider range of conditions where they are effective.

As mentioned, monometal bullets have a very similar penetration depth when impact velocities are varied from 1700 to 3100 fps.

I also think the following statement is warranted: monometal bullet performance is influenced much less by bullet weight than conventional bullets. On impact, a 130 gr. bullet is going to behave much like a 180 gr. bullet. Assuming the same velocity, the heavier bullet will penetrate deeper (it has more energy than the lighter bullet), but the change will be linear. With conventional bullets, a 130 will create an impact crater, vs. the long wound channel of a heavy for caliber 180.

Finally, to some, it may not matter, but if you attempt a 300 yard shot, the monometal bullet will carry about 10% more energy than a conventional bullet when it gets there. That's like stepping up from an '06 to a 300 mag, just by changing bullets! By cheating the air out of it's share of the bullet energy, the shooter can either step down in chambering (less recoil, less muzzle blast, longer barrel life), or elect to put more energy on target.

The point of all that is to say that I don't agree that the ONLY place for premiums (especially monometals) is in high velocity cartridges. They offer tangible benefits in all chamberings. JMO, Dutch.

[HPBTMTCH]

Sorry dutchboy, i did`nt have time to get to the point in the last post. The question was, do premium bullets like the failsafe`s and partitions kill faster than standard bullets. Now it`s been stated here before, dead is dead, and one can`t argue that. But how many seconds does it take for a given animal to expire is what i think the discussion is about. Okay, what i find is no, more explosive bullets kill faster. But as rocky stated, (just trying to save denton and dutch some burros, lol) my "study" is on deer weighing 200 LBS or less, and quietly eating undisturbed. Now there is a huge difference in a mature buck, pumped full of adrenilen running for his life. The 125 BT and similar bullets win, but not by much, in other words, put a projectile into the lungs, the animal will die. The 125`s at .308 velocity (3000 FPS) will exit any shot you want to take but the full on chest shot with deer 200 pounds or less. I will have to guess that was with somewhere around 150 deer killed, zero failures. It does`nt take a super premium bullet to kill a deer reliably and quickly, but if anybody wants to hold the stop watch and try to prove me wrong, i`m game, lol. While we`re here, rocky mentioned standard bullets and resonable velocities. Check this out. A 168 gr. red prarie bullet at 2600 fps will not exit a deer period. A 125 BT at 3000 fps will. Now add a 1000 fps to both bullets and shoot groundhogs. The 168 will absolutly vaporize one, the 125 will not exit, the skin will have stretch marks from the internal explosion, but no exit, go figure.

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by HPBTMTCH
Check this out. A 168 gr. red prarie bullet at 2600 fps will not exit a deer period. A 125 BT at 3000 fps will. Now add 1000 fps to both bullets and shoot groundhogs. The 168 will absolutely vaporize one...

Now that, my friends, is the most exciting part of this entire discussion.