Honest groups

[Gil Martin]

I was shooting at 100 yards with a Lyman Great Plains Rifle at the range when a chap came up to talk. I usually enjoy a chat and showed this fellow my smokepole. He asked what groups I had shot at 100 yards. I told him I was not have much success and ran out of elevation on the rear sight. He sneered and told me he shoots a T/C and gets 3/8" groups at 100 yards all the time. I told him I did not believe him. He became a bit agitated and walked away. I went back to shooting my muzzleloader.

Why do some folks become obnoxious regarding alleged very small groups they claim to shoot that would impress benchrest shooters? What's wrong with a 1", 2" or 3" group from a hunting arm? That's what I usually shoot and am happy. All the best...
Gil

[rattus58]

First off, since you didn't see his group, I'd be hesitant to tell the man I didn't believe him. A muzzleloader can easily best a centerfire with just a little time tweaking, and many times even out of a box, a muzzleloader makes centerfires look sick. My Super91 can out shoot my 308 easily, just not to 300 yards. My 30-30 isn't even in the same class as my White muzzleloaders ... my worst can out shoot it by several inches.

If you don't believe his representation, ask him to bring his gun down to the range sometime as you have never seen a 3/8" group and would love to see how he does it.

Aloha..

[Rustywreck]

There are three things a guy will lie about: 1) the gas mileage of their truck, 2)how tight their groups are 3) and the size of their...

Seriously, I don't shoot my ML out to 100 yards too often, but at 50 yards I had three round ball holes touch each other (off a bench).
It certainly can be done

[Gil Martin]

I can be convinced and usually have an open mind. I have spent many hours at the club range and have never see that fellow out there. I agree that a gun can be tuned up to do some amazing things. My point is that very few shooters seem to fess up to groups over 1 inch where most of mine are located. All the best...
Gil

[bfoster]

I'm as skeptical as Gil. The really able rifleman I've shot with are more apt to talk about the mistakes
they've made than the best groups they've shot. I've never met a capable rifleman that "sneered" at the
results obtained by others. It's just too easy to recall challanges met, and the ones we are trying to meet
as we work toward a bit more proficiency.

A T/C? 3/8" groups @ 100 yards? Well, a group of 2 shots, or perhaps a nice cloverleaf out of 20
shots, the rest showing normal dispersion.

Factory barrels today are good, but I've never seen one that would match the best barrels made by
master barrelmakers, past or present. I'll admit, like the monkey with a typewriter eventually writing a
Shakespeare sonnet, there may be a few near perfect factory barrels out there, but they are very few
and very far between. Don't get me started on the subject of stocks and the way they are usually fitted
to factory rifles... Yes, the gent could own a "freak" perfect rifle, but I don't think it very likely.

Below are some of the problems I've faced in shooting groups with rifles antique and modern-

I've never had the good fortune to own a Brockway or Schoyen percussion rifle, I do own a Ballard
that was set up for Schüetzen benchrest, it has a Zischang barrel in very close to perfect condition.
Alas, I don't have the original bullet mould. "Retro-engineering" from the chamber and throat I've come
up with a servicable bullet- My better 200 yard groups are in the neighborhood of 1½". My smallest
five shot group (so far) is 1.05" @ 200 yards, a very, very long way from C.W. Rowland's record of 10
shots into ¾" @ 200 yards (shot by this master rifleman using a Stevens-Pope). Sure, it's considerably
easier to shoot tight groups at 100 yards than 200 yards, but I don't think that I can shoot 3/8" groups on
demand @ 100 yards, even given perfect range conditions. Heck, if the wind isn't steady or if there's
heavy mirage "running" I can't invariably shoot 3/8" groups with my 6 PPC- occasionally I'll miss a
change in conditions (or run into "time trouble" or any of the many other possible "pitfalls") and flub the
group. This from a rifle that often does produce five shot groups in the "ones", and a helped me steer a
single group into the "zeros".

