i never under stood the 3 shot group therapy

[Evan03]

Ive kinda always been of the thinking that you should shoot the # of rounds into a group as your mag holds.

so ive alwyas fired atleast 4 shot groups because most 3006 bolt actions hold 4 in the belly.

but all my rifles usualy get run out atleast a few times hooting 10 shot groups or till i decide the barrel might start warping.

why shoot 3 shot groups outa the heavy varmit rig when your gona turn around and shoot 50 ground squrels in 10 minutes. why not kinda duplicate this on paper.

3 shot groups just dont make since. in thereticl hunting situations they do make sence. in the real world i dont think so. i dont even think 4 shots is enough to tell what a rifle can do.

in my way of thinking 10 into 1" at 100yds and a hot barrel at the end of those 10 is better than 3 into 3/8 and cool barrel.

i just dont understand

maybe its just me. for some reason when i get this good group going while shootin my 2506 i dont want to stop. i either keep pushn bullets down range till im out of ammo im testiing or i start feeling the barrel get real hot.

however at site in i dont fire alot of rounds i fire maybe 10rds. a few to get to where i want it then 4 5 or 6 rds after that top make sure my groups is floating about an inch high at 100.

ahhh i guess thats a lie. ill normaly push atleast a few groups after im good and sited in.

when testing loads ill load no less than 5 of string. some times ill go out with 15 rds and 3 difrent loads. even this i dont care for because i may be haveing bad day when im testing loads and not be knowing for sure if i happen to shoot good group with my worst load on accident and pulled the shots when i tested that dream load.

i dont see one group being very good test but i cant stand reloading the less the testing the bedder.

this is all about hunting anyways so i guys the 3 shot group therapy does work. i say therapy because i think most people can get lucky and shoot 3 shot tiny group. i know i can. alot of times 4 and 5 will pull the group. 6 and 7 go right for the money and 8 and 9 make it alittle bigger. then by the time you shoot number 10 all the other bullets have a put big hole in the paper so you just kinda fling 10 in there and hope it doesnt fly way they heck out there.

if the 1st goes within 1.5"s of the 10th shot i think then thats something to talk about.

Evan

[Andy L]

Three shot group therapy is a twelve step, self help group that meets on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Its for people that cant shoot a three shot cloverleaf, they always have a flier and it really gets to their heads.

Your assigned a buddy in case you flip out while shooting and you can call your buddy to come and try to put that third one in there for you. Like most group therapy sessions, you can never quit once you start or you will backslide and begin to shoot a flier every time.

Good luck with your three shot therapy Evan.



Andy

[TreeDoc]

Dang....you beat me to it, Andy!

I need therapy too!

[gumpokc]

Methinks Andy hit it on the head, but it could go back alot further than that....

remembe the old saying, first time is luck, second time is coincidence, third time is deliberate, ..

or third time is the charm.


granted i agree with Evan, since i'd be a hell of alot more impressed with soemone who could shoot a 20 shot 1/2 inch group at 100 yard, than with someone who could not break 3 shots in the same area.

[Evan03]

i think from now on we all post no less than 5 shot groups.

a few guys out there might have #1 pencil barrels then ill make an exsception. these guys can continue to push 1 2 and 3 shot groups. so there barrel doesnt look like speggetti. all others push 5

we then might begin to see the average keyboard group grow alittle. this is not bad thing by any strech. i think groups would grow but become more consistent.


now that the 3 shot group therapy has begun, what do you think?




Evan

[Catfish]

I get my best groups with 1 shot groups. Seems like the more shots I shoot the bigger my groups get.

[Andy L]

Wheres the meetins gonna be Evan? I know alot of guys that need therapy.

Seriously, there is more bunk that flys on the net as to group size when shooting than you can shake a stick at. Ive never, ever seen so many expert shooters in my life that can cosistantly shoot in the .2s and .3s in my life of shooting at ranges and with friends, until a got a computer.

I felt inferior at first. I know I cant do that good. Then, I began to listen and think more and guess what? There still arent many that can consistantly do it.

However, I do have a 300 Win Mag that will shoot a .21 group every time. (Its only a one shot group and it requires sanding down the bullet to .21 and shimming it in the case neck though.)


Andy

Edit: I also got a chuckle the other day on another forum when a guy claimed he had a 22-250AI that would shoot, I think he said around 5500fps. Thats kinda funny when Mr Shaun Frame explained to me that that is against the laws of physics. Main reason is gas cannot be pushed that fast out of the barrel. That would mean he could kill a coyote somewhere around 5 minutes before he could see it.

