We are less than 5% of the muzzleloader hunters?

[Adam Helmer]

In the October 2005 issue of "Outdoor Life" on page 78, Ralph Lermayer has an article, "A Fab Five of Muzzleloaders" where he describes five in-line arms. His lead paragraph says,"Before 1985, nearly all muzzleloader hunters carried traditional sidelock guns. Today, more than 95% of them pack in-lines."

I would like to see Mr. Lermayer's footnote on that "more than 95%" figure and have sent him an email requesting same. Here in PA in the October ML season "any Muzzleloader" is legal, but after Christmas until mid-January it is "Flintlocks Only."

At our club, I would say that in-lines make up 50-60% of the muzzleloaders on the firing line. Do we really make up less than 5% of the muzzleloader hunters?

Adam

[Jack]

I gotta wonder about that 95% figure. Just doing an eyeball survey of what I see in the woods during NY's muzzle loader season..... well, let's say I'm highly sceptical of that number.

[kt]

i think it would be fair to say a much larger number own and shoot a flinter from time to time. but yes here in PA it would be likely more flinters are around. I love being in the january woods with only 5% of the others!
kt

[Gil Martin]

I once heard a fellow comment on surveys and polls and he said,.. "if they did not ask me, it is not a valid poll". Not sure where Ralph did his survey. I would agree that in-lines have made deep inroads into the traditional muzzleloading ranks, but we that retained our sidelocks are certainly more than 5 percent. All the best...
Gil

[quigleysharps4570]

Take a poll here and see what it's like...just out of curiosity.

[skeet]

I can tell you that here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland that the vast majority of frontstuffers use inlinesd. I sell the darn things. In the last 5 yrs I have sold exactly 5 sidelock guns...and only 1 was new...the others were trade ins. In opposition I sold 23 Savage(just the one brand mind you) 10ML guns last year alone. The muzzleloading fraternity here is almost all comprised of hunters.... and the inlines are much better hunting arms...maybe I should say more reliable. It's like archery... Now we have people getting into the crossbow thing. They mostly learn very quickly that they are still shooting a bow. No real added range...just easier to aim. But for hunting the inlines have it all over the sidelocks in reliability and ease of use with scopes etc as well as the pellet thingies and 209 primers
Maryland is kind of overrun with deer and the DNR here wants to make it as easy as possible for the everyday Joe to be able to get his deer...if he can find a place to hunt

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

Great responses. I wonder if a poll on the "Traditional Muzzleloader" site would be fair and representative. I will say that most of the inline users I see are younger folks. Us older guys are sidelock users to a larger extent.

I have not heard back from Mr Lemayer about his "statistic" and how he arrived at his numbers. Stay tuned.

Adam

[quigleysharps4570]

Originally posted by skeet
But for hunting the inlines have it all over the sidelocks in reliability and ease of use with scopes etc as well as the pellet thingies and 209 primers

Reliability...I must be an odd duck...my sidelock has always went off. Matter of fact...it set over a week loaded and through 2 rain days in the field this season. Went off like it was supposed to. Ease of use...they gotta dump powder and ball down the barrel just like I do. Probably even get a percussion cap on quicker than them. On another note...clean-up. Pretty quick with hot soapy water and don't have to try different solutions to scrub plastic out of a barrel. Believe I'll stick with the ole trusty sidelock.

[kt]

adam, you could always put the poll in the anything goes section, you have MODERATOR Power!
just makes sure there is a section for me that says "I enjoy both inlines and flinters" (check this box)
kt

[skeet]

QS 4570... Just seems as though you are just a stick in the mud ol fuddy duddy. . Actually I like my ol Hawken a lot and have shot a few deer with it. Left it loaded(no cap) for over a month once...fired right on time.

The new Savage though is a real easy one to use... clean it every 100 shots or so. I really do hate cleaning the Hawken. I also have an original Pennsylvania rifle that was given to me. I shoot it occasionally..just to keep it going. It was originally a flinter that was changed over to caplock a long time ago. It is a bear to clean cause ya have to get the stock off which ain't easy.

It just seems as though the ease of use and familiar configuration is an incentive to get new and younger shooters into the game...Yep....except for a few diehards, at this time the flinter and sidelock guns are effectively a thing of the past...again!!

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I read recently that Pennsylvania Rifles should not be taken apart for cleaning because many are pinned and stock removal causes excess wear. I would be real careful with a genuine antique as your gun surely is. Hope this helps.

Adam

[Deerman]

I like my sidelock but hunt with some inliners.To each his own.

[12ga]

Skeet, this is not intended in any way to be any sort of critism, it is just a couple of questions about marketing practices and sales strategies.

In many years of observation as a gun shop customer I have to be honest and say most gun dealers have little or no marketing plan.

I understand you sold five sidelocks, four being trade-ins and one was a new gun. My two questions are about how many sidelocks did you stock, new or used, and how many of those stocked traditional guns failed to sell?

If you sold all the sidelocks that came into the shop, that's a 100% sales record for a niche market product. If I were in the gun sales racket in that market, I'd have jumped on that market like a duck on a grasshopper.

Thanks,

12 Ga.

[skeet]

As far as a marketing strategy..well I have one..Very simple in fact. You learn over a period of time what sells and what doesn't. Don't sell what doesn't move. I know that sounds simplistic but all retailers use that one.. I also use another... I try to sell items that will be a coming thing...such as the Savage Muzzle loader. People don't for the most part want to have to work at their favorite sport...muzzleloaders included. Cleaning is a chore to most... Not necessarily bad but just a tedious task. Quite honestly I have sold 17 of the Savage smokeless muzzloaders so far this year(since July). Surprisingly 12 of the people who bought the Savage guns are first time muzzleloaders. I stress the fact that they can use Black, Pyrodex,Triple 7 and smokeless in these guns. Most have bought triple seven to use in them.??? I really don't know why but they do. But I think the fact that they can use anything in the gun is a deciding factor as well as the familiarity of the bolt action type gun. Another factor is all weather useability. We have a fair amount of rain and bad weather during the winter so people like the closed action 209 primers etc. Yes with the right marketing strategy...you can almost sell anything..but going with the flow surely makes it easier. Another factor in the whole mess is the unsteady availability of black powder here in Md. The Peoples Republic doesn't want people to have an explosive ya know.

Now...I happen to have a Lyman 50 cal Flinter A 50 cal Hawken (TC) and a pretty little TC Seneca 45 cal with an extra 36 cal bbl. All are as new but used...gotta try to sell them just to be rid of them...Flinter I've had for 4 yrs!!! And I'm not going to give them away.

The Pennsylvania rifle is pinned to the stock..and it is a bear to get off. But it seems to have been designed to remove. Surprisingly that little rifle is really long...but so well balanced it is a dream to shoot....and a nightmare to clean

[skeet]

As an aside from the foregoing post... Shooters are really traditionalist for the most part. Most like steel and wood in their guns.. Plastic stocks are starting to sell pretty well but so many people coming into the muzzleloading sport are coming in because of the increased chances for hunting. Many are newer frontstuffers as i said and they will buy what is most familiar to them. I refuse to try to sell things to people that they don't need or anything that will not suit them in the long run. It doesn't pay to try to force things on people...espcially things that won't make them happy. The US automakers did that back in the 60's and 70's and the Foreign makers made inroads on the American market that seem to be widening even today. Of course I market things in a traditional sense with loss leaders etc..but those are things to get people to come into the shop. Happy people come back Unhappy people are gone