Shooting cast bullets is (at least for me) much more challanging than shooting jacketed bullets- the lower
velocity means that a hands on approach is just about mandatory (forget about shooting "free recoil").
Then, there are the bullets themselves. Assuming that I've got the alloy right (that can be "iffy") on my best
days, after rejecting visually imperfect bullets, I find that I'm able to cast only about 30% of the bullets I
run to within ± 0.1 grains of the weight I've found to shoot best. Then I have to check the weight of the
lube. And there's cleaning between shots- have I failed to do something consistently? Then there's the
human element: it's just plain difficult to do everything exactly the same each and every time, while
making the necessary changes for variable conditions. If shooting from a "modern" type rest, is the rifle
positioned just the same for each shot? By the way, I don't dismiss the barrel rests the old timers used
with heavy barreled rifles- I've found them to be much better with heavy barreled rifles shooting soft
cast bullets than the pundits and authorities would generally have us believe...

Powder charges- for short range, say 200 or 300 yards, I don't worry about them. I can't shoot a
difference between the duplex charge that the old Ideal #6 throws for the 32-47, or what the Harrell
throws for the 6 PPC when carefully tested against powder charges weighed to 0.02 grains. Medium to
long range shooting with smokeless powders is a different story (vertical dispersion); I regret to
say that I haven't tried long range shooting with cast bullets over black powder- I just haven't found a
suitable rifle, percussion or black powder cartridge, that's "whispered 'try me.' " And the powder
itself: after fourty odd years of shooting both black and smokeless I don't know if one type is inherently
more "accurate" than the other- I haven't been able to produce better results with cast bullets by using
smokeless powders in very short cases than I get with black powder in black powder cases. So many
things yet to try, and so little life left in which to try them... and so much yet to learn.

Bob

[Adam Helmer]

Gil,

You make some good points and rattus58 does as well, as usual. I would agree with rattus and ask the guy to come to range next Saturday to shoot some of those groups. Take your spotting scope and observe his shooting technique, you may learn something. What caliber T/C does he shoot and is it cap or flint? Is that patched ball or conicals? How many shots per .375" group?

One thing I will say, we all get a tight group now and then and they go into the shooting journal. As for "always getting 3/8" groups," I would like to see that done in view of light conditions, wind, powder lot variances and shooter error.

Adam

[rattus58]

Hi Gil,

It matters little what someone says. It is more important what they do. Talk is cheap therapy for the insecure.

Great shooters generally will ALWAYS try to promote the sport, help others as much as they can, and will almost always share their "secrets".

Great hunters are not always great shooters. In fact in my experience, most good hunters have trouble shooting at targets, but they are OK with what they shoot because they know where they have to put it.

Generally I tend to ignore comments of others and prefer to "Wow... thats really great shooting... would you mind showing me how you do it? I can see I can learn a lot from you. Will you be out here again next weekend?" You might never see this dude again, or, you might be surprised ... but I agree with Adam and a couple of the others, a great shooter never sneers at the shooting of others.

Aloha.. Tom

[quigleysharps4570]

I'm thinking that with a rifle like that and his capabilities...there'd a been some "I'll bring that ole rifle out and let ya see what she can do" type scenario. No sneering.

[Mad_Jack]

First, a question for Mr Martin. Are you the Gil Martin that whirlies round up in the air, and is married to a fine seamstress named Kit? If so, I'm the Mad Buffalo Jack that was from the Wash. Co Buckskinners group. If not, no worry.
I get the small group statements from guys at the range, a lot, especially when I'm shooting my flinters. I'm like some of these other guys, I always offer to meet up with them sometime to shoot and exchange info, if they'd be of a mind too.
Then, I proceed to shoot offhand, at novelty targets I always carry along. Bottle caps on a toothpic, plastic dinnerware; you know what I mean. Cut a card, then a second, third etc. Tell them you practice because this is what your competition is. Then offer those guys a target to play at. This way you don't have to say anything. The word gets around.
I've been at the range, put up a novelty, and someone will say,"You must be the guy they talk about at the club." This is my way of tooting off. But you have bad and good days. We all know how that is. You have to be satisfied with your own abilities and have the confidence to know it was you and not the gun or lock or whatever.

[Gil Martin]

Welcome to the Board. I am not the same Gil Martin that has a wife named Kit. I was married and lived in Indiana County back in the 1980s.

I enjoy shooting my flintlocks, introducing new shooters to the sport and exchanging information with fellow shooters at the range. I will use the "Wow! That's some great shooting" the next time someone tells me they shoot one-hole groups at 100 yards all the time. Take care. All the best...
Gil