[PJgunner]

Let's get real here. At one time, during the reign of the likes of Phil Sharpe and Col. Townsend Whelen, ten shot groups were the standard for testing a rifle. Then, it became five shot groups and now three has become the norm.
Ten shots is not realistic, nor are five shots, at least with the average hunting rifle.
I have a friend who is a dedicated target shooter, even to the point of competing at camp Perry. He insists that only ten shot groups can tell you what a rifle is capable of producing. He rails at me constantly when I do three shot groups with say my .308 Win.
My testing is more geared to hunting that outright target shooting, so I load up three rounds, take aim, shoot, reload shoot, and reload and shoot again. Not one to five minute wait between shots for the barrel to cool. After all, no deer will wait around while you wait for your barrel to cool down. Any groups under 1.25" is good enough. Almost all my rifles will beat that standard. Of course, your gun rag "egg-spurts" will wait as they have to make the guns and bullets look good.
Now my varmint rifles are expected to give a higher standard of accuracy. They must shoot ten shots under a dime in good conditions. They do.
For cast bullet shooting, things get interesting. The first five shots are usually under an inch when I have a good day. But I usually am shooting 50 shot groups with cast bullets. Now these are bullets that are carefully cast, weighed, gas checked, very carefully lubed and sized, powder charges weighed, brass also weighed, basically verything possible to insure as much uniformity as possible. Shots are space one minute apart in the winter and two minutes apart in the spring and fall and three minutes apart in the summer to insure that the barrel heat doesn't get out of hand. Rifle is a heavy barrel .308 Savage 110. Even with taking the time to regulate barrel heat, it's quite interesting to see the group gradually open up to about three and a half inches by the time you're done shooting that string. It makes no difference whether I clean after every ten shots or dry brush after every ten shots or just don't bother cleaning, the results are, for all practical purposes the same. My target shooting friend also likes to shoot cast bullets and I've gotten him into competing against me shooting the 50 shot group. He beats me most of the time, but usually there's less than a quarter inch difference in the groups. My rifle is an off the shelf Savage 110 silhouette rifle and his is a custom match grade Remington 700 with Canjar single set trigger. Kind of like me running a Volkswagon Beetle against the cars used in the Indy 500.
Still, every man should be allowed to scratch his fleas in the manner which serves him best. Elmer keith said that. So if a three shot group does it for you, great. Five shots? OK. Ten shots? Why not, if it makes you happy. I only stated what works for me and why. Your results may vary.
Paul B.

[HPBTMTCH]

I shoot 3 shot groups just because i can`t afford to shoot 10 rounds at paper, lol. My accuracy test is if a couple 3 shot groups go into around a half inch, then it`s off to shoot some one shot groups at crows and groundhogs. If i hit 9 out of ten at crows at 300 yards, i figure the load is a keeper.

[Dutchboy]

We are talking about two different things, here. Finding a load, and proving a load.

Three shot groups work just great to weed out "bad" loads. If you shoot three shots, and it's a 1.5 MOA endeavor, it has been my experience that shooting two or seven more times rarely improves the group! If you are looking for MOA, and three shots gives you 2 moa, chances are slim (statistically) to none that you are on the tail of a hot load. Sure, once in a hundred groups, you make a bad call. However, when you are in the middle of an incremental work-up, you get to see the "nodes" pretty quickly, even with 3 shot groups. If the rifle is at all accurate, that is.

On the other hand, once you are dialed in to a "potential" load, things change in a hurry.

In the past, "the standard" was 10 shot groups. The current bench rest standard is an "aggregate", or the average of five, five shot groups. This is statistically a little more robust than the 10 shot group, as a single flier has less influence. FWIW, Dutch.

[Evan03]

did some 3 shot therapy with the 2506 this evening. two crows. first one at about 100yds. dumped it. second fflew off and landed at 248 paces. then alittle ways down the road i notice a badger running for his hole. screech to stop and layed over the bipod and dumped him. paced to 98 yds.

pretty good evening for some 3 shot therapy

Evan

[Evan03]

2 shots 2 coyotes tonight. turned into one heck of an evening.

[royinidaho]

Well, hmmmmmm,

In my br days 5 shot groups were the test of the complete system once the load was selected. By system I mean me and all of the stuff around or touching.

Now I'm down to 3 shot groups for my paper/hunting rifles. When I'm "on" I get a group in the 1s, did that once. Also once I got a 2s group. Both 3 shots. I just couldn't stand the mental pressure that goes with attempting to put 4 and 5 in there.

Most groups run in the 5s/6s/7s for 3 shots when I'm really trying.

What I'm gonna try next is 1 shot at a time over a period of days at no closer than 200 yds at paper. This would give me a better feel for how the 'system' is working.

W/the 375 Win, 1 shot groups are manditory. Thus all my groups with that one are in the 3s.

Guess I best get with the varmint hunting or Evan03 will have 'em all dead.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

For really testing the capabilty of your rifles and loads you need to use the Master target system. With this you put two targets up one placed exactly over the other. Once sighted in and and shoot two groups onto the top target, how many in those groups is up to you but it should be 3 shot minimum. Then carefully retrieve the targets and mark the bottom one "Master" write the information about the load weather, temp etc on the top target and file them carefully away. you are done for today.

In a week or so take the Master and put a new fresh target carefully placed over the master and fire one group, then again write the info down on the top target and file them carefully away. Repeat this over a few months and you will have the true accuracy potential of your rifle and load. You will also notice how what you previously called fliers are not actually so but part of the rifles normal grouping as the filers will dissappear into the overall group on your Master target.

Have